I see m27-2 and m28 some with turn lines on the cylinder some with no turn lines. Is the cylinder lock up cam too high with the turn lines? I won’t Stone the top of the edge of the cam lower and reblue it. I’m going to leave it alone. But does turn lines hurt the value? The finish on the revolver is 99.99% except for the turn lines.

Thoughts.?

All my used smiths have turn lines.

Another recent thread......

Cylinder wear line

It's actually called a "cylinder stop". Perhaps moly would help??

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Some old revolvers don't show up a heavy turn line because they have been shot only on single action. Double action tends to make the turn line worse, but thats the nature of the beast

I do not believe double action makes the turn line any worse than the same number of cycles single action but I had not thought about it before. What double action can do is peen the edge of the cylinder stop notch. There must be a better word than peen but none come to mind.

I advocate stoning cylinder stop edges but only to retard the change in the revolver's appearance. Turn lines are normal but nearly avoidable. Think in terms of removing atoms from the edge, not whole molecules. You only need to dull the edges. Even if that can be spotted it certainly is less noticeable than an obvious turn line. I can not imagine anyone rebluing the cylinder stop after stoning it.

Do turn lines reduce value? With revolvers that are other wise 99% they absolutely do. Without stoning the cylinder stop the revolver will look like it has fired the number of round that it has fired. If its stop was stoned before a turn line developed that 99% gun will look like it was barely fired at all. In 90% guns it makes no difference.

Here’s the turn lines. This m28 has a sweet trigger. I haven’t fondled it in decades. It appears to be barely fired. No holster wear, nothing. I’m not a collector but I’ve been very fussy about the condition of what I purchased.

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I seldom fire a revolver double-action, though most or all of my revolvers may have "turn lines". I shoot a lot, but haven't paid much attention to such things. Some gun owners apparently have difficulty accepting the lines, but I don't believe they hurt a thing.

The cylinder stop pops back up against the cylinder very early after the hand starts the cylinder rotation. Not much you can do about it other than perhaps, lightly polish the top of the cylinder stop and leading edge with fine crocus cloth. I generally don't bother.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Essentially, nobody cares about turn lines. Not in a used gun, anyway.

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Come and take it!!

If you don’t want a turn line, don’t index the cylinder when closing. Simply line up the cylinder line with forcing cone.
It has nothing to do with double or single action. Any revolver that
is cycled will have a slight drag at or near the notches.

I consider a revolver "turn line" like tire wear. Simply a result of usage.

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John

I don't buy that. The operating sequence of the cylinder stop is the same, whether it is single or double action, and it drags the cylinder in either case.

I believe the difference in some guns developing more of a line than others is a combination of a couple of factors. Total cycles of the firing mechanism, from "round count" or dry fire or just playing with the action; and the microscopic contour of the cylinder stop's top edge, whether is is 'sharp' on the edges or slightly rounded, are the greatest contributors to a turn line. The spring tension of the cylinder stop spring would also have an effect; even though the springs are all essentially the same, a minute variation in spring tension, practically unmeasurable but not enough to affect operation, could over time cause more wear.

Okay------------------

Of course turn lines hurt value---compare the 99% gun with a turn line to the 100% gun without one---compare the faint line to the Grand Canyon!!

Yes, the turn line can be minimized by "breaking" the edge of the cylinder stop (whichever edge that is), also by polishing the top surface of the cylinder stop.

Now, the reason I don't know "whichever edge that is" (other than it's clearly the leading edge) is because I'm not much of a shooter anymore----handgun shooter anyway-----AND because I long ago learned that turn lines can be prevented (on a new gun) or minimized on a used gun by altering the timing of the cylinder stop.

Here's how I came to learn that:

I bought my first, brand new in the box gun----a K-22------with the funky finish. This was in 1956. The funky finish was the name of the game, unless you had the patience for a special order-----6 months for "Bright Blue". I didn't. By the spring of 1960, I'd had all I could stand of the funky finish, and sent the gun back to the factory. The accompanying letter of instructions went like this: Please refinish in Bright Blue, and assign this gun to your very best craftsmen, and have them make it as perfect as can be. I don't care how long it takes nor how much it costs. I had the gun back in maybe 2-3 weeks (a thing of beauty), the cost was single digit dollars (as near as I can recall), and I had no clue as to what they might have done to make it as perfect as can be.

