Early Model 60 variants, 3" barrels, with new pics

PeteC · #1 09-17-2020, 01:51 PM

Does anyone know what the early Model 60, stainless variants were, especially regarding 3" barrels? See example below.

I do have the SCSW book, but it is a little vague, especially when it comes to the 3" barrels. The book does not mention 3" barrels until a "limited production run" in 1972.

Thanks.

texmex · #2 09-17-2020, 02:02 PM

The 3 inch I have is a 60-10. It has adjustable sights. I have had it for over 30 years.

80sgyrene · #3 09-17-2020, 02:35 PM

Mine is a 60-3 Ladysmith

Hondo44 · #4 09-17-2020, 03:08 PM

First we need to know what model # is stamped on the frame with the cyl swung out. The serial # will help a lot to know when it was made. The pinned barrel ony indicates it was made before 1982.

The Mod 60-1 produced in 1972 with 3" heavy barrel had square butt grip frames, but yours looks like a rd butt. Is yours in that serial # range, R56962 - R57239?

Yours has a wide trigger that's polished which was likely a replacement. It's possible the 3" barrel is also a replacement.

linde · #5 09-17-2020, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

First we need to know what model # is stamped on the frame with the cyl swung out. The serial # will help a lot to know when it was made. The pinned barrel ony indicates it was made before 1982.

There was a special run of 3" Model 60s with heavy barrel and square butt produced for John Jovino (major S&W dealer in New York) . . . but that was in 1984 so they did not have the pinned barrel. The serial number range was AEU, AEV & I believe some in AEW.

Russ

PeteC · #6 09-17-2020, 04:57 PM

@linde, no, not part of that special production run (pinned barrel, small S&W on left side, the one you posted a pic of looks awesome, but not the same).

@Hondo44: Six digit s/n, 516xxx

Anyway, what I was more interested in was whether and when they made them with a 3" barrel, was it from the beginning, did they stop and start later, etc. The SCSW book is not very specific on that. I did find a mention the two different triggers, and some being chromed v. case hardened.

two-bit cowboy · #7 09-17-2020, 05:04 PM

Hmmm. That serial number is intriguing.

Is there a "J" in front of the numbers?

PeteC · #8 09-17-2020, 05:20 PM

No "J". If you have the SCSW book, look on page 260, right hand column, 3rd bullet point. It looks to me like the serial number is in that range.

However, I have no idea if they actually made ANY of those with a 3" barrel, aside from the "special" production runs.

Hondo44 · #9 09-17-2020, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

@Hondo44: Six digit s/n, 516xxx

Anyway, what I was more interested in was whether and when they made them with a 3" barrel, was it from the beginning, did they stop and start later, etc. The SCSW book is not very specific on that. I did find a mention the two different triggers, and some being chromed v. case hardened.

The Model 60 was introduced in 1965 and your serial # indicates it's an early one, pre 1969 when the R prefix to the serial # was introduced after # 786544. So yours is a Mod 60 pre dash #, most likely from 1967 to 1968.

There were no 3" models produced until 1972 as the Model 60-1. That and the John Jovino special run were the only 3" heavy regular barrel production before the Lady Smith in 1989 as the 60-6 with 2" and 3" heavy barrel.

Then the limited production run of 3" full-underlug barrel target models were offered in 1990 as the Mod 60-4.

The 3" standard style heavy barrel was discontinued in 1992.

After that we only see 3" barrels of the full-underlug style.

Now having said all that, there's always the possibility that yours was special ordered with 3" barrel, but only an Historical Letter will confirm it.

Is there a factory rework date stamp on the left side of the grip frame near the bottom under the grip? That could indicate it was sent back to the factory for a barrel change after the 3" was introduced on the 60-1 in 1972.

Hope that helps,

Sgt911 · #10 09-17-2020, 06:12 PM

those pictures look familiar

Hondo44 · #11 09-17-2020, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

No "J". If you have the SCSW book, look on page 260, right hand column, 3rd bullet point. It looks to me like the serial number is in that range.

