Need help have model 60 .38 special the serial number on the butt of the frame is worn off is there any other places where it can be found? Thanks in advance for help.

It could not wear off somebody removed it mechanically.

If you are in the USA, you are in possession of an illegal firearm. I suggest that you contact the ATF immediately and inform them that you have a firearm with a defaced serial number, asking them how they want to deal with it.

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Only a cold warrior

Isn't the serial number on those M60s on the frame connection where the cylinder swings out?

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Nope, it isn't!

The serial number should also in the yoke cut out. BUT, the official LEGAL serial number needs to be on the butt. Sometimes you can get the ATF to allow it to be restamped.

I would not want to get caught with such a gun.


This comes up regularly. I did a bunch of reading and checking on this even emailed the ATF a couple time. At one time gunsmiths were allowed to remove original stamping and relocate them, That went by the way side quite a few years ago. I would think it better to have a law enforcement official or an attorney approach the ATF on dealing with this. Those that were assisted by law enforcement seem to have had fairly good luck getting gun back to legal. From what I have gathered it is a bit of a **** shoot, which agent you get and how they interpret the regs, Does he get the information before or after lunch?

Welcome aboard!
We could use more information and a photo or two would help. Guns with obliterated serial numbers are federally illegal and typically associated with criminal activity. We don't know if this question was asked in the correct sub-forum and it COULD be no problem if it's a later gun.

I have a model 60 with no serial number on the butt and it’s 100% legal. There was a brief period of time when S&W experimented with laser etching the number in various places, but not on the butt. The ATF later ruled that the required markings need to be at least .003” deep and S&W changed their process. Odds are this doesn’t apply to the OP’s gun, but we really don’t know.

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"I also cook."

That's very interesting. Thanks for pics.

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SOS USA

Previous to the 3-letter prefixes started in 1982 or so, round butt frames only have the SN on the butt. OP hasn't said how old his gun is, but the model number and series dash should be in the yoke cut.

Steelslayer
As stated by Ken L- No, the serial number on a M60 no dash is NOT on the frame where the cylinder swings out. It is NOT on the yoke cut out.

Generally, the frame of the handgun or pistol is serialized. The S&W M60 has the serial number on the butt of the frame. Edit: As stated not all model 60 variants have the serial number in this place. In some instanced like the Ruger MK series the “receiver” not the frame is serialized. And the location of the serial number can vary from manufacturer and model number. As with certain agency requirements some revolvers have their serial numbers just below the cylinder above the trigger like the NYPD variants. All of which are legal.

What definitely is not legal is possessing a revolver with a missing or defaced/modified serial number. That is a federal offense and will draw you a “directly go to jail” card as stated by others. Pointed questions will be asked such as where you obtained the weapon and how did the serial number “disappear.”

You will also need some substantial proof that what serial number you are claiming, is actually indeed the serial number to that particular firearm. This might be a difficult piece of information to produce. If you have such proof, I’m sure it is possible the weapon can be re-stamped or re-engraved but with proper legal procedure followed. Your best bet is to do some legal consultation outside of this forum to find the best way to get this accomplished as this is a serious legal matter.

Thanks for the info I’ll get it checked out. Don’t want no illegal firearms in my collection.

How do you know it is “worn off”? It would take quite a while and effort to accomplish that. Post a picture and go from there. My thoughts are an inexperienced owner…

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S&W factory revolver armorer

My curious question is (and I don't expect an answer will be provided) how did you come across this piece?

Problem: The serial number is recorded any time a modern pistol is LEGALLY transferred.

Solution: I have read where some serial numbers that have been defaced can be raised with chemicals.

A local FFL/Gunsmith may be able to help get this sorted out.

As mentioned, pretty tough without photos!

Smiles,

There appear to be some numbers on the right side of the butt. That may be the serial number.

Are the stocks stamped with the serial number? I know this wouldn't be the "legal" number, but at least you would have a starting place IF they are original to the gun.

I think it would have to be a pretty scarce gun to make me want to go through the effort to legally re-serialize it.... (A Model 60 ain't one of them...)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Got in touch with law enforcement they are checking it out and will give me an update when they get the results back. thanks guys for the help.

I’m not trying to be argumentative but for the discussion and for my knowledge base, I’ve got to ask what/why/how has it been determined that the butt is the official legal place?

On the frame flat behind the yoke is also on the frame and is not a removable part that can be taken off the frame so I would like to know why the butt should have any more legal standing than the frame flat behind the yoke.

I would guess standardization. I was in a local large sporting goods store maybe 10yrs ago and bought a used model 10 RB 2in. Clerk was filling out paperwork involved including my receipt and I was doing a final inspection on the gun and since prior owner had installed rubber grips that covered the butt and part of the sideplate. I had the grip removed to inspect the areas under the rubber for rust. I commented to the clerk that the serial # on the butt didn't match the one on the receipt. It turns out they had entered the assm # from the crane in their system when they bought the gun. After explaining about ser#'s vs assm#'s as far as whats legal it took a another couple hours till they corrected their books and I took gun home.

