I have a Model 49, coil mainspring variety, no dash, serial in the 400 thousands range.
After much pondering it seems as though my bolt is too short to make opening the cylinder easy. Numrich has two it offers for sale, one seems more genuine (SKU # 297260A)than the other as it is $53.75 ++ and the other (SKU # 1516020B) is $32 ++. I don't really know what the difference is between the two but both are expensive for me right now.
The "nose" of the bolt, for want of a better name, appears to be pressed into the body of the bolt, as it appears as though it could be a stepped piece, smaller OD into the body of the bolt, larger OD goes through the frame to push against the center pin to release the cylinder. I wonder if with great care, someone might be able to tap on the back side of the "nose" of the bolt to push it out a bit and make it longer.
I have removed the bolt and brushed it and the frame where it goes through to make crud accumulation a non factor in my problem.
Any thoughts?

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

The problem isn't necessarily the bolt itself, but that it wasn't properly fitted. When in the fully forward position, the bolt should be at least flush/level with the surface of the breech face. Often, they aren't.

DO NOT TRY TO MOVE THE "NOSE"! The proper way to fix this is to dress the surface of the bolt body that limits forward motion of the bolt. (The front face of the part the "nose" is on.) Careful work with a file will allow the nose of the bolt to come flush/level with the breech face. You're really not going to have to remove that much material, try to keep the front surface even compared to the back. Make sure your file has a safe edge to keep from damaging the nose.

You might also take a look at the position of the bolt in the frame after you remove the thumbpiece. On occasion, I have found that the installed thumbiece can inhibit the proper, full forward motion of the bolt in the frame due to interference.

You may need to remove a small amount of material from the front of the "boss" on the bottom of the thumbpiece that fits down inside the frame cutout when it is installed. Too much material here can cause the forward movement of the bolt to be inhibited.

I would also check the condition of the tip of the center pin that extends into the frame when the cylinder is closed, which is supposed to crowned. (as opposed to a "flat" spot on top of the crown due to wear)

More often than not, (and based on your description of the problem), interference during opening and closing of the cylinder is due to problems with the front locking bolt. Issues here can include the overall length of the center pin (too short), wear or factory mis-fitting of the front locking bolt, and damage or wear to the end of the extractor rod.

(A few of things on the list to check while troubleshooting your current problem)

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Or a small amount of crud in either of the 2 spots mentioned by Armour and WR Moore

A really thorough cleaning by a qualified gunsmith every 20 or 30 years often completely cures small issues in revolvers 20-120 years old.

Make sure the extractor rod (housing for the ctr pin) is screwed in all the way tight.

Make sure the thumbpiece to release the cyl for opening is not bumping into the recoil shield in front of it.

If those things checkout OK, and the ctr pin does not come out flush with the front end of the extractor rod when the ctr pin is pushed forward from the rear until flush with the extractor star:

As said above, file the front end of the extractor rod until the ctr pin can be pushed to be flush with the front end of the extractor rod or even slightly stick out a tiny bit.

You can do this with everything still installed in the gun.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Since my memory has been joggled by the comments on the thumb piece......when the cylinder is closed, the thumb piece is supposed to have just a smidgen of rearward movement. This makes sure that the center pin is all the way to the rear. If not, some filing on the back end of the thumb piece boss is needed.

To all, thanks very much for your input!
To WR Moore, I hesitate to go after the front of the bolt with a file. I don't have a file fine enough and don't have one with a blank edge, plus I have heard that lots of parts are case hardened to only 6 thou, and if I start filing I might go through the hardening. I did clean that part of the bolt and also the frame where it contacts it. The bolt does feel, if I run my finger across the breech with the cylinder open, as though it is flush. I tried to put a small straight edge in the breech to look for any daylight, but the breech is not flat enough long enough for that to work.
To Armorer, Seems that the thumbpiece is not the problem. Tip of the centerpiece is rounded; there is a slight dimple at the end of the "nose" of the bolt, can't feel it but can see it as a kind of bright spot. How can I tell if it is the front or rear locking system which makes it hard to open the cylinder sometimes. (I find if I hold the gun in my right hand and use my left hand two middle fingers to push the cylinder out it opens much more easily than doing it some other way.)
To Steelslaver, I cleaned the bolt and frame pretty thoroughly, I was hoping that years of crud would be the problem. And it may have helped some, the cleaning that is.
To Biku324, I can't claim to be a gunsmith but I did do a pretty thorough cleaning in the problem area.
To Hondo44, the extractor rod is tight. I can't move it, I don't even know which way it would unscrew and have no way to loosen it even if I did know which way to turn. Also I understand that quite a bit of damage can be done here. The center pin appears to come out flush, or very close. I hesitate to attack the extractor rod with a file, I could make a pretty nice mess of that!
And so, I guess for the moment I will just use two hands as described to open the cylinder, works OK here at home, will find out more next range trip.
BTW, This is an old gun, I am at least the third owner and the hole in the breechface is slightly egg shaped, probably from the center pin I would guess. There probably is not a fix for that is there? And ... is there a specification for the bolt, i.e. overall length, length of the "nose" etc.? or are those things all done by hand, for each individual gun?