Time passed, and in the vernacular of this hive, I shot the snot out of it. I got older and wiser with that passage of time, and after a very loooooong time came to notice my very pretty gun was still very pretty--because it had no turn ring. (Actually it does----rather faint---and it's about 3/32" long at the lead into each cylinder stop notch-------which is to say my S&W didn't work like the rest of them.

I told Jinks about all this----hoping to learn the what and how of it. (BIG mistake!!)

WELL----He had a conniption fit!! "They NEVER should have done that!! It'll skip chambers in rapid double action fire! I NEVER would have allowed that!!" I didn't have the heart to tell him about half of the half a box car full of ammo that had been run through that gun had been rapid, double action fire-------in my (failed) efforts to emulate McGivern---and that it had never missed a beat------not once!!

So---how to and what to? I don't know--which is to say I've never done it. I've sat and stared, and have an idea, but by the time all this came to light I was a whole lot more collector and a whole lot less shooter, and had no need. If it was me (and I had a need), I'd be on the phone to the big time gunsmiths.

Ralph Tremaine

A couple more comments.

First for Ralph,
Feel the leading edge of your .22 Masterpieces' cylinder stop. I never cared which is the leading edge either. Since taking material off the non-leading edge can not effect functioning I just dulled both edges. However, our little pea brains can figure it out. Since we know which way S&W cylinders rotate we know the leading edge has to be the side of the stop that is not on the sideplate side of the gun. I'll bet S&W dulled your stop's edge while they polishing everything and dulling the edge is the only change they made that effected the turn line but I'm not betting money and I've been wrong before. Comparing how early your Masterpiece's stop snaps up to your other S&Ws what do you see?

Second for Bill,
It is too late for stoning you cylinder stop to make any difference. The last blued S&W revolver that I bought in like new condition was a 17-4. I justified paying its price by telling myself I'd get my money's worth out of it by using it. I drove it straight from the store to the opening night of a bullseye league then shot the league with it. That guaranteed it would develop an avoidable turn line. In hind sight I should have shot the first match with the gun I already had in the car and stoned its stop before the second match, but some how I have no regrets. If memory serves my first score was pretty good. Like yours, my turn line is there to stay.

It also depends on the revolver lockwork itself.

With Colt SAAs or the V-spring action DA's, the bolt is designed to drop in the lead itself, a very short distance from the notch. The only "turn lines" you would see on these types of guns is wear in the lead, UNLESS you make it a habit of turning the cylinder while the bolt is between the leads. If you load an SAA with the "John Wayne" approach and cock the hammer and lower it, no problems. Likewise, with a V-spring DA Colt when you close the cylinder, do not rotate it by hand into the next notch. Simply cock the hammer and lower it, or just pull the trigger if your gun doesn't have a hammer spur.

For S&W guns or Mark III or newer Colt DA guns, it's a whole different ballgame.

The cylinder stop is designed to drop between the leads and a long way away from the notch, directly onto the cylinder. The spring is relatively weak on these designs (doesn't need to be strong since the bolt drops so far before the leads). There's nothing you can do on these designs. You WILL see turn lines over time.

Colt takes the approach to make the whole cylinder a "lead" in the newer guns like the Python...each lead is huge.

So bottom line: if you see heavy turn lines on a SAA or V-Spring Colt, be leery. Someone may not have handled it properly over a long period of time, or the gun may be exhibiting "early bolt drop" from wear that wasn't taken care of. For the newer Colts or all S&W's, don't worry about a turn line. It's unavoidable with use and designed to be that way.

"smithra66" brings up more than an interesting point----Colt DA's with V springs.

I had one. We called it the Roper Colt----it had the whole treatment: Roper grips, sights, and action job. One aspect of the action job is germane here---the cylinder stop timing---and the accompanying sounds (Although the sounds were significant enough to call them NOISE!!).

So----cock the hammer: As soon as it (the trigger actually) moved, the cylinder stop SNAPPED down. It stayed down until the next chamber was almost in line, and then it SNAPPED up. There was more than enough power behind it to make the king of all turn rings, except for the fact that it SNAPPED up into the relieved lead into the next notch----AND the bluing in the leads had been polished off----leaving metal the same color as a turn ring. So there was a turn ring----maybe 1/8-3/16" long in each lead---but it was invisible.

Ralph Tremaine

"turn lines" aren't as noticeable on stainless steel revolvers. just sayin.

There you go!!

Buy stainless, and have your cake and eat it-------no pesky turn rings to speak of and no bills from the gunsmith!!

