I came across this old photo from one of my old units, the 190th AHC. He appears to be carrying a RB M-15, among other things. It's hard to tell, but it looks like one. The ship, Nitty Gritty Gang Bang, is a 1964 UH-1D, with doors removed and you can clearly see the outer plate of the armored seat.

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	190th Huey (2).jpg (19.2 KB, 703 views)

Wonder if that is an M&P instead?

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

I saw both square-butt and round-butt Model 10 revolvers in aviation units, including 212th Combat Aviation Battalion, 11th Combat Aviation Group, 1st Aviation Brigade at Marble Mountain Air Field near Da Nang during my stay in 1969-1970.

Worth noting also are the all leather boots worn with the nomex flight suit. Standard issue combat boots in Vietnam had nylon uppers, known to melt and cause serious injury when exposed to high heat. Why wear a fire-resistant flight coverall with boots that would melt to your feet and legs? Fire was always a major concern for helicopter crews, flying around with hundreds of pounds of JP-4 jet fuel onboard and people shooting at you on a regular basis.

The only Model 15 revolvers I saw were in the holsters of US Air Force security police, standard issue at that time, all square butt.

In a holster with only the grip-frame exposed it is impossible to tell, but I strongly suspect this was a round-butt Model 10.

Could it be a Model 12?

Off topic but in pic. How were the .50cals set up on the aircraft?

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No baby we aint

Those are really some big-*** bullets for that revolver!
I'd hate to get hit by one of those .50 calibers. A lot of guys I worked with in the steel mill that were Nam vets said it was a real wake-up call to be 18/19 year old & seeing the damage they do to a human body. The stories they told...I turned 18 in '75 so I missed it, but had/have a lot of respect for those of you who were in the jungles & heck-holes over there.

I don't recall seeing .50 machineguns mounted on helicopters in Vietnam. The UH-1 gunship version utilized external weapon pods, typically set up with 2.75" rockets, and the aviation version of the M60 machineguns mounted at the doors. AH-1 Cobra gunships also used external pods for rockets and nose-mounted 7.62mm Mini-gun and 40mm automatic grenade launcher. Other configurations for the external pods are certainly a possibility that may or may not have seen use during that period.

My involvement with aviation units was as a member of a Pathfinder detachment, basically airborne infantrymen deployed in small teams on the ground before and during troop insertions and extractions. I spent a lot of time in and around helicopters, but the flight crews were the aircraft experts, not us grunts.

The .50 caliber Browning machinegun was not primarily intended as an anti-personnel weapon, although certainly more than capable of serving in that role. The primary purposes were to engage vehicles (including lightly armored types), anti-aircraft use, and against materiel targets. During the Vietnam war era .50 MGs were standard equipment for many army units (infantry, armor, etc), included in the basic "load out" of equipment, so they were regularly used in many ways.

Ammunition types included ball, armor piercing, and tracer-incendiary. Each projectile weighed about 1.5 oz (~700 grains). and left the muzzle at close to 3000FPS. Massive impact energy and penetration abilities (compared to the more standard infantry weapons).

The M2 Browning heavy barrel machinegun, with tripod mount and traversing-elevation mechanism, is a massive and heavy piece of equipment (long time ago now, but I'm thinking about 100 lbs. total). Not easily transported by dismounted troops, usually requiring either a fixed position or a fairly heavy vehicle for mounted use or transport.

The M2 Browning is known for reliability and accuracy at extended ranges, usually considered useful against man-sized targets at a mile or vehicles at two miles of effective range.

For strictly anti-personnel uses the general purpose M60 7.62mm machinegun was much better suited. Capable of use by a single soldier, typically carried by every infantry squad for combat operations, and plenty of power and accuracy for these uses within about 1200 yards. In addition to the squad machinegunner there was usually an assistant gunner to carry extra barrel(s) and ammunition, and in many cases every member of an infantry squad carried additional ammunition for the machinegun in addition to their own basic weapon load.

For use in fixed position the M60 was also equipped with a separate tripod and T&E mechanism. Pintle-type mounts (steel post with swiveling head for gun mounting) were used in vehicles, some with armor to shield the gunner.

There were a few units that mounted 50 cals on the UH-1, like the 120th (Deans) and three quarter (3/4) cav for specialized missions. The M-2 was pretty hard on the airframes and were not used much. The variety of weapon sub-systems used on the Huey is mind boggling.

Here are a few pictures I took, and one taken of me, while flying for the 187th AHC (fried egg on tail boom) and the 190th AHC (diamond on tail boom). The issue feed ramp was always falling off into the jungle and they became pretty scarce so the gunners would improvise. Note the wall of rain in the back drop of the formation, pic #3.

