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Old 10-23-2020, 11:27 AM
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Default 44 & 357 AMMO QUESTION and DISCUSSION

I shoot .44 SPL in my Model 29s on the ranch in Texas. Usually only carrying 44 MAG rounds while in Montana bear country.

QUESTION 1. With the shortage of ammo it is hard to find FMJ in 44 SPL at reasonable prices. A lot of what is available is lead and wadcutters. I have always believed straight Lead bullets fouled the barrel and made cleaning much more difficult.

What rounds are the expert target shooters using now?

Question 2. I recently read in the FORUM that some were advising a 357 shooter not to 125 grain rounds and stick with 150+ grain . Are the pressures that much higher in the 125 that they will cause problems for a frequent shooter??
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:36 AM
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First off, welcome to the forum!

As far as the 44 Special goes I've only handloaded for it. I thought they were expensive at $25/box of 50 way back when! Now, if you can find them, they're danged expensive. Some leading might occur, depends on the load and the timing of the revolver. Things get more complicated than that, bullet diameter vs. cylinder diameter and such. Others with more knowledgeable experience will chime in.

Can't answer your question either way on the 125 grain 357 mag loads. Most usually state that as long as you don't constantly shoot hot 125 grain loads you should be fine. Everyone has their preference, and their opinion!
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:43 AM
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The K frame .357s used to have a flat area under the forcing cone that might weaken and crack when using the small magnum bullets.

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Old 10-23-2020, 11:58 AM
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Does the lower grain like 180 in 44 Mag cause the same probs as 125 in 357?

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Old 10-23-2020, 02:54 PM
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No, but the Remington 180 SJHP is thoroughly unpleasant to shoot and usually requires significant sight adjustment if you are sighted for 240 grain loads.

Last edited by biku324; 10-23-2020 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 10-23-2020, 03:36 PM
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I only shoot 240 grain bullets in my revolvers chambered in 44 Magnum or 44 Special. In my Model 19s and 28 I only shoot 158 grain bullets. The lighter weight bullets with a higher velocity are harder on the guns and on me.

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Old 10-23-2020, 04:21 PM
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The .357 issue is mostly a factor with a K frame; if yours is an N frame (or an L) you should be ok with any reasonable load. I admit that in most revolver calibers I prefer the heavy for caliber SWC for most uses. At a modest velocity, in .38/.357; 41; or 44 it will do most things well, especially defensive use against human predators. I am not in bear country often and do have some stout stuff I could carry if needed.
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Old 10-23-2020, 04:30 PM
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The old adage used to be that if you kept the lead bullet loads under 1,000 fps, you wouldn't get leading. I never found that to be true. Unless you are using truly hard, hard-cast bullets, you're going to get leading at pretty much any reasonable velocity. That's because swaged bullets are soft. So you just deal with it and clean the stuff out.

On your question about 125s vs 158s, as others have said, it's really only an issue with "K" frames and even that isn't so much of an issue anymore unless you're loading ammo that is really pushing the SAAMI pressure.
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Borderboss View Post
Unless you are using truly hard, hard-cast bullets, you're going to get leading at pretty much any reasonable velocity. That's because swaged bullets are soft.
That is sort of mixing apples and kumquats. "Hard cast" and "swaged" bullets are not the same thing. Or, perhaps, you didn't mean they are, but that's how I read your post.
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:30 PM
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My pet bullet in the 357 was cast from wheel weights a 146 gr hollow point, mold is long gone but I believe it was a Lyman 358 156 and i pushed it with a healthy charge of 2400 powder. Early pre 27 but this was back in the late 1960s and early 1970s. In my 38 Specials I load light loads with the Hornady 148 gr Hollow base WC for target and plinking but for self defense I load the 148 HBWC backwards ( old school )
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Old 10-23-2020, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by OLMDDat71 View Post
..... In my 38 Specials I load light loads with the Hornady 148 gr Hollow base WC for target and plinking but for self defense I load the 148 HBWC backwards ( old school )
HBWC backwards, the way I used to do it!
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:14 PM
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Part of the issue with light bullets in .357 is when loaded over a full charge of slow burning powder, like H110/W296. There is significant muzzle flash, and flame from the cylinder/forcing cone gap. This can eventually etch/cut into the top strap.