Yes pg. 260 in the 4th edition, your serial # is in that range from 1965 to 1969, and yours does have the satin finish with flash chromed hammer and trigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

However, I have no idea if they actually made ANY of those with a 3" barrel, aside from the "special" production runs.

The book says 2" only, so they didn't make 3" as regular production. Again if special ordered, only a Letter would be of help, not the book.

PeteC · #12 09-17-2020, 06:42 PM

@Hondo44, yes, thanks very much, that was exactly what I wanted to know,

. See below, I believe that illustrates what you said.

holo · #13 09-17-2020, 06:45 PM

here is my 60-4 full under lug

1chessiefan · #14 09-17-2020, 07:06 PM

Dear Friends,
I have had two model 60-3s with 3” heavy barrels. I still have one. The one I recently traded was a DAO with factory bobbed hammer.

1chessiefan

Hondo44 · #15 09-17-2020, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

@Hondo44, yes, thanks very much, that was exactly what I wanted to know,

. See below, I believe that illustrates what you said.

Well Pete, your Mod 60-1 may be an anachronism. And if so, likely a bit rare. Not that we haven't seen examples of other models like this from S&W.

But that could explain your 3" barrel, with rd butt and in its serial # range. Chances are we'd find out from a Letter that your gun w/o an R prefix and obviously from the pre 1969 old serial range was not produced when it's serial # would normally suggest in '67-'68. It's clearly a rd butt frame from that era that was not model # stamped nor assembled until after the regular production run of the Mod 60-1 begun in 1972.

Did you look for a date stamp?

Hondo44 · #16 09-17-2020, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1chessiefan

Dear Friends,
I have had two model 60-3s with 3” heavy barrels. I still have one. The one I recently traded was a DAO with factory bobbed hammer.

1chessiefan

Likely an overrun gun for the NYCPD order in 1987 or since the entire order of 2500 was returned to the factory, one of the actual order. The order was for 2" barrels but we know at least one was reported to have a 3" barrel installed. And if there's was one, there's likely more.

PeteC · #17 09-17-2020, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Well Pete, your Mod 60-1 may be an anachronism....

LOL, maybe. Or, someone found an unfinished frame on the shelf when they were making the -1, and some order was short a piece or two. If the factory reworked the NYPD Model 60's, they would easily have done this one.

I'll do my best to look into it, and the first step would be to find out when it actually shipped, but I found out what I wanted, and thanks again!

Ibmikey · #18 09-18-2020, 08:55 AM

My 60 is a Jovino special that had the department star engraved on the side plate. I ordered a couple of dozen as I remember for members of the department, can’t remember the year but probably early eighties.

Hondo44 · #19 09-18-2020, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibmikey

My 60 is a Jovino special that had the department star engraved on the side plate. I ordered a couple of dozen as I remember for members of the department, can’t remember the year but probably early eighties.

Which dept star is that?

Ibmikey · #20 09-20-2020, 01:32 PM

Hondo, The dept is Fairfield Police in Ca. About 120 sworn personnel.

Chop · #21 09-21-2020, 06:27 PM

Model 60-4.....un-fluted cylinder

lawandorder · #22 09-25-2020, 04:07 PM

How about a model 60 3 inch ( with no dash present ) sn# in the AEU range bearing what appears to be ordinance bombs in 3 places.

Walter Rego · #23 09-25-2020, 05:43 PM

Looks good to me. I like the 3" Model 36's. A buddy has one and I found it to be much easier to shoot than the 1 7/8" standard J frames. That extra inch doesn't seem to make any difference in concealablity but undoubtedly helps get a bit more needed velocity out of a load.

.357magger · #24 09-25-2020, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by holo

here is my 60-4 full under lug

The 60-4 is, for me, THE perfect carry J frame. Small enough to conceal pretty much anywhere, large enough to accurately hit almost anywhere.

