I have a (foreign) police surplus Model 10-6, I initially got it as a collectable but have since started carrying it for pocket carry (yes I have deep pockets, which is why my “normal” pocket carry option was not working) because it just fits very well and does not move around like my old one did (Taurus PT-111 Millennium), with or without a pocket holster (the thing liked to somehow completely flip upside down or sideways). It’s not an ideal choice, I would prefer something with more capacity, but I can’t deny that it just carries damn near perfect, or at least more power. In a service length barrel .38 special is not the slouch that people make it out to be but it is also not as effective as .357 magnum.

My understanding is that a production run of model 10-6s was indeed made chambered in .357 magnum and that they did function safely, which is what caused Smith and Wesson to release the model 13, which is essentially just a model 10 chambered in .357 magnum.

However I also understand that the frame of the model 13 was reinforced. My question though is can I fit a model 13 cylinder in a model 10 and is it safe to shoot full power .357 magnum +p?

I know the recoil would be unpleasant but my thinking is that aside from checking zero and reliability testing of the ammo the only time .357 magnum would be carried is for self defense and I’m not as concerned about a nasty recoil in a self defense scenario.

If .357 magnum +p were not possible what about standard pressure? If standard pressure is possible but not +p, would .357 magnum have any advantage of .38 special +p?

The ammunition used would be Underwood xtreme defender, or a hand loaded clone.

If you are wondering how that carries in my pocket, the end of the grips come to just above the rim of the pocket and are covered by my shirt, exactly were I want them to be and it does not slide back and forth or tilt, even without a pocket holster. It also does not print that I can tell and is comfortable and light enough that I don’t even notice it, to the point that sometimes I nearly forget it’s there before I go in to work and have to take it out. (I sadly work for an antigun company that uses manned metal detectors) Compared to my Taurus PT-111 Millennium that carries like an uncomfortable ever shifting brick, with or without a pocket holster and is slow as hell to draw, requiring me to toot around in my pocket first to find it. I have other options for belt carry, my pocket carry is a backup when I belt carry and a primary when I am not able to belt carry.

Welcome! The cylinder and other parts (barrel, yoke) of the model 13 are different from the model 10, so it is not as easy as a simple parts swap. Unless there are financial or other restrictions (such as living somewhere where finding used guns is expensive or impossible) finding a model 13 would be easier if you are committed to carrying a 4" .357.

Also, there is no official standard for + P .357. "Standard" pressure loads in this run 45,000 psi compared to .38 Special/+ P at 17 and 21,000 psi.

Good luck in your decisions.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Thankyou.

Finding any gun seems to be an issue lately... Right along with ammunition and components, the reason I mentioned handloads is because the underwood ammunition I want has not been available for months and I don’t anticipate seeing any more for at least a year at this rate, hell I can’t even find primers so I am literally resorting to breaking down target rounds to get primed cases, I was fortunately able to find some bullets direct from Lehigh Defense, and I can actually get powder locally so I just need to figure out the recipe. All the local shops have are fudd guns, a few of those new AR styled shotguns, .22s, and a few random semi auto pistols, plus a few random taurus and rock island armory snub nosed revolvers and a freakish number of single action army clones. A model 13 would have to be ordered and I have not found one online and similar smith and Wesson revolvers go for $700-$800, more than I am willing to spend to switch calibers, should I buy one it would not be a model 13 but one of the 8 shots, but I am still undecided on that. I saw that replacement cylinders could be found for around $100 though, that I am willing to spend.

What about getting a spare model 10 cylinder and having a gunsmith bore it out to .357 magnum? (I say a spare because I do not want to wreck the original)

The question though is can the model 10 handle the pressure of a hot .357 magnum?

I have a couple of 357 made out of model 10s. In fact just recently made a 10-7 into a fake model 13 pinto. The 357 cylinders are a bit longer than 38 special cylinders and that means the model 10 barrel shanks are a bit longer. It is really easier to go with a 357 barrel and a 357 cylinder. I have not found any difference in the yokes at all, except for the short period when they put the gas ring on the yoke. If you change barrels you may have to make adjustments to the barrel shoulder to get the sights to time right and the cylinder needs to be fit to the frame barrel and yoke. There is also some variations on the front of the frame where it meets the barrel Some dash numbers are real rounded on top and some have a more broadened area. This effects the match up.
Fake model 13, If you look close you can se a tiny bit of mismatch where outside edges of the model 13 wide rib doesn't match up with the 10-7 frame,


Exact same thing happens with a heavy model 10 barrel on a round top model 10-7 frame


But you have to really look to see it. But, model10 frames function fine as 357. I firmly believe they are mechanically the same and I have never had a problem with it. I have 4 model 10s made into 357 now.

