Strange J frame serial number?

Becket · #1 12-07-2021, 08:57 PM

Can’t find this aberration in the S&W book; perhaps a transition piece? Model 37 no-dash, serial number 27J349. Any thought on year of manufacture or any info? Never saw a J in that position before (see attachment )

SmithNut · #2 12-07-2021, 09:05 PM

It's called the floating "J", when the original series "Jxxxxxx" ran out of numbers they went to 1Jxxxxx, then 2Jxxxxx, etc., so yours is many iterations later.
All that ended in ~1980 when the 3Alpha4Numeric numbers were implemented and used throughout all the models.
According to the SCSW V4, yours falls into the 1975-76 date range.

Becket · #3 12-07-2021, 09:11 PM

Thanks for clearing that up for me, ‘preciated!

JP@AK · #4 12-07-2021, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmithNut

when the original series "Jxxxxxx" ran out of numbers they went to 1Jxxxxx, then 2Jxxxxx, etc.

According to the SCSW V4, yours falls into the 1975-76 date range.

This is not quite correct.

After J99999, sometime in 1970, the J numbers went to 1J1 through 1J9999. Then 2J1, etc. But note that there were no more than 5 digits surrounding the J.

Then, sometime in 1973, they went back to six digits with the J in first position, starting with J100000. That continued until sometime in 1982, when they started using 1Jxxxxx (five digits after the J and one in front of it - always a total of six digits). That lasted until sometime in 1983, when they went to the three alpha system.

So, your 27J349 (five total digits) is probably from 1971, possibly 1970.

SmithNut · #5 12-07-2021, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

This is not quite correct.

After J99999, sometime in 1970, the J numbers went to 1J1 through 1J9999. Then 2J1, etc. But note that there were no more than 5 digits surrounding the J.

Then, sometime in 1973, they went back to six digits with the J in first position, starting with J100000. That continued until sometime in 1982, when they started using 1Jxxxxx (five digits after the J and one in front of it - always a total of six digits). That lasted until sometime in 1983, when they went to the three alpha system.

So, your 27J349 (five total digits) is probably from 1971, possibly 1970.

Ahhh, what's a digit between friends.... ??

You are right, of course, I was off a mere 4 years....

Close in terms of hand grenades and horseshoes....

At least I was in the right decade...

steelslaver · #6 12-08-2021, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

This is not quite correct.

After J99999, sometime in 1970, the J numbers went to 1J1 through 1J9999. Then 2J1, etc. But note that there were no more than 5 digits surrounding the J.

Then, sometime in 1973, they went back to six digits with the J in first position, starting with J100000. That continued until sometime in 1982, when they started using 1Jxxxxx (five digits after the J and one in front of it - always a total of six digits). That lasted until sometime in 1983, when they went to the three alpha system.

So, your 27J349 (five total digits) is probably from 1971, possibly 1970.

Knew about the floating J but, not about the change to 6 digits. Another interesting Weird S&W fact

cmansguns · #7 12-08-2021, 09:30 AM

Seeing what JP posted about the 6 digit J frame s/n's finally cleared up some of my guns collections. I didn't want to send for Letters as I had other guns needing LOA's before but my research at the time consisted of this Forum and SCSW and these were a little harder than most to clear up but the now time sequence posted by JP fits right in.

Model 36-1, 3" HB, Blue s/n J591395 (1976)
Model 36-1, 3" HB, Nickel s/n J938523 (1982)
Model 60 no dash, s/n AES 2379 (1984)

If S&W was at mid 900,000's by 1982 it is pretty clear why they moved to the triple alpha system. Especially with the small J Frames. The butt would run out of room for a similar size font doing the 1J 7-digit thing or more.

JP@AK · #8 12-08-2021, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmansguns

Seeing what JP posted about the 6 digit J frame s/n's finally cleared up some of my guns collections.

I'm glad that was helpful. There is a lot of confusion out there about the "roving J." Remembering to count the digits will always help you out.

Quote:

If S&W was at mid 900,000's by 1982 it is pretty clear why they moved to the triple alpha system. Especially with the small J Frames. The butt would run out of room for a similar size font doing the 1J 7-digit thing or more.

Only rarely did S&W use 7 digits in a serial number. According to Roy, in the original K frame .38 M&P sequence, there was a 1 million number gun. He says it went straight to the museum. I believe he also told me once that there was an SV with 7 digits. Also a museum gun, if I recall correctly. I need to check with him on that one, as it relates to my SV/S prefix research.

two-bit cowboy · #9 12-08-2021, 11:52 AM

Howdy Becket.

In his book, History of Smith & Wesson, Dr. Roy Jinks calls the serial number series of your Chiefs Special Airweight the "roving J" series. My earliest roving J shipped in May '70 and my latest one shipped in April '76, but according to Roy's letter it likely sat in the vault for about five years.

Comparing yours to others in my database I'd guess yours shipped around fall of '71.