I've been on the losing end of several auctions over the last few years searching for one.

But eventually, I'll acquire.

Thanks for sharing yours.

linde · #25 09-25-2020, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawandorder

How about a model 60 3 inch ( with no dash present ) sn# in the AEU range bearing what appears to be ordinance bombs in 3 places.

Does it have a square butt? AEU s/n pefix makes it sound like one of the Jovino special run . . . or one that got tacked onto or diverted from that run . . . possibly for evaluation by DOD???

Most interesting . . . would love to hear more . . . oh yes, and pictures!

Russ

6GUNSONLY · #26 09-25-2020, 06:06 PM

Second the desirability of the 60-4. I love mine. I did NOT want a .357 J-frame and had seen a buddy's 60-4. Not long afterward I ran across one with box and all at the Birmingham Alabama gunshows. Got it for $500 which seemed a lot at the time but good luck finding one for that now. A standard 2" no dash 60 is my EDC gun.

linde · #27 09-28-2020, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawandorder

How about a model 60 3 inch ( with no dash present ) sn# in the AEU range bearing what appears to be ordinance bombs in 3 places.

With permission of lawandorder I am posting pictures of markings on his model 60.

Will the experts please offer your opinions on what these marks mean.

Russ

PatriotX · #28 09-28-2020, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linde

With permission of lawandorder I am posting pictures of markings on his model 60.

Will the experts please offer your opinions on what these marks mean.

Russ

I believe those to be European proof marks, as several countries require them.

[not an expert, those should be along shortly]

PeteC · #29 09-28-2020, 12:47 PM

"WISCHO" is/was a trade name for Wilsker & Co. located in the city of Erlangen in West Germany. They were a large importer and distributor in Europe.

PeteC · #30 10-01-2020, 11:14 PM

The revolver that made me ask about the early Model 60 3" in the first place, is the one I posted pics of above. More detailed description:

Model 60-1
Pinned 3" heavy barrel
s/n 516xxx (no "R" prefix)
Round butt
Ramp front sight
Notch rear sight
Small S&W trademark on left side
Narrow service hammer
Smooth combat trigger
Assembly numbers match
No obvious rework stamp
No date stamp on grip frame

It does not seem to match any of the special runs like Ashland or Jovino, or the reworked NYCPD version, or early Lady Smith version of 1989.

So what is it?

two-bit cowboy · #31 10-02-2020, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

So what is it?

"It" is worth $100 for a letter.

vrichard · #32 10-05-2020, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

The revolver that made me ask about the early Model 60 3" in the first place, is the one I posted pics of above. More detailed description:

Model 60-1
Pinned 3" heavy barrel
s/n 516xxx (no "R" prefix)
Round butt
Ramp front sight
Notch rear sight
Small S&W trademark on left side
Narrow service hammer
Smooth combat trigger
Assembly numbers match
No obvious rework stamp
No date stamp on grip frame

It does not seem to match any of the special runs like Ashland or Jovino, or the reworked NYCPD version, or early Lady Smith version of 1989.

So what is it?

I kind of remember that there were appr.200 made.They are a
high $ S&W now.
Dick

Bhfromme · #33 02-25-2021, 03:38 PM

My 60-15 is an enigma as well. S&W made so many changes to the Model 60 over the years that even the authors of the SWSC seemed to have trouble keeping it all straight.

murphydog · #34 02-25-2021, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

The revolver that made me ask about the early Model 60 3" in the first place, is the one I posted pics of above. More detailed description:

Model 60-1
Pinned 3" heavy barrel
s/n 516xxx (no "R" prefix)
Round butt
Ramp front sight
Notch rear sight
Small S&W trademark on left side
Narrow service hammer
Smooth combat trigger
Assembly numbers match
No obvious rework stamp
No date stamp on grip frame

It does not seem to match any of the special runs like Ashland or Jovino, or the reworked NYCPD version, or early Lady Smith version of 1989.