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SOS USA

Even if the firearm has the serial number in several locations, having even one of them defaced or removed is bad ju ju.

Second Circuit defines “altered” serial number on a firearm for purposes of the four-level enhancement under U.S.S.G. SS 2K2.1(b)(4)(B) to mean that at least one serial number on the firearm is illegible to the naked eye. - Federal Defenders of New York Blog

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Only a cold warrior

Actually according to the ATF none of the serial numbers on the frame can legally be removed. IF there is one or more on the frame beside the one on the butt they would all be the legal serial numbers. I was informed this by email on questioning about serial numbers and other markings. Interesting enough you can remove import marking, but they would prefer you don't.

I see I basically just repeated the information in the post above

I'll call nonsense on the "naked eye" part of the discussion, I've got at least one S&W Performance Center Limited pistol where they were dabbling in microstamping and you can definitely see exactly what they did and what it represents but using the naked eye, you'll need to line up a handful of people and get everyone's opinion on what their naked eye is able to read because it is hella small and done absolutely on purpose and it isn't altered in the slightest.

We also go off in to the weeds when we speak authoritatively about serial numbers in places other than the frame. Doing so suggests that it's deceptive or not legal to put a different barrel in to a Glock or perhaps a different slide, as Glock marks all three parts clearly with a matching serial number on a new production handgun.

I suggest there may be too much supposition.

...and shown clearly in post 7 with multiple pictures that at one time, Smith & Wesson doesn't agree with standardization.

The barrel, slide and other various other pieces are not the frame or receiver and not relevant. The ATF states the frame or the receiver as per Gun Control Act of 1968 PDF - Google Search

1230 deals with serial numbers. One of the statements is can not be readily removed, as barrels and slides are readily removed they hardly fit the bill. Also, parts are include in other portion of the law

I had a Model 60 2" stolen....ADA4392. It went missing when my dad died.
I still have the box.

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Terry
SWCA, SWHS, IWLA, NRA

The FBI can recover. A ground off SN. It has to do with change in the monocular structure of the steel where the SN was originally before removing. Any way the gun is illegal as it stands.

The serial number of my take down Browning .22 auto rifle is on the barrel. I bought the gun new in the early 1960s.

Of course years back some guns had no serial number at all!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

22s manufactured before 1968 without serial numbers are grandfathered from needing a serial number. I have 2 of them.

My 642 has the Serial Number on the Left side of the Frame under the Cylinder.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Not just .22's, I have seen a Savage 340, magazine fed bolt gun, chambered in 30-30 that was also manufactured sans serial number.

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.............SmithNut

Sorry for your troubles. If it turns out the model 60 is not legal, you can take all the parts off down to the bare frame and just turn that in. If you ever find a bare legal model 60 frame, instant complete gun.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Like SmithNut I also have a .30-30 Savage 340 made sans serial number.

Many of the FN mfg Browning semi auto rifles have their ser# stamped on the bbl. In Europe, many countries count the Bbl as the control part,,as in the USA the Frame is the control part (firearm).
Some of the Browning T-bolt rifles are also ser#'d on the bbl as well.

Before GCA 68, there was no regulation that said that cal .22rf long guns nor any shotguns had to have a mfg'rs ser# imprinted on them.
Some mfg'rs did number them, or some of their production,,some didn't number any of them.
Handguns regardless of caliber & center fire rifles were to be ser#'d .

GCA68 changed the regs and it then demanded that the .22rf cal long guns and all shotguns also be ser#'d as well.

So that's where the common slightly misleading statement comes from that usually states something like 'With the enactment of the GCA68 all firearms were required to be ser#'d.'

That's true,,but the rest of that unsaid is that before GCA68, all handguns and centerfire long guns were already required to be ser#'d.

There were several instances of mfg'rs not ser#ing some of their center fire rifle production in the pre-68 days.
Savage didn't ser# quite a number of the early production Model 219 break open rifles. The 22H/30-30 switch bbl rifle.
I've got one here right now for repair in 22Hornet.
That may have had something to do with them using the same action on their Model 220 shotgun,,a gun which would not have needed to be ser#'d.
Just a guess though.
The Savage Model 340 escaped w/some being unser#'d as well.That one just an oops I'd guess.

Marlin sent the first 4000+ Levermatic rifles in center fire form (256Win Mag) out the door w/o ser#'s in the mid 60's.
Marlin had orig ser#'d the earlier production .22rf Levermatic rifle,,then to save 3cents per rifle in labor,,stopped ser#'g them.
This was a perfectly legal move as it being pre-1968,,no ser# was necessary on a cal .22rf long gun.

Then a couple yrs later the centerfire Levermatic came out (64/65).
The production line made no room for the recv'rs to be ser#'d,,,likely since they had not ser#'d the other levermatics (22rf) they had been making for quite some time.

So as a result and until such time that someone finally spotted the issue,,4000+ unser#d 256WinMag Levermatics (mod62?) went out into the world.