Ralph Tremaine

Roy Jinks is not just an S&W historian but also spent many years at S&W as a worker and manager. He has said that turn rings on hand ejectors are "normal". If you don't want one buy only NIB guns that don't have one yet and never shoot them. Also look for/feel any burrs on the cylinder stop and clean them up.

Heavily used S&W revolvers also can develop peening on the stop notch which can/does cause skipping over the stop. If it happens to you during a match you wont be a happy shooter(I know!). This peening is most common in heavily used stainless steel revolvers than carbon steel due to hardness differences. This condition was heavily debated on the Enos forums about 10 yrs. ago. If your gun has this problem a good revolversmith can clean it up for you.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

I notice turn lines on stainless finish revolvers too they match the finish so there hidden.

Now would you leave the turnlines or stone the edge of the cylinder stop and reblue it, your honest opinion.

The replies in this thread have been interesting and informative.

Every S&W I own has a turn line, including the stainless steel and nickel models.

Don't reblue, and don't fret about the turn lines.

Rebluing might have a more adverse value result than turn lines.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

I've never even thought of doing that. I thought it's ridiculous before reading this obvious flaw in the reasoning:

"Might" was a poor choice of words. It definitely will.

Just enjoy your revolver. Perhaps it needs a trip to range to remind you why we own guns.

I have two m28’s and one m28-2. Ill leave the turn lined one alone you guys are the best when it comes to advise. I was in the past thinking about having one redone in nickel and you guys saved another orginal one.

The m28/m28-2 are sweet they have awesome triggers. Very well balanced 6” barreled revolver.

Thanks again.

I saw a boob tube gun guy who collects expensive revolvers. He places black tape along the cylinder sections to avoid lines while shooting.
I think his moniker is giant sized potatoe.

I have bunch of S&W revolvers, I,J,K,L,N,X and every one of them has a turn line. I plan to keep on getting more and shooting them until I find one that doesn't get a turn line. I am picking up my new 431PD today, Maybe that will be the ONE.

Just carry a black Sharpie at the range. Each time you reload, paint over the turn line with the marker. Remember, be sure to include this procedure in your reloading drills......the turn line police might be watching.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Someone always wants to beat the system or in this case, the engineers. Figure out how to make something work in a way it was not designed to work to show what a smart idea they have! A turn line shows the revolver is operating properly. It is a by product of proper operation. Slight stoning of the offending side of the cylinder stop is the only approved way of addressing the issue. Anything other than that is tampering with the proper operation of the revolver which could cause it to fail when it is needed the most. If the stop does not rub the cylinder or have the spring tension to engage the cylinder notch then it will not lock the cylinder when it reaches the notch and a light lock into the notch could cause it to jump out under recoil. Maybe individuals that are bothered by the turn line should trade for an auto?

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S&W factory revolver armorer

Then they would worry about the wear on the barrel from the slide rubbing on it.

I would sooner have an S&W revolver with a turn line, versus one where some guy who thinks he's a gunsmith takes a stone to the cylinder stop. The cylinder stop is a hand fitted part, anyone who thinks they can improve on it is BSing themselves. In looking at a used S&W for sale, there are better indicators to judge how worn it is. Look for wear on the recoil shield, the ejector rod, and the actual condition of the cylinder stop notches.

I polish, not stone, the tops of my cylinder stops. I use a fine Cratex rubber in a rotary tool to give a mirror shine to the tops of my stops(or bolts?) and use same to break any sharp edges along the top. Unless the thing is worn out, you will not remove any material that would affect the dimensions of the part. And it minimizes the ringing on any of the guns, I also do it on other revolvers. If someone is a total knucklehead they could use the wrong tool and remove material or damage the part I suppose. Watch the YT videos about the bozos that try to polish their barrels with a sanding disc, etc. But this is safe. I also use Cratex to polish up feed ramps in autos. All you need is some common sense. Obviously it is metal on metal so if there is any sort of film of lubrication on your cylinder such as silicone cloth or protective oil film, in combination with low friction from a polished stop, that will reduce it. But it will never go away completely with two metals of same hardness.

Very important. You do NOT want to remove any material to change the dimension of the bolt. I've had problems with over stoned bolts on an old Colt, and it would skip out of the notches on fast double action firing because the bolt itself was compromised from stoning.

The leading edge of the bolt that contacts the edge of the notch to stop the cylinder must be left intact and sharp shouldered so that it can make full contact.