Here is my Smolt a 10-6, adjustable sights added and with a 4" Python barrel



But, the reality is unless you have your own machine tools and are willing to either make or buy specialty tools it isn't worth it.
I can spend a day in my shop tinkering away to get everything to fit for the cost of electricity and a little wear and tear on my tools. If you pay a gun Smith a bare bones $35 an hour (that would be cheap shop rates) and everything fit with no real adjustments needed, it would still take him probably 3 hours minimum to switch the barrel and cylinder and check everything. The chances everything will just go together are slim though. Cylinder to yoke tube fit usually takes a bit of adjustment, the barrel might not torque up just right. The ejector rod might be a tiny bit long. etc etc. Plus even if you get lucky and find a barrel and cylinder cheap, that still probably going to be around $150 so it don't take much to end up making a $500 gun into a $800++ gun worth $500

Sell your gun and buy a 357. Heck if you want to make a K frame 38 special into a 357 buy a J&G gunsmith special model 10-7 for $#179 plus shipping and what every your FFL guy charges to transfer and learn how to stick a 357 barrel and cylinder in it. Don't spend money making your $500 into a $500 gun.

I do it because I can, it is interesting and I learn something on every built. Plus, I already own a small lathe and milling machine and a bunch of shop tool. Joke is I probably have as much time into building little tools and jigs as I do modifying the guns.

Oh, and I have a really nice model 19-3 4" and a well used 6" plus a 5 shot J frame 357. Regular 35y are plenty for those guns. Even a factory K frame 357 isn't going like hot rod 357. That is why S&W made N frames and I don't fire hot rounds in those I own. If you need more than a "normal" 357 in them you need to step up into the 40+ caliber guns.

I, a man of a thousand blunders, am no expert, but, it would seem to me that there's more than meets the eye on such a cylinder swap. Are cylinders the same length? Are frames and cylinders of Model 10s and 13s differently heat-treated? If it were me, I would leave the gun unaltered, use "suitable" ammunition, and practice bullet placement. Humbly offered.

BTW, what's a fudd gun?

Bottom line up front: You can successfully have virtually any modification you want made to any firearm you choose...if you drop enough time and coin into the project; the juice often isn't worth the squeeze, and generally speaking you're better off buying the gun you want rather than trying to turn the gun you have into it.

Key takeaway here: Stick with your 10-6, select a heavy .38+P load and call it good.

Yes, the 13-1 grew out of a small batch of 10-6s S&W modified for .357 Magnum for a NY law enforcement agency. I, too, have read that the 13's metallurgy is different from the 10; I have also read it isn't, and don't consider the question settled. From a production standpoint it doesn't make much sense to have two fundamentally identical frames partitioned out into one kind of heat treat versus another.

For the first couple generations of 13, the cylinder was counterbored while your 10-6 isn't; the cylinders are therefor different in length, and trying to get a counterbored 13 cylinder into your 10-6 would involve much more than a simple swap. Later 13 cylinders did away with the counterbore, but other changes were made, such as the placement of the gas ring, so other changes still would have to be made to your 10-6 to effect a fit.

It's almost too many parts and checks to be named here, but compounding parts interactions would have to be rectified by someone trained to do so and it's walking down a lot of little gremlins to -- in my opinion -- no particular good use when there are so many other turnkey options.

Never heard of .357 Magnum +P, and murphydog correctly notes the absence of an official standard for such, with the implied cautions in pursuing such a load or buying from a manufacturer claiming one.

For that matter, I'm not seeing anything from Underwood in a .357 Magnum +P, Xtreme Defender line or otherwise. Where are you getting this?

And to the question of full house magnums (or greater?) in older magnum K-frames -- it's doable, but you really don't want to do it much in order to preserve them. Modern Ks and Ls are highly recommended if you intend a steady diet of magnums (of any stripe) for training and carry.

To your question about advantages of .357 Magnum over .38 Special +P, the answers is: maybe sometimes. Unless we're talking specifics of load, specific firearm, specific shooter and specific purpose, there are too may variables to offer an easy all-purpose answer.

My advice is, if you haven't already, confirm your 10-6 is in proper working order, then select a proven .38 Special +P load for it and run it at the range to confirm reliability, shootability and point of aim to point of impact.