So what is it?

Missed this thread on the first go-around.

Two possibilities that come to mind. Given the serial number, it could be a hard chromed model 36-1 that was somehow mis-stamped as a 60-1. The other option would be a very early 3” model 60, but this would have been six years before anyone at the factory would have thought of making this (-1) engineering change.

Did you wind up getting a letter?

dnater · #35 02-25-2021, 05:50 PM

The way the barrel rib doesn’t match up with the frame, my impression is the barrel is a replacement. Red ramp also points to custom work/modifications.

viceunit · #36 02-26-2021, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnater

The way the barrel rib doesn’t match up with the frame, my impression is the barrel is a replacement. Red ramp also points to custom work/modifications.

I had to pull out my 36-1 HB 3” and believe you are correct in the barrel/frame relationship. No beveled frame corners on the 3”.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

colt_saa · #37 02-26-2021, 04:32 PM

This one is only about 25 years old.

This is product code 102432. It is called the "Small Hunter"

182 of these were produced for Lew Horton Distributors back in 1997. The revolver originally shipped with Uncle Mikes rubber finger groove grips

I put the Factory rosewood grips on it after buying it

PeteC · #38 02-26-2021, 06:48 PM

I did not get a letter, no. I was hoping someone else with the same gun would pop up sooner or later, and then I moved on to something else (odd little strays seem to just find me, not out looking for them, lol).

From what I have been reading the lead time for a letter is very long right now and even memberships are not getting processed very quickly (mine seems to be lost in space, and I am thinking of just resubmitting it). I think I can wait until they catch up,

PeteC · #39 02-26-2021, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnater

The way the barrel rib doesn’t match up with the frame, my impression is the barrel is a replacement. Red ramp also points to custom work/modifications.

That is an excellent catch and good feedback!

The serial number does not have the R prefix, so the frame is from before 1969, but the frame is ALSO stamped 60-1.

Neglecting the 3" barrel for the moment:

- Model 60-1 stamped behind the crane
- Round butt frame
- s/n 516xxx (no "R" prefix)

Thanks, and I will post some better pics this weekend.

two-bit cowboy · #40 02-26-2021, 08:08 PM

Quite the intriguing puzzle, Pete.

I think dnater caught something very important. That frame appears to have been made for a 2" lightweight barrel.

There was a second run of Model 60-1s with round butts and 2" barrels, but that wasn't till 1985 (the year after the Jovino square butts) so still not pinned. Those 660 Chiefs Special Target Models for Ashland Shooters Supply had the typical 2" target model shark fin front sight and an adjustable rear sight.

Please keep digging. As that '80s tv ad suggested, "Inquiring minds want to know."

PeteC · #41 02-26-2021, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two-bit cowboy

Quite the intriguing puzzle, Pete....

I swear I am not out there looking for mysteries to solve, or one-of firearms. They follow me home, sometimes,

two-bit cowboy · #42 02-27-2021, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

I swear I am not out there looking for mysteries to solve, or one-of firearms. They follow me home, sometimes,

Last week as I was stalking the auction sites I saw a stainless steel Chiefs Special that had originally been marked "60-1," and the "1" was over-stamped with a "0". Wish I had saved the link. I can't find it now. It was a 2" round butt.

There's always a surprise in the S&W cereal box. Feel lucky you find 'em.

PeteC · #43 02-27-2021, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two-bit cowboy

...There's always a surprise in the S&W cereal box. Feel lucky you find 'em.

I am slowly learning that. This thread was originally supposed to be an invitation for other people to post some of their early M-60 versions, not so much a "what have I got here" thread

(I changed the grips since I started this thread, to accommodate my fat fingers)

More detailed pics for the real experts:

two-bit cowboy · #44 02-27-2021, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

This thread was... not so much a "what have I got here"

I like the challenge of trying to figure out "what is it?" I believe many here do.