Yea I never mess with the rest of the stop, just the top and the side edges. And I am smoothing the edges on a microscopic scale practically, not "rounding them off". It probably depends on the gun, how rough the stop was made to begin with. The only time I ever replaced a stop was with an old Victory model that had been thru Britain and into Pakistan or India and needed refurb. The top had a flat spot worn on it from decades of hard use. If you were especially nervous you could only polish the center of the top, which is the part that contacts the cylinder.

Here is a solution that will eliminate turn lines without modification to the revolver. Take a piece of .0039987 thick plastic, it can't be .0039986 or .0039988 in thickness or it will not work. Length should be about 3 inches, and width .50.... Now slide it between the cylinder stop and the cylinder, prior to cocking the revolver. Cock the revolver, slide the shim out, let the cylinder stop engage the cylinder stop notch, apply the fundamentals, and fire your revolver. Do this when ever cycling the action. This will significantly eliminate any turn line on your revolver, and when you get old and can't shoot anymore, or when your time comes, you can then guarantee that someone else will be able to enjoy and use the revolver as it was intended.

haha darn, my calipers only go down .001" accuracy.

There are stones and there are stones. To be clear I do not use ordinary hardware store stones for this purpose. I use an old Case translucent naviculite (real rock) stone that feels as smooth as window glass.

This topic has been in many threads. I do not recall another thread getting so emotional.

Kind of sad. Today's obsessive folks probably have a tough time dealing with something as insignificant as turn lines.

Hmmm. Guess I've missed what you perceive as "emotional."

Thread needs a photo. This is the most prominent turn line I've seen: October 1953 .38 Chiefs Special Airweight, 1 of 923 square butts with an aluminum cylinder. Obviously well used, and the frame is not cracked.

My bottom line: a turn line is a rite of passage.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

I’ll see your turn line and raise you one.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Ok it’s the nature of the beast not a higher than normal or improperly fitted cylinder stop. I got it. Thanks for the education.

Much ado about nothing.

Second problem the side of the trigger is wearing against the frame. I’m thinking by putting a shim in there it will stop the wear? Look closely at the pic.

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Sorry I asked a dumb question.

Wasn't a dumb question! It's been asked before and will be asked again. As we all have something to learn from someone's question. Besides, how would you know if you didn't ask?

No telling how many other folks were wondering the same thing, and did not ask. Now they learned something too!

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Turn lines happen, worse on some than on others. Some things can be done to lessen the wear (soften the sharp edges). But, this looks to be an example of a stop modification or replacement. Making a change of where the two meet will result in this. Here's the rub - break out the abrasives and takes your chances.....
In the end, some are factory fitted better than others. I have had two K22's that were done quite well and resisted the telltale wear.
Both were pre-1955.

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Proud NRA Endowment Member

I've been in the retail gun business and have opened more fresh from the factory boxes than most. Smith & Wesson revolvers come from the factory with turn lines. A turn line doesn't bother me one bit.

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Bill Bates

Let’s say in a sale with a dealer with a new gun the turn line won’t matter right?

How about trading a revolver in with a turn line? Will the dealer make a lower offer?

How about us the buyer does a turn line turn you off or you want a lower price?

Whats worse than the turnline are sellers that are SO sure it ruins the value of the gun they zip tie it closed so you can't cycle the trigger. Unless the line is a GOUGE I could not care any less...even if the line is on an "unfired" revolver. I think some people carry things too far..

30 years ago I worked in a Metro-Detroit area gun shop. Whenever someone brought in a S&W revolver in to sell, or trade, the owner would take the revolver, ensure it was unloaded, and then cradle it in his non-firing hand, and when he'd cycle the action with his firing hand for a "function check", he'd put heavy drag on the cylinder with three fingers, while he cocked it single action, then, after it was cocked single action, he'd rotate the cylinder a little, and you'd hear the audible click of it going into battery, at which point he'd loudly announce to anyone in ear shot, "this guns outta time, I'm gonna have to send it back to S&W to get it repaired, that's gonna cost $$$, and he'd beat the owner down on the price.

Whats the point? I don't know, I guess to illustrate that you should educate yourself on the mechanism and function of whatever weapon or tool you might purchase.