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Off subject , sorry . I read a book , Marine Sniper , about Carlos Hathcock . In the book it talks about him mounting a scope on an M2 and shooting out to some extreme distances . Of course , he was one of a kind .

That is far more likely. When I hear hoofbeats in GA, I think horses, not zebras.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I flew Hueys from 86-92. We had round butt Model 10's, and Ruger Service-sixs that had a round butt (yeah, I know that's a Speed-six, but they said, "Service-six" on the frame).

I'd venture to say it's a Model 10.

As I have mentioned here in the past, I was issued a Victory model at first and then a model 10. At one time Ft. Rucker had a huge stash of K-frame S&W's in storage, including Victory's. It is probably similar to Robins AFB's collection of M-15's, etc. (AF Logistics Command)

It always cracks me up when non-Army aviators seem to know so much about Army Aviation. I do know more about that than I do about Smith & Wesson firearms. I've got the DD-214's and DA-759's to back it up. It's any body's guess as to which model is being carried in the photograph. I knew guys that carried .357's in Colt and S&W (not issued) and 1911's (not authorized), etc. The gun in the picture could have been a M-19 for all any one knows. I'll tell you what. If the guy is still alive, I'll find him and ask him what he was carrying. That should clear it up.

SW model 10 round butt is my guess .

Never seen an RB 15.

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No life story has happy end.

You took me wrong. I'm not challenging your aviation quals. I just meant that I have never seen or heard of, or talked to anybody who has seen or heard of a round butt Mod 15. So, it is far more likely that the gun in the pic is some variant of the M&P. That's all I meant, brother.


I took several hundred Huey rides, almost always on a different bird. Brave and competent flyers. Brave and CRAZY door gunners! I always liked to sit leaning against one of the seats so at least that one side was protected. I always looked at what the guys were totin. You're right- there was quite a variety.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

It is well documented that the Army bought lots of round butt Model 10 revolvers and that many of them were issued to Army aviators. There is no documentation for round butt Model 15s being purchased, or even made.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Fair enough. Come to think about it, I've never seen or heard of a RB 15 either. I will look into it and find out what it is he is packing, just for the heck of it.

This is a round butt Model 10 with a U.S. marked back strap shipped in April, 1968.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

The first unit I flew with issued me what I remember to be a Victory model. The second unit I flew with, until DEROS, issued me a brand new, in the blue cardboard box, S&W model 10 round butt (I don't remember the dash number). I had military hardball ammo, issued in a white box. I liked the .38 SPL because at the time I was fairly competent with it, compared to a 1911A1. We were ordered to turn in our 1911A1's, but one pilot who had civilian experience with the auto, managed to keep his. Another pilot had a 4" Colt Python his father sent him. I only remember one of our pilots actually firing his handgun in anger. It turned out to be the one with the 1911A1!

The gun weighed right at 85 pounds with the barrel and the tripod another 42 pounds, give or take. I used to repair them for the 1st Cav. Div. in 1959. It was also my embedded weapon when we went on defense alert and my crew of three would chogee (chug) up a steep hill carrying the gun, a spare barrel, the tripod, 4 cans of ammo and a camouflage net and poles along with our packs and individual weapons. Much fun.

Stu

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So my estimated weight was off by about 27 lbs. Not bad for 50 years! When I went to Vietnam I weighed 148 lbs, but when I came home I was down to 129. Fifty years later the lying scales at the doc's office say I am closer to 190.

I was also 6 feet tall, back in the day. Now I am 5' 11". I attribute that to the long-term effects of gravity, which also seem to have dragged my old pectoral and shoulder muscles down around my belt.

Thanks for chipping in with your recollections, stu1ritter. Best regards!

Could be issue, sent by friends/family or passed on/picked up locally whatever the round butt is, know way of knowing unless pictured a aviator responds.

I have a round butt Model 15 in my collection, but it's a 15-7. To my recollection from my service time in USAF (1974-1978) I saw square butt Model 15's in the holsters of our Security Police and round butt Model 10's in the holsters of US Army chopper jockeys when I was stationed at the joint Fort Bragg/Pope AFB complex in Fayetteville, NC
Gary

A few exist, I auctioned one off at the S&WCA meet in Richardson a year or two back. Mine was a special order, one of three according to the letter I got from Roy Jinks.

Round Butt S&W Model 15:
1966 I had a gunsmith round butt a square butt Model 15. It was an excellant job as later a S&W Collector purchased it convinced that it came from the factory round butted.

Do you remember the dash number or when it shipped?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I had a 2" Model 15 round-butted and Armoloyed back in '79 to '81 or thereabouts. If anyone has it (and I don't recall the dash number or serial,) I'd love to know.

The model was hand stamped on the frame, no dash.