If your case of magnumitis doesn't pass, get a magnum gun. For your stated purposes you don't really need it, but if you must scratch the itch (and we all have at one time or another), don't endeavor to convert the 10-6, sell it or put it aside, get a proper built magnum revolver and go from there.

I see you're new to the forum -- welcome and enjoy it here, great place and a lot to learn. Be safe, have fun and good luck.

__________________
Pickpocket

"Fudd" is a pejorative term applied generally to older shooters more into traditional, often hunting arms and endeavors versus the generally younger, more modern, self-defense and "tactical" crowd.

For "fudd guns" think old tech: wood, blued steel, double-barrel shotguns, bolt action rifles and revolvers.

Comes from the cartoon character Elmer Fudd.

__________________
Pickpocket

Term came around when hunters and non gun enthusiast, mainly using traditional style firearms like bolt action riles, double barrel shotguns' for hunting and revolvers for self defense were labeled "Fudds". They gave no thought of the 2nd amendment restriction pushes like the AWB of 94 because it didn't affect them and you didn't need AR15s and the like. They looked and sounded like Elmer Fudd carrying his old DB shotgun. So any weapon of basic technology and function used by that perceived group is labeled "Fudd Gun"

Ahh beat, and by a person who used the word "pejorative". Curses!

I guess I am a Fudd gunner, Mostly revolvers, bolt guns, doubles and pumps.

Old school, "fire power if fine, but accuracy is final".

Does using the word "pejorative" say college education? LOL

I'm well rounded as I have and shoot both.

Looking back however, 1994 was a big year in the split between the "Fudd" and "EBR" (evil black rifle) crowds. Not only didn't the Fudds show any real concern for what happened to assault rifles, the majority Fudd membered NRA did a deal to support the 1994 AWB in exchange for protections of hunting rights for the Fudds.

To be fair, AR-15 sales prior to the 1994 AWB were on the order 10,000 rifle per year and EBR owners were pretty small minority in the big picture. Ironically it was the 1994 AWB that made AR-15s and similar military style semi-auto rifles extremely popular.

Now, post ban, there are around 16 million of them in the US, and sales will top 1.5 million per year in the average election year where fears of a new ban may arise.

There's a great deal of irony in that and it has changed NRA politics. When I was stationed in the DC area I'd go to the NRA range in Fairfax about once every week or two. I'd do it on a weekday, going to Fairfax from Arlington opposite the rush hour traffic, shoot for an hour, do breakfast in their cafeteria, go through the museum and head home after the inbound DC traffic had died down.

Almost all the rifle shooters I saw at the NRA range were shooting EBRs. This was around 2007-2010, - a huge shift since the passage of 1994 AWB and it's sundown in 2004.

In turn the NRA changed its position to reflect the change in numbers. That's not all good either as the NRA has taken a pretty extreme stance rejecting some very common sense gun ownership ideas like providing background checks for private sales, or ensuring guns not on your person are properly secured to make them harder to access by children and prohibited individuals. After all Sandy Hook would have never happened if a gun owner with a mentally ill son had kept her firearms properly secured in her home. Common sense would go a long way toward promoting gun owners as responsible people - and it would benefit both the Fudds and the EBR crowd.

I'd also prefer to see the gun lobby in general focusing on facts, such as military style semi auto rifles being responsible for less than 0.1% of all homicides. Between 2007 and 2017 there were 173 people killed in "mass shootings" involving military style semi autos. That's an average of 17.3 per year, compared to an average of around 1700 people per year killed with knives. It's also 20% to 30% smaller than the number of people killed with fists or blunt objects.

Back in the late 1960's to mid-1970's there were gunsmiths offering rechambering services to convert .38 Special revolvers to .357 magnum, a relatively simple modification using a chambering reamer. I remember seeing several Model 10 and some Colt Official Police revolvers with this modification. The numbers I saw were relatively few but enough to know that this was at least considered as an option by some people.

I don't recall hearing of any specific problems, but with such a small sampling to consider that must be taken as anecdotal at best, not definitive proof of the concept as a safe or wise practice.

Personally, if I were a gunsmith offering services to the general public I would never consider performing such work. Too many warning bells, warning flags, and liability lawyers looking for paydays. I doubt that even a written, signed, witnessed, notarized disclaimer and waiver of liability would provide enough protection at the courthouse.

There’s nothing wrong in liking the old stuff, I used the term as a descriptor.