I've said it before, there are more important things too inspect when buying a revolver than a turn line. The first thing I look at is the overall condition of the revolver, whats the finish look like, and what condition are the stocks? Are any of the screw heads deformed from someone using a heavy hand or incorrect screw driver?(boogered up is the correct technical term) If its the front side plate screw, depending on how bad it is, well I can understand it, as that one retains the cylinder & crane, and some guys like to take the cylinder out for cleaning. If the other two screws are boogered up, pass on the gun, as someone has had the side plate off, and it begs the question as to why. Another sign is if the rear side plate screw is where the middle one is supposed to go. The rear one has a flat head, and should only be placed where it was made to go.

From there I look at the cylinder stop notches, are they peened over from excessive firing? Next, open the action, give the cylinder a spin, does it spin freely? Be sure to observe the cylinder and the ejector rod while its spinning to see if they spin straight. Depress the ejector rod, does it bind, or does it move smoothly? Do this with the cylinder in a few different positions. Also, whats the finish like on the ejector rod? Is it 100%, 90% etc? or is it worn clean off? This is a great indicator as to how much the revolver has been fired.

Next look at the face of the Recoil Shield, this is a great place to estimate wear from firing, most revolvers will have some of the finish missing, with little semi-circles from the cartridge cases bouncing off the recoil shield from firing. Once in a while you'll find a revolver that's been fired so much that the finish on the recoil shield will have complete circles worn off from the cartridge cases.

Look at the overall condition of the extractor, are any of the lugs deformed that the hand pushes against? Look to see that the two extractor pins are present and not loose, they are located under the extractor and can be inspected with the extractor depressed.


While you have the action opened, inspect the chambers, and the bore, a bulged barrel and a blown chamber are not always visible from the outside of the gun. Also look a the forcing cone for cracks, and the area directly above the forcing cone on the top strap for excessive flame cutting.

Also, you can look at the hand through the window that it protrudes from, check to see if it looks chipped or deformed, you can manually pull the cylinder latch backwards, and cock the revolver single action to see the hand protrude from the window for inspection.

After that, close the action, and cock it slowly on every chamber, the cylinder should go into battery on every chamber, if you don't hear a click from the cylinder stop seating into the cylinder stop notches, chances are the revolver is out of time. Sometimes debris from firing, or a bristle from a bronze bore brush will get lodged somewhere and cause the revolver to go out of time, as a buyer, it might be difficult to determine, and if the revolver is that dirty, chances are you'd pass on it already.

While the revolver is cocked, gently push forward on the hammer, it should not fall. If it falls, something is worn out, either from use or a gunsmith doing a trigger job. If anyone boasts that the S&W revolver they are selling has had a Single Action trigger job done to it, walk away fast. Smith & Wesson revolvers have outstanding single action trigger pulls out of the box, and anytime someone does a single action trigger job to one, well, in my opinion, that revolver is rapidly on its way to being unsafe and unserviceable.

If your able to dry fire the revolver, hold the trigger back after the hammer falls, and gently check for side to side play on each chamber, see that its uniform, there will be some movement. If you observed any deformed or peened over lugs on the extractor, you'll feel it in the side to side movement not being uniform.

More important than side to side play is end-shake, meaning cylinder fore and aft play. This is usually found on magnum revolvers that have been fired excessively. Excessive end shake can result in misfires, and while a good gun smith can fix this, personally I would pass.

Another thing to check is the front and rear sights, are they loose? Old school S&W's, most of them are tight, these sight issues are easily corrected. Again, look at screws on the sights for abuse. Is the rear sight blade bent, or one of the corners damaged?

Regarding the turn line, I'd be more concerned with one that had uneven wear. Uniform wear is OK.

Regarding bore condition, I prefer to use descriptions, as opposed to generalizations, "bright and shiny with strong lands and grooves" or "like looking through a hunk of sewer pipe".

I hope I was not too long on the tooth on this post. Thank you.

I’ve seen this subject beat to death on here. One poster has shown how different designs in mechanical geometry do what they do. I’ve owned S&W
since early 70s and always had a turn line on any that I owned. As many Colt handguns I’ve owned in that same period I never owned a Colt SAA until like four years ago. After getting educated by how to properly handle a Colt SAA,if done correctly NO turn line. My blue CH 45 ACP has been shot hundreds of times and cycled into the thousands,no turn line! You will get a
little blue loss in the cylinder notches from where but very little. I realize in my picture the ACP cylinder is out of the gun so you can’t see the lack of a turn line but trust me it looks just like the 45 Colt cylinder that’s in the gun.
Pete

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NRA LIFE 1974