Re .44 mag: I shoot home cast 240g RNFP at about 1,000/1,100 FPS. I clean after every session. What little leading I get cleans out pretty easily.

Last edited by Stroker468; 10-23-2020 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 10-28-2020, 03:15 PM
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IF 125gr .357 and 180gr .44 mag are so hard on gun and shooter, why did the manufacturers start making them in the first place ?
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Old 10-28-2020, 04:16 PM
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You said something to the effect that you have always thought lead bullets foul a barrel and is difficult to clean , etc .
There is quite a bit of science and art to shooting hard cast bullets w/o leading the barrel . The cylinder throats have to be the proper size ( which they almost never are -- too small ) . There will be tight spots inside the barrel , sometimes where they roll stamped the markings on the side and where the barrel threads onto the frame caused by over tightening the barrel to index the front sight to the rear sight . Then there's the possibility of micro machine marks on the rifling . If none of those conditions exist , proper alloy hardness is important . Then there's the problem of correct bullet lube . Most commercial casters use a very hard lube , because it ships better and doesn't fall off . The problem is , it's " crayon like " and that's all it's be good for , " crayons " . Many times people will switch to cast , end up with a leaded barrel and say , " those bullets are no good , they fouled my barrel " . All most always the lead bullet is not the culprit , it's just the end result of some of the above mentioned problems . Now , to clean a leaded barrel is quite easy . I buy " PURE copper scouring pads called Chore Boy " either at Ace Hdwe stores or sometimes walmart . Make sure it says " PURE Copper " as some are steel just copper coated . Cut a piece about the size of your thumb , wrap it around a wore out bore brush and " bump " it into the barrel . A few strokes back and forth should remove all leading in the barre . If you are having trouble getting fmj bullets in 357 / 44 . Might I suggest you try powder coated / Hi Tech coated bullets . They might work fine for you and are much easier to buy right now . Hope all of this helps , Regards Paul
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Old 10-29-2020, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore33 View Post
IF 125gr .357 and 180gr .44 mag are so hard on gun and shooter, why did the manufacturers start making them in the first place ?
The 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum loads stemmed from the 1960's. The standard 357 Magnum load was always 158 grains, either LSWC, JHP, or JSP. It worked well on game animals up to the size of deer, but not so well for law enforcement and self-defense. In the 1960's, Lee Juras, and his company named Super Vel, started making lightweight, jacketed hollow point ammo designed to be more effective stoppers for law enforcement. His load for the 38 Special and 357 Magnum used 110 grain bullets. These bullets were driven at phenomenal velocities and expanded beautifully.

Then, the big ammo companies caught onto the success Super Vel was enjoying and developed 125 grain JHP loads. The one big issue with the 110 grain loads was rapid expansion and the loss of penetration. Federal, Remington, and Winchester's 125 grain loads, driven at maximum velocity, provided reliable expansion and adequate penetration in most instances of use. Super Vel started losing business to the big companies, fell behind on their federal taxes, and ultimately died when the IRS seized their assets.

As to why the 180 grain 44 Magnum load, I'm guessing it was for the same reason, a more reliable stopper for law enforcement and self-defense.
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Old 10-29-2020, 03:19 PM
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Default STOPPING POWER

Funny, I thought it was E=MC Squared. Therefore the bigger bullet stopping in the body the more the killing power transferred.

I do not see faster as a plus in LE/self defense.
that is why 230gr .45ACP @ 850 fps is best man killing round in the world. It stops in the body and transfers all the energy to the victim
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Old 10-29-2020, 10:37 PM
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I know a machinist who would like to meet you and learn all you know about gun metal and barrels.
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Old 10-29-2020, 11:46 PM
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Claymore33 , just send me a PM and we can talk more . Regards Paul
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Old 10-30-2020, 10:15 AM
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