As other’s have pointed out, the term fudd has come to refer to the “gun owners” who would sell us all out and support the antigunners as long as they can keep their deer rifle, revolver, and double barrel shotgun. Of course what they don’t realize is that is only until their deer rifle gets labeled a “high powered sniper rifle,” their revolver gets called a “dirty hairy death machine,” and their shotgun a “street sweeper.” Only then there will be no one else to defend them.

Fudd gun just refers to the types of guns the fudds think are “acceptable” and “all you need.” To me it means boring cookie cutter bolt action “deer rifles” (I also use the term remchesters to describe those because they all seem the same to me), double barrel shotguns (especially over and unders), and ridiculously long barreled pump action shot guns with only like 3 round tubes.

Sell what you have and buy what you want.

Should be the 11th Commandment.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

One is not so much marked by his use of the term "pejorative" as by his pronunciation of it.

__________________
Formerly Model520Fan

Oo, I think you may cost me money at j&g lol I lack tools or know how though, so I will have to check what the gunsmith would charge to see if one of those will be worth building, hell I might even get 2, one to convert and one to build in to a restored 10-7.

2? I am just putting the finishing touches on#6

See the gunsmith section on my 327 Federal project

I have finished the fake 13, the heavy barrel 38 special the Smolt, a fixed sight 327 mag and one into a model model 15 clone.

On second thought, the gunsmithing isn’t too bad, he quoted about 2 hours at $60 an hour to install a barrel however they will not do the rechambering, or reblueing, they recommended another place for the reblueing and they quoted $350! Just for the reblue.

I know I've posted it here before but here is my 10-8 round butt that I converted into a 3" 357 using a parts kit from a 13-3



Like said before I would pair a barrel with a cylinder rather than trying to cut down a 38 special barrel face to fit a 357 cylinder which is longer.



I have a little over $500 in this gun

I'm not trying to be a jerk but saying sell what you have and buy what you want doesn't work anymore. Especially when 3" barrel guns are doubling the price of the same models in other barrel lengths. (A NIB 13-4 three inch just sold for over $1200)

If you have a mechanical ability and are willing to invest in tools you can use multiple times you can definitely switch barrels and build more desirable guns for cheaper than they cost to buy.

__________________
-Matt

Exactly. Banning "assault weapons" is just the target of the moment, but the signs where it would go after that are already evident.

One of the big talking points for the anti-assault weapon crowd is how "devastating" that .223 round is when it hits someone. Yes, it'll do a lot more damage that a 9mm FMJ, and even more than a well designed 9mm hollow point. But...it is far less destructive than just about every other centerfire rifle round larger than .224" when a soft point bullet is used.

It'll be a two pronged attack. FMJs will be banned after the ATF caves to pressure to define them as "armor piercing". (Those of us old enough to remember Reagan and his "cop killer bullet" rant resulted in legislation that literally did just that, before it was rolled back to focus on teflon coated pistol bullets, etc.)

Soft points will then be targeted because because they expand and create "devastating" wounds.

Accuracy and range will also come into question just as soon as the cheese slides of the cracker of some long range shooter (the University of Texas tower shooting, redux) and he shoots people with a "sniper rifle".

It'll follow then that because most game animals are killed at 150 yards or less, and no more than about 3 MOA accuracy is required anything longer ranged or more accurate than that will be termed a "sniper rifle" and they'll want to ban them.

That *might* leave lever guns like the venerable Winchester 94 and Marlin 336 in 30-30. But eventually someone will comment on the rate of fire with a lever gun after someone uses one in a crime.

That'll leave us all with 12 ga and 20 ga slug guns - as long as they are single shot break open types as eventually even Elmer Fudd's double barrel will be seen as being more than he needs for hunting wabbits.

Hey 9245, welcome to the S&W Forum. Lots of very knowledgeable people who will put you through the ringer when you ask about a project like this, but it's for your own good. Kind of like tough love, only over the internet.
I'm also a big fan of parts swaps, but unlike Steelslaver, I don't do my own machining. I've been very lucky to have found a like-minded gunsmith who won't charge an arm and a leg to put my ideas into action. Sounds like you may have found one. Good.
I may have missed it, but does your "return" frame have a barrel, and is it a heavy-barrel frame? By that I mean no taper at the front end of the frame, like you'd see on a 2" or tapered barrel Model 10.
Next, see if you can find a .357 cylinder. There's a place called everygunpart.com that currently has 40% off on certain S&W "parts kits," which is what they call a demilled (cut-up) firearm. These include a cylinder and yoke, both necessary for your swap. They also include barrels, so if you don't have one, this might be the ticket. (Since these kits aren't considered a "firearm" by ATF, you can receive them directly, so no FFL transfer fees.)
Lastly, if you do decide to cut your barrel, keep in mind that will cause the roll marks to be off-kilter. If you're OCD like me, that's not acceptable! So plan on barrel refinishing (or having the lettering removed altogether) with a cut barrel.
Over the years, I've probably had a dozen or more guns re-configured one way or another. Not too long ago, I had a Model 10 put together exactly like what you want, although it was entirely by accident, as documented in another thread that I offer here for your amusement: "New" .357 Model 10
Best of luck with your project. A good reconfiguring job won't increase the resale value of your gun, but the personal satisfaction of such a gun can be priceless if you love how it turns out. Be sure to show us some photos when it's done!