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

A few more questions: How can I determine whether my extractor rod is right or left thread? Is there a special tool to remove it? Is there a spec for centerpiece length?

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

There is no spec length of the ctr pin or rod; they're fitted to each gun.

The egg shape of the rear lock hole in the breech face indicates wear but is not necessary to fix. It can be fixed by replacing the bushing with the hole in it but you don't need to go there!

With your serial # we can tell you if your extractor rod is right or left hand thread. And since your gun is stamped Mod 49 it's most likely left hand thread. But I would not mess with it, just run plenty of cleaning oil down the ctr pin thru the extractor rod.

Two hands is usually used to swing open the cyl.

The extractor rod is not a case hardened part. The only fix that appears to apply to your gun to improve ease of opening since the rear bolt is flush with the breech face, is a file stroke or two (fine or rough) on the front end of the extractor rod.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The bolt isn't one of the case hardened parts, it files rather easily. Files are cheap, you need some. A safe edge is as close as the nearest grinding wheel.

BTW, to check the proper length of the extractor/ejector rod, use something flat to push the center pin flush with the extractor star. The center pin should be somewhere between flush with the end of the extractor rod and 0.005 in past the end.

If you've been opening the cylinder by flicking your wrist to fling it open, don't admit it, just STOP!

You don't need a safe file for the end of the extractor rod. Only if you were to file the back of the rear bolt.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hi Hondo44,
Where the egg shape is I don't discern any kind of bushing. Just a precision hole in the frame at the breech face. Maybe it's really a bushing, but if it is I can't tell. Understood that I don't need to go there. When the cylinder is closed there is side to side movement possible, however when the cylinder is open, if I hold the end of the center piece which goes into the frame, that seems to be where the movement is. I doubt that the centerpiece is moving in the frame because the hole is a little egg shaped.
The serial number is J482528. I think that means this gun was made in 1976 or 1977. The only reason I wanted to know about removing that extractor rod was in case the center pin is too short; so that I could get a longer one. If there is no spec for length then perhaps, much as I hate to do it, I should consider filing the end of the extractor rod. I hesitate to do that simply because I am not really certain I can do a professional job on something that small. I have lots of files, big and little, but never claimed to be a competent machinist. I have read that old time machinists could hold flats to .001" with just files.
I am starting to think that filing the extractor rod is most likely the way to go. I also have one other Smith, a model 10-5, made in 1981, and when I checked the center pin on that gun (holding the fat part of my small 90 degree straight edge up against the cylinder ratchets) the center pin is ever so slightly proud and that gun opens easily.
Again Hi Hondo44, I realize I don't need a safe file to work on the extractor rod.
I suppose the best way to tackle that job would be to take the cylinder out and put it a well padded vise situation.
BTW, if, in fact it is the front of the center pin which is causing the hard opening, shouldn't there be evidence of things not being correct either at the end of the extractor rod where the locking bolt leaves the confines of the inside of the extractor rod, cause by the center pin resisting being released? Or possibly some metal marring on the locking bolt surface? I can't really see anything like that.
Hello WR Moore,
I have lots of files, just hesitant to attack my gun! As mentioned above, I also have an older 10-5, and when I press a really flat surface at the frame end of the center pin I see that it does go past the extractor rod the tiniest bit. I don't have a way to hold that set up to measure, but half a thou could be it. It's not very much but may be enough.
BTW no admission needed, I have never attempted to open any of my revolvers by flipping them that way. Actually I never even thought about it. I have had other Smith revolvers in the past, a couple of 29s in wood cases, a nice nickel 19, and a blue 17. Sadly, circumstances caused me to have to sell them all years ago. (sniff)
To all: I went to Midway and saw a tool to remove extractor rods, a pair of vice grips with inserts! How crude. I suppose it works but I would be concerned about putting the roundness of the extractor rod at risk. Just out of curiousity as I don't really plan to remove it, what threads does my extractor rod have?
Again, thanks to you both for your input, it is much appreciated.

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

OK, let's take a look at the locking bolt. That's the little plunger under the barrel. You should be able to press that flush with it's housing. Then, look at the end of the item that enters the extractor rod. It's supposed to have a slight flat on it. I've seen the occasional knife edge there that can catch on the extractor rod internal bevel.