The Treasury Dept was not happy (they were the Federal Firearms enforcement agency of the day pre-68)
But the 'fix' was to allow Marlin to issue a continuing recall on those unser#d rifles for the owners to vol return them to the factory for numbering,,at Marlins cost of course.
...Sure,,I'll send it right in...

Very few ever came back voluntarily. A few got stamped that happened to come in for repair.
Imagine the owner getting the repaired rifle back with a hand wacked thru the bluing new ser# on the left front of the frame.
We had a BATF (post 68) log for just the recalled Levermatics and their new ser#'s in the Repair Dept. It was not a long list.

The letter in post 31 clears up a lot of erroneous information floating around on the internet.

Several years ago I engaged a local gunsmith to refinish a Browning High Power with Cerakote. As you might be aware, the serial number on the BHP is stamped lightly on the frontstrap. When I picked it up a year later and took it home, I was horrified to realize that the serial number was no longer visible.

The gunsmith was no help at all; he denied obliterating the serial number, told me it was just covered by the new Cerakoting, and suggested I just shoot the pistol and enjoy it.

Realizing that I was, at that moment, in blatant violation of federal law, I decided to 'fess up to Uncle Sam immediately. I emailed my local ATF Field Office that evening, and advised them of the situation.

A few days later, an Intelligence Specialist from ATF contacted me, and we met so she could examine the BHP. I was fully prepared to surrender it to her at that time, but she told me that wasn't necessary. She took photos of it, and advised she would get back to me after consulting with her boss.

About a week later, she emailed me with an offer: ATF would assign a new serial number to the pistol, I would have that new serial number engraved on it per ATF's regulations, she would confirm the work had been done, and the matter would be closed. And that's exactly how the situation was resolved.

I was told by a relative who is a federal LE agent that it was probably my self-reporting, my willingness to be cooperative, and my lack of criminal intent, that tipped the scales in my favor, for they surely had the right to seize the pistol.

So if someone steals your car only the dashboard is considered stolen since that is where the VIN number is?

I’m curious as to where the OP obtained this M60? Bought new, used, inherited, found?

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I told you not to use Lifebuoy

I think the rules for firearms and vehicles may be a little different.

Just as with older guns, you may be able to register and insure an antique or vintage car that did not have a VIN. Wouldn’t want to go through that process with a newer car that came with a VIN, with or without the dashboard. And just maybe that number is stamped or recorded elsewhere in the vehicle, like in the OBD.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

That is not the only VIN plate on a vehicle.

Model 60 Smiths haven't been around all that long. Like many here I have guns +100 years old and the serial numbers are strong and generally look like they were stamped yesterday.

A photo of the gun would be helpful.

With a car I can sell the motor and its components, the sub frame, the transmission, the axles, wheel, the seats, the windows, electrical system the doors, trunk, hood, front fenders and lights without a title. The body however will need a title to license. Think chop shops. By the way the VIN in the dash is just a tag pop riveted on in most cars even if it was stamped right into the steel. It would not be that hard to change. Cut it out, tack weld another one from a wreck in its place and cover the cut and weld with the dash upholstery. I can never remember anybody looking at even the one on the dash, during a traffic stop even on my 75 Trans Am which was painted black and the title and for some time the registration, was the original white. When I moved to WA I did have to take my MT truck in for inspection and they checked the VIN, the non matching door wasn't even a hick up. In Montana I have never done anything but present a title from which ever state and got a new one.

I have also never had a LEO ask me to see the serial number on a gun. In this state at least he could ask, but not demand without some kind of probable cause or warrant. I would bet 90+% of LEOs would not know it was a proper S&W serial number, right font and alignment if a number was neatly stamped on the butt, unless it was sent to an actual forensic lab.

On a revolver I can stick any thing but the frame in the US mail. A firearms dealer can sell me anything but that bare frame with no 4473. On a semi auto it is the bare frame.

If during the sale or say a police search it turned out that a car door with a vin or a revolver cylinder with a serial number it somehow came out to be from a stolen car or revolver, it would be considered stolen property and I am sure there would be questions on how I got it.

That's what I would do. It's a parts gun for sure. Not worth the time and expense to change that.

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That's just somebody talkin.

The laws are ridiculous. This ought to be no different that a washing machine with a missing serial sticker.

The last thing I would do is involve law enforcement

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Pictures would help to resolve this controversy, please!

Smiles,

I too had an M60 entered into the system using an assembly number.

I had traded away an M60. Several years later I was contacted by the state's attorney general's office. I was asked if I ever owned a 40 foot flat bed trailer with serial number XXXXXXX. It turns out LEO firearms were registered with the AG's office!

Of course, I never owned that trailer. It turns out the M60 changed hands again and the system caught the error.

When I made the transfer I fully expected the transfer to be "legal" since I was a Deputy, and the department FFL made the transfer (4473)!

Yes, the serial number was on frame under the rubber Pacmayr grips! Yes, the assembly number must have been used.

Since that experience I always double check ser. numbers!

Smiles,