Right now on Ebay there is a couple nickel model 13 barrel, buy it now $65 or $89, 3 stainless fix sight K frame 357 barrels (model 65) buy it now $80 or $69

A bunch of model 19 cylinders, some nickel for $89 and up.

Your pinto fix sight 357 awaits you


J&G $180 + $31 shipping and FFL
Barrel $65 + $5shipping
Cylinder $90+$5 shipping
Gun smith give him 3 hours at $60 for $180

so 211+70=281+95=376+180=556 and say 25 for the FFL transfer $581
For a couple hundred more you can find a nice model factory model 13

I do it because I can, I get no bill from a gunsmith, I want what I want, I enjoy it. I also check Ebay for S&W parts all the time and buy cheap. I have a draw full of barrels, cylinder and other parts.

Alternate idea, since it seems a caliber conversion is not feasible, since we know the frame can handle .357 magnum loads, would I be able to safely load .38 special rounds using .357 magnum data? 6.4 grains vs 23 is a heck of a difference.

100 grain solid copper bullet being pushed by 23 grains of Hodgdon H110 or Winchester 296 with a magnum primer? I think that would get me well over 2,000 fps... load data was for a 110 grain .357 magnum.

Alternatively the best .38 special +p load I have been able to find is 6.4 grains of universal and a standard small pistol primer pushing the same bullet to 1,060 fps. Cartridge overall length of 1.53 inches.

When you decrease case capacity all other things being the same you increase pressure. The same load that might fit in a 38 special case will have higher pressure than a 357 case.

Also I know for a fact when you start seating 20+ grains of H110 into a 357 case you will have a compressed load. You will not fit that into a 38 special case. The high charge H110 loads are flame throwers, they do better in longer barrels where the powder has a chance to burn.

I have loaded 20+ grains of H110 behind a 110gr XTP and even in a 20” rifle barrel you still get muzzle flash.

__________________
-Matt

My goal is 1,300 fps or better, any suggestions?

I’m attempting to replicate this:

38 Special +P 100 Grain Xtreme Defender – Underwood Ammo

But 1,500+ fps would be even better, that would roughly match my 9mm loads.

My concern with velocity is due to more bad guys wearing armor, so something that can punch 3a makes me feel better, still admittedly unlikely, but it could happen, and I only have 6 rounds. I know a 65 grain 9mm +p extreme defender can do it from a Glock 26, as can a 90 grain +p out of a longer barrel.

You're going to beat an old 10-6 to hell to no particular purpose except to figure out what it (and possibly your hand) can't take. Even a magnum-rated K-frame from that era isn't going to play nicely very long regularly feeding it top-end (or beyond) magnum numbers -- they weren't built for it.

If that's truly your interest, you're better off getting hands on a current build S&W K or L frame; a Ruger GP would be even better.

__________________
Pickpocket

Hey I make model 10s into 357s and I don't worry about the frame one bit. But, I don't believe either of my 19-3 would stand up long to 1400-1500fps loads. You want to do that you best go to an N frame if you want it to last and your still going to start eroding the barrels throat.

For what? a 158gr slug at 1200fps gives you 1200x1200=1,440,000x158=227,520,000/450-240=505ft#
1500x1500=2,250,000x158=355,500,000/450,240=790ft#
Hooray you got 50% ft#.
But, how much bigger and deeper is the hole going to be. 99.99% of the time its a hole in paper anyway.
How much deader is whatever going to be if YOU put tthe bullet where it needs to be??? ZERO thats how much

Range use would be standard low pressure 38 special. I’m talking about defensive ammo, other than what I fire for load development and maybe a dozen or so more after that to verify function and zero those loads would never be fired outside of self defense, altogether we are probably talking less than 50 rounds in the entire life of the revolver. I can’t imagine that would cause too much damage would it? All other use would be standard low pressure loads, honestly probably mostly cast lead popgun loads to save on cost.