If the locking bolt doesn't go flush, you can remove it and file the forward edge of the notch to allow it more travel. But, again, a safe edge file is the necessary tool. If you've got a knife edge on the end, a regular file will work fine to put a flat on it. Look at your other revolver to see what it's supposed to look like.

I've never seen it as the sole cause, but excessive cylinder endplay (back and forth movement of the cylinder on the yoke) can affect the center pin travel.

And here you thought revolvers were simple

Many of the common ejector/extractor rod removal tools can come up short on ability to hold the rod tight in cases where the assembler got it really guttentight.

There is always, S&W.

Good call on the front locking bolt.

The rear tip of that bolt is actually cut to a cone shape first, then the 'flat' or angled cam surface is cut on the left side for the extractor rod to 'cam' the bolt forward when closing the cyl. The cone shape allows the bolt to 'nest' and center itself in the ctr pin hole in the extractor rod tip.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

To WR Moore and Hondo44, Very interesting posts. I looked closely at both revolvers and lo and behold - I think someone may already have tried to work on the front locking situation on the 49. The locking bolt is both shorter and may have already been filed on the slanted side as the angled cut goes almost all the way to the barrel housing. In addition the extractor rod on the other revolver has a bit of unknurled metal at the end and the extractor rod on the problem child has none and looks flat not kind of rounded at the end. The problem child extractor rod end appears to have been filed by someone at some point (I am at least the 3rd owner of this one) and the extractor end has much more of a factory appearance. I wonder about swapping bolts, just to see if that makes a difference, or are different guns so likely to be different that that would not prove much.

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

No knurling (machined checkering) on the front end of the Extractor rod is a lead pipe cinch that the rod was modified from a longer one!! There lies the problem; improper fitting!

You no doubt have a 2" barrel, the majority are with just a few hundred 3" barrels. Is there any sign of the barrel/front sight being cut? Or perhaps the original rod was bent and a longer rod from any of many other J frame models, was cut and substituted.

New rods are not expensive; check:

Gun Parts Corp: Successor to Numrich Arms; many gun parts.
226 Williams Lane, West Hurley, NY 12491
Phone: 845-679-2417
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: Gun Parts & Firearm Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts



Or:

‘Guns & Gun Parts’ (Recommended by S&W)
(413) 732-9938
983 Westfield St
West Springfield MA 01089-3813
EMAIL: [email protected]
Guns n Parts - New and Used Guns Bought and Sold. no parts list here.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Since your other gun is a model 10, it's a different frame size and the extractor rod is too long for the model 49.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

2" barrel yes, (actually 1 7/8"), and I did not express myself well about the knurling. There is knurling on the rod, on both guns' rods. The difference is that the "other" gun, the Model 10, has a space at the end of the knurling where there is a thin band of no knurling where the end of the rod is beveled. The 49 rod has no beveling at the end of the knurling, it is just flat across as though someone filed it at some point.

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

I was not thinking of swapping rods but bolts, same frame caveat may apply however.

Anyway ... I have opened and closed the 49 100 times since starting this thread, so I will just live with it for a while.

Off topic ... I have been a collector/shooter for some 30 years but until really downsizing, from 120 pistols and revolvers to about 6, I had never really spent so much time trying to understand the ins and outs of S&Ws.
I have recently started loading, and have been loading some LHBWC bullets and on another forum have been discussing various aspects of loading .38 LHBWC. Inasmuch as I am not loading for a Model 52, the bullets can be proud from the case; indeed one shooter mentioned loading 1/4" proud. Out of curiosity I have tried dropping .38 LHBWC projectiles into the cylinders of both my .38s. In both cases the bullet, by itself, will not drop through an open cylinder. It stops where there is a kind of ring inside the cylinder, whether caused by shooting gasses or not, I don't know. I do know that vigorous cleaning of the cylinder chamber does not make the WC bullet drop through. I have had no problems I am aware of shooting these loads through either gun. Loaded rounds chamber (or "plunk" if you like) just fine. What's going on? Is the cylinder bore supposed to be as wide at one end as the other?
Thanks in advance for your knowledge.

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

No, the bullets are not supposed to drop through. Since the reamers have odd numbers of flutes, I can't tell if the chamber throat is slightly tapered or just slightly smaller than the bullet, which in lead should be 0.358 in. At any rate, that's the way they're supposed to be.

Also, the front end of the extractor/ejector rod is supposed to have a very slight bevel on it to mate with the flat on the locking bolt to cam the locking bolt forward with less effort. There's also supposed to be a slight chamfer on the inside of the front of the e/e rod to better mate with the cone on the locking bolt.

No, the locking bolt on the 49 and the model 10 are not the same size.

Added edit: the force needed to move the thumb piece on the J frames can be stiff. If you don't hold the thumb piece all the way forward while trying to swing the cylinder out, you may find it difficult since the center pin isn't all the way forward. Just on general principles, you might want to replace the locking bolt and spring.