PeteC · #10 12-08-2021, 12:39 PM

It looks like they used up 100,000 possible serial numbers in 1969-1970, 300,000 in 1971-1972, and then over 1 million in the next 10 years. All before switching to the triple alpha prefix. I am surprised any one of those stayed in stock for 5 years!

edit: mine is somewhere in the middle of the range, and for once not an oddball or mystery J-frame

two-bit cowboy · #11 12-08-2021, 05:39 PM

That's a handsome 3" square butt Chiefs Special, Pete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteC

It looks like they used up 100,000 possible serial numbers in 1969-1970, 300,000 in 1971-1972,

How'd you come up with 300,000 for the roving J's?

PeteC · #12 12-08-2021, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by two-bit cowboy

That's a handsome 3" square butt Chiefs Special, Pete.

Thank you. Only all original J-Frame I own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by two-bit cowboy

How'd you come up with 300,000 for the roving J's?

Each J position and 5 decimal digits represents up to 100,000 possible unique serial numbers. It does not really matter where the J is placed. The SCSW lists the original J-prefix series and three series after that with the J in three positions. xJxxxx, xxJxxx, xxxJxx, from 1J1 (they did not seem to have used leading zeros) to 999J99.

In other words, you have your work cut out for you if you want to catalog a representative sample!

Mbrgr1 · #13 12-08-2021, 09:14 PM

I have a little floater, c1970 3J4***

Love it!

two-bit cowboy · #14 12-08-2021, 09:41 PM

Hmmm. I've never been accused of being a math whiz. Your math and mine don't jibe.

For each serial number with a single digit before the J there are 9,999 examples. (9x9999)

For each s/n with two digits before the J there are 999 examples. (99x999)

For each that begin with three digits, there are but 99 examples. (999x99)

I did the math one cold and stormy night. I came up with fewer than 180,000 between 1970 and 1976. If my math is off I'd like to know how to calculate the number manufactured.

As you suggest about cataloging, my database includes a small percentage, only 388 (change that to 389) examples from 1J227 to 997J66, and they span the model spectrum: Models 36, 36-1, 37, 38, 49, and 50.

PeteC · #15 12-08-2021, 10:42 PM

Your way is more accurate. If I do the math this way, 9×9999+99×999+999×99=287,793 combinations.
Sorry I was not more precise, your earlier post made me notice the transition between the 5 and six digit numbers for the first time.

two-bit cowboy · #16 12-08-2021, 11:44 PM

I should have written down my math.

There might be a problem with my last equation (999x99). Not thinking it through well enough to figure it out right now.

There wasn't really a transition between the 5-digit roving J and 6-digit serial numbers with the J in the second position. As Jack noted there was nearly a decade between the two. According to Dr. Jinks, the range began at 1J00001 in 1982 and ran through 1J47502 in 1983.

S&W introduced the 3-number, 4-letter s/n series in 1980 with the introduction of Models 58x and 68x. The company took its time to integrate all models into the new system. The J frames' turn came in 1983.

Becket · #17 12-09-2021, 11:49 AM

Wow great info! So mine is a 1971 manufacture, if it didn’t sit in storage? Any way without a letter to determine storage, or is it a 1 of 999 made/shipped in later 1971?

two-bit cowboy · #18 12-09-2021, 01:14 PM

S&W didn't track "manufacture" dates, only ship dates. A letter will tell you when it shipped, that's all.

Read Dr. Jinks' letter in the attached photo to see how he addresses the subject.

Becket · #19 12-09-2021, 07:26 PM

Thanks I didn’t know that; I thought the letter also incl actual manufacture dates.

BC38 · #20 12-09-2021, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbrgr1

I have a little floater, c1970 3J4***

Love it!

You have something else of note.
BIG PAWS!
Not too many people I know who can completely hide a J frame snub in the palm of their hand.

Becket · #21 12-10-2021, 05:54 AM

Told you giants were real.

JH1951 · #22 12-10-2021, 09:20 AM

One of the early pictures of a J-frame was in the hand of a giant. I always thought it was Lurch holding it......
From the S&W Centennial Catalog - 1952, page 21:
S&W Catalog 12 001.jpg
Strange J frame serial number?-s-w-catalog-12-001-jpg

Strange J frame serial number?-s-w-catalog-12-001-jpg

PeteC · #23 12-10-2021, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JH1951

One of the early pictures of a J-frame was in the hand of a giant. I always thought it was Lurch holding it......

When I was in college, I used to do photo editing and retouching in a darkroom that produced a lot of advertising newspaper and magazine photos...

Notice that there is a shadow of a hand, made by a diffused studio light, visible even on the dark backdrop. However, there is NO corresponding shadow from the Model 36 on the hand. If the revolver were photographed lying on the hand in one shot, there would be similar shadows, one from the hand on the background, and one from the revolver on the hand.
Also, the angle of the gun is not natural relative to the position of the hand. You can clearly see the top strap, so the gun was photographed from a slightly elevated angle. The hand, not so much.
Conclusion, a pic of the gun was superimposed on a pic of a hand, and the relative size was adjusted to make good advertising copy.
Now, compare to the pic posted by Mbrgr1. The gun is lying flat on that hand at a natural angle, top strap not visible, and there is a shadow under the gun.

On the plus side... it is a fine example of pre-photoshop image editing, when real craftsmen still worked in darkrooms with negatives, glass lenses, silver emulsions (and poisonous chemicals like mercury oxide). Can't duplicate that with Photoshop. and seems very appropriate for an early Chiefs Special.