Also, I’m talking about 100 grain, not 158.

Actually I wouldn’t mind an N frame, I have been looking at the model 327 and the R8, provided I can get them with a 4.2 inch barrel. The cost is off putting though, this is a stop gap measure until I can justify the funds, I have a few other projects and priorities that come first, so this is just a bandaid until that happens.

A 100gr to 110 gr bullet is do able at that velocity. But the problem then becomes throat erosion. But, I never mess with 100gr bullets in a 357. I am a firm believer that heavy bullet do better in far more conditions than light ones. Your 100gr lightly constructed bullet hits a heavy coat, or anything else then what? Even a lot 9mm guys are going to heavier 125gr to 147gr bullets.

My favorite round it a 255 gr cast bullet from a 45 colt at about 1000fps.

I like it better than my 44 magnums for anything I am ever going to shoot on this continent. My carry gun is an scandium alloy 325 45 acp with a titanium cylinder. I firmly believe a 200gr bullet at 800fps is as good as it gets for a self defense handgun. If I do my part, it will do its part. That is far more important than all the velocity in the world.

You would be far better off spending money shooting what you carry. I firmly believe that if the time comes you don't need variables. You need what you really know. Your life is on the line and you want to add more muzzle flash, different recoil and point of impact? I go with no on that myself.

But, then I stopped worshiping maximum velocity long ago.

BTW 1500x1500=2,250,000x100=225,000,000/450,420=500ft#

The projectile is solid copper, I’m talking about the extreme defender by Lehigh Defense, it uses fluid transfer instead of acting like a hollow point, as flesh moves through the flutes on the bullet it creates a fluid shockwave and a better wounding than a hollow point, the thing is it’s a velocity dependent design, the more velocity, the better it performs, and as an added benefit it makes it more likely to defeat barriers and armor.

I agree with you on practicing with what you carry, however in this case because of the issues you mentioned it is not practical, also the projectiles alone are about 70 cents each, so I’ll just be noting where the zero moves to and correcting for it, if I had adjustable sights I would zero to my defense ammo and use Kentucky windage for the practice ammo, but with fixed sights I have to use Kentucky windage for both. However it should be pointed out that the average self defense shooting occurs at about 3 feet and most people zero defensive handgun sights at just 21 feet so I don’t the shift in the point of impact will be that severe.

That's mostly marketing boilerplate. Is there a solid, evidence-based reason you appear to be gearing all your choices around a particular and unproven bullet?

__________________
Pickpocket

" ... more likely to defeat barriers and armor."

If it defeats soft body armor, it would be illegal under Federal law.

For the money you are discussing putting into this conversion. you could afford to practice more and concentrate on bullet placement. The FBI load, using a 158 grain lead hollow point, is a proven round.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

To me your trying to to fix something that isn't broken with high tech. People have been being killed with 38 caliber bullets for well over hundred years and lots of them with round nosed lead. Your super bullet will most likely be something else once the high tech tip is full of denim, nylon, part of a zipper or something else. Sounds like a fishing lure advertisement. It probably works great in a lab. Some guys fall down dead with a 22lr, some guys keep going after being hit with a 44 mag. Your bullet isn't going to change that. Hey I have seen deer keep going after being hit in the chest with a 100gr bullet going 3000fps from 6mm Remington and 243 Winchesters. Your 100 gr bullet at 1/2 the velocity and 1/2 the twist rate, isn't going to have more "hydraulic shock" and do better because it has a fancy tip. Just won't.

Its like spending a whole bunch of time and money getting a super light trigger pull. While I do like smooth and even light, after playing around I went down the become a better trigger puller path.

Ballistic gel tests.

There is no hollow point, it is a machined piece of copper.

Links to tests?

__________________
Pickpocket

Do what you want for the range and for posting pics and for fondling...
Carry a bone stock gun and bone stock factory loads, unless you want to be crucified in court.

Steelslaver, you are the wisest man I've ever "met." Talk about getting to the heart of the matter and saying what needs to be said.
I tip my internet-issue cap to you, sir.