Sorry, I meant bolts, they won't swap. But you can reshape the 49 bolt to match the model 10 proper bolt shape.

No. The front end of the chamber after the "ring" is called the throat and it's made that way because it's the bullet size, not the case size which is larger diameter. Bullets should drop thru snugly if the chamber is clean. If they don't, the bullets are being squeezed down smaller than your barrel size; this ruins accuracy. Size your bullets to the throat size.

The loaded rounds "plunk" into the chambers because the majority of the largest diameter of the bullet is still in the case.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I had a similar problem on a Mod 15. The bolt nose piece was not coming flush with the recoil shield. The nose piece is actually pressed into the bolt. After properly seating in a vice, I was able to coax the nose piece out a bit further. That was a few years ago and the nose piece has shown no penchant for returning to it's original position. The nose piece is very very tight fit in the bolt. On my bolt, the nose piece is a bit recessed looking at the backside of where it is pressed into the bolt. I mean it was and still is but a little bit more.

The Model 15 that you have is a two piece bolt, but not all are. The 49 and all J frames have a one piece bolt.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The Model 49 bolt in my gun surely looks like a two piece. You can see where the "nose" of the bolt is actually machined in two diameters, a large one where it goes through the frame to push the center pin and a smaller one where it goes through the flat part of the bolt. Am I seeing things?

And ... unless I am mistaken, I am hearing two differing ideas about my lead HBWC bullets not falling freely through the .38 cal cylinders after they reach a ring, about 5/6th or something, of the way down the cylinder. One expert says they should not the other appears to be saying they should.
What am I missing?

Thanks all,

DJ

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

A .357 bullet should take a very light nudge to go through the throat.

If the end of your bolt is coming flush with your recoil shield that is not your problem. Even if it is a tiny bit low that is not your problem as the rear end of center pin is rounded. If the cylinder end of center pin can be pressed flush to ratchet face, that is not your problem. If the forward portion comes flush to tip of ejector rod while cylinder end is pressed flush at ratchet, that is not your problem. If you ejector rod is a tiny bit long and the lug under barrel can not be pressed in enough to clear it properly that is your problem. But, then if that is the case when you close cylinder it should hang up a bit right before closing as end of rod has to force its way past the lug tooth. Very simple to file a tiny bit off.

If your bolt end is not coming flush, take of the thumb piece and try it. If it comes flush then it is the thumb piece or slot for it. If it doesn't flush with the thumb piece off the blot needs adjusted as per WR Moores post #2, if it move forward and flush with it off it is as per Armorer in post #3 post. All this if the lug tooth under barrel move forward and aft easily and tip of ejector rod clears lug body of course

No, only one thing. They should be able fit thru the "throat" without being forced or deformed.

You should start the bullet from the front of the cyl to align it with the throat of the chamber. If you can lightly push it thru the throat with minimum finger pressure, the throat and bullet are properly sized to work correctly.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

OK, well I may be too stupid for words, and I had some entertainment with this bullet cylinder diameter business this afternoon. The back of the cylinders measures .382" near as I can judge, with minor +/-. The front of the cylinders measures .354" +/-. I have three bullets to measure, there is one sealed bag of plated with lead nose, labeled .357". My lead WC measures .355. My lead cowboy measures.356". I found some cloth which claims to be a lead remover, put that around a brass brush and spun it in the various chambers numerous times. Cloth came out nice and black but cylinder's id did not change measureably.
The bullets do not go through the cylinder with finger pressure, in fact I can't get them through at all, though I suppose with a punch and a hammer I could. Is my lead build up in the cylinder chambers that severe?
I had no idea before I began this thread that there was such a difference in cylinder i.d. front to back as appears in my old gun.

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

The back larger portion is reamed to speck for the case itself. The forward portion called the throat is actual bullet diameter. Case is larger because wall thickness plus bullet. If throat was case diameter accuracy would suck and gas's pressure would escape around bullet while it was just starting.Ib suspect your calipers are aff a ,001 or so. Because of bullet measurements. Homies are difficult to measure accurately without pin gages

Well, after exploring around the web I realize a couple of things: 1) My caliper is not the way to measure the throat and 2) Since I don't cast my bullets and have no sizing dies there isn't much I can do about the relationship between the throat and bullet diameters.
My gun pushes bullets out of the barrel when I pull the trigger and that's about all I know at this point, and that may be all I need to know.

__________________
Regards;

David Jackson

If you don't have any complaints with the accuracy, don't worry about the chamber throats. If not, reaming the chamber throats is the proper correction and most any smith can do it or you can rent a reamer.

P.S. You're not stupid, but just lacked a bit of information; now you don't.

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Jim
S&WCA #819