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I am sure this bullet would be great to have if I ever have to defend myself against a naked block of boneless ballistic gel. But, most likely it will be a human between 140 to 300# wearing anything from a wife beater T shirt to a Carhart coat, a flannel shirt with a pack of cigs in the pocket and thermal underwear. Plus maybe a necklace with a hunk of metal on it. Who knows. I am going with a big heavy bullet. As a civilian, I doubt car doors, body armor or ballistic gel will be in the equation

I once saw about a 200# running mule deer buck, wearing a light fur coat, get hit in the side by a 105 gr ,243 going close to 3000fps. It hunched up like gut shot, the next shot dropped it. Upon dressing it proved the first bullet struck a rib and turned and went back into the guts, 2nd round stuck just inches away, hit no rib and blew its heart up. The guy shooting the 243 was an excellent shot to nail it the second time or that deer may have gone a long ways. I have yet to see a deer or elk go very far when I shot it in the chest with a bullet over 150gr. But, did have one I shot right behind the front shoulder just above the heart with a 180gr 300 Winchester Magnum go about 30' before it piled up. Thats a lot of bullet, velocity and expansion for something under 200#. There is no Magic bullet.

You see comments like this all the time and although I am sure that a prosecutor that is out to get you will throw up as much mud as he can to see what will stick, there isn't much case law to prove that having a modified gun or ammunition is going to make the difference. The prosecutor can just as easily try to make hay with your choice of stock gun and ammo. Why were you carrying a deadly cop killer 357 magnum with 110-158gr high velocity full metal jackets, hollow, soft points??? Why were you carrying it in a such and such holster that allowed you to draw it rapidly?? Why were you carrying so much ammo. Why did you have a deadly Glock that holds 19 rounds of a military round like the 9mm "German Luger" ???? Why did you feel it necessary to have a concealed weapons permit??? How come you own 3,5 12, 23 or 58 guns Mr shooter???? On and on.

This would also vary from location to location. Shooting to shooting. If YOU did the right thing I highly doubt your choice of either gun or ammo is going to convict you.

This is of course exactly correct -- to which I'll add: I defy anyone to produce any verdict in the U.S. legal system where a case of justified use of deadly for in self-defense resulted in a guilty verdict because of firearm modification or type of ammunition used...

...but, let's do that in a different thread so as not to overly divert this one.

__________________
Pickpocket

I'll divert it a bit, despite the request. In fact, two different diversions.

First: Fudd. While arguably a bit harsh in today's more language sensitive world (in which I fit poorly), it is a workable label. It was applied mostly by people with backgrounds more oriented to fighting - military vets of the GWOT, and cops, especially in higher action/rougher/more troubled settings. I remember the Jim Zumbo incident, in which he made heartfelt but unwise and ignorant comments about AR platforms. As far as I know, it cost him his career. The anger from the more fighting oriented folks was staggering; if you didn't see the responses you won't believe how angry folks were. Pat Rogers stuck his neck out, put his money where his mouth was, and invited Zumbo to a class. My recollection is that this was written up on the old 10-8forums, which sadly are no more. Pat understood that we all have to stick together, regardless of platform (and he had an epic collection of old school revolvers too, in addition to enough ARs to outfit at least a Marine Company, for valid business reasons). I'll admit my 9mm AR is probably not as practical as a .357 Marlin CSBL with a sling, light, and red dot.

Factory ammo and the like: Mas Ayoob's vigorously asserted position has to be considered in the context of his early professional development - the late 70s forward, and largely in the east/New England. The knowledge of defensive use of a firearm was primitive and often wrong, and armed citizens were rare because this was before the late 80s shift starting with Florida. Part of his job as he saw it was to predict risks that might come up in litigation, and he was not wrong - they might. Defense lawyers in both criminal and civil practice didn't know what they didn't know, so the quality of defense work available was ... poor. What we see now is different, not better. Plaintiff's counsel in particular tend to make up spectacular BS claims (I have seen this in a couple of cases with which I am very familiar); some prosecutors do the same (the disgraceful prosecutions of 1Lt. Lorance and of the Blackwater contractors come to mind, along with the crud going on now in Seattle, SF, and LA), and while there are good defense attorneys out there, the expense is staggering (figure 500K). While I would neither see nor be concerned about action consistent with his position from my office and most of my peers, that does not make him wrong. If you don't know the history, you won't understand the "why" of his position.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

Not a very well done or professional test, but here you go:

Underwood Xtreme Defender .38 Special+P Test - YouTube

Better test using actual ballistics gel:

Underwood 38 Special +P Xtreme Defender 100 Gr Clear Gel Test Lehigh Defense - YouTube

9mm, Not 38 special but it gives a good idea of how the projectile does against barriers:

9mm Defensive Load Barrier Tests! - YouTube

Without barriers:

NEW Underwood 9mm Xtreme Defender Test - YouTube

Against body armor:

Underwood Extreme Defender 65gr/90gr 9mm +p vs Armor - YouTube

That is what I am attempting to duplicate.

I used a .243 when I was a teenager hunting deer and antelope. But I soon dumped it for something with a but more weight and penetration - and a bit less velocity.

At short ranges high velocity can be counter productive on medium sized game where fragile bullets can either deflect or come apart and under penetrate a distressingly high percentage of the time. I much preferred the .308 to the .243. However, back when I hunted I regarded the .280 Rem with 162-168 gr bullets is just about perfect for 0-500 yard shots in the big flat states out west.

My wife and step daughters use 6mm Remingtons (I have 4 of them counting a re barrelled XP100)

It usually does a good job, but 2 years ago wife shot a 3 point muley buck (western count) at less than 100 yds. Hit in the chest but missed the heart or any major organs. It stumbled another 150 yds down hill and was till going when I put a 45 colt in it. Found the bullet which had mushroomed nicely, on far side side front shoulder. But, if it would have been the same size man, it sure could have shot back several times

That was a 105 gr soft point moving at around 300fps. Velocity is nice, but it isn't magic

This is exactly what I have in mind for the barrel-less 10-7 I picked up from J&G Sales. I've been able to find a 4" M13 barrel, but learned the cylinder and yoke I ordered is recessed model, so I'm still in the hunt for a K-frame non-recessed cylinder. Further, I need to find someone who can properly crown the barrel after cutting to 3", cut for the sight and mill flat sides to remove the stampings, then fit the barrel. I'll rust-blue the project after that.

__________________
Dave Frost

The recessed cylinder will work. Both my J&G Smolt and Pinto 13 are running recessed cylinders and the yoke don't matter as long as your cylinder has the gas ring on it. You can use the model 10's original yoke. I never changed the yoke on any of mine.

To use a recessed cylinder in a non recessed frame you must use a fine fire and carefully file back the frame lug about .06. I your real steady you can do it with a dreaded Dremel tool. But, I recommend a file that has been safes on the edge and some duct tape on the frame nearby. The other option is to turn a ledge on the rear of the cylinder to clearance the lug.


Any cylinder change may need some fitting besides the lug. Even with its own yoke there is no guarantee your yoke and cylinder will fit right in another K frame. Sometimes the window width is a bit different and the yoke tube needs shimmed or trimmed. You ejector rod might be a tiny bit long and hit the barrel lug on the barrel especially if the barrel is changed. Sometimes it all goes righ together perfect, sometimes everything is just a bit off and you have to fiddle around to get it all right.

I have a couple recessed 45 colt cylinders made by reaming recessed 44 mag cylinders and filing back the lug

You can buy new lugs from Midway, but I am sure they are a fitted part. You remove the side plate, support the frame around lug and then locate the pinon inside frame drive it out. Tap in new lug and stake it in place.


You also do not need to mill the sides flat to get rid of the markings. Just take a small smooth faced hammer (say 4oz) and tap the markings for a bit. They were put in by displacing metal NOT metal removal, so the idea is to cause some to move back. This tapping will not remove all the markings, just some. Then I take the barrel to my industrial belt grinder and using what is called a slack belt, where there is about 8" of unbacked up belt between 2 2" wheels, running a 400 grit belt I run the side of the barrel from muzzle to just past the marking moving it back and forth and rolling it a bit (not quite till the rib or ejector lug touches the belt) until the roll marks are gone. The belt set up this way curves to the surface of the barrel and blends to the contour. I finish with a few passes on a 800 grit belt. On the gun where I made a 6" K22 barrel into a 327 Federal, I only removed the markings from the side marked 22lr ctg. You can't tell it looks any different than the S&W marked side.

It is the same way I get rid off the import marks in front of the trigger guard.
Look in front of trigger on this J&G frame that is now a recessed 357 mag running a 4" Python barrel and adjustable sights.

Thanks, steelslaver. I was pretty sure the recessed cylinder could be made to working had thought about the the lug clearance. I would rather use a non-recessed cylinder, if I can find one. If not, it may go to that. The same is true of finding a blued Model 10 3"barrel. I kinda hate the idea of cutting down a 4", but we'll see what I can find for a while, first.

__________________
Dave Frost

In terms of ammo performance, the reality is that a standard velocity 158 grain SWC is a really good round and almost certain to shoot to the sights.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.