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01-20-2022, 06:26 PM
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No Politics Please
My question for today is whether a 586-1 thru 4 are superior firearms to the -8? Unless you feel the lock creates mechanical issues please leave it a non-issue.
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01-20-2022, 06:29 PM
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For the most part, the current production guns are mechanically fine, but I think the quality of workmanship was superior in the older guns, especially the no dashes. IMHO
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01-20-2022, 06:38 PM
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I prefer the looks of the earlier guns
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01-20-2022, 06:49 PM
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Absent Comrade
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People seem to prefer the older blueing.
Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk
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01-20-2022, 06:52 PM
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Thank you. The reason I am asking is I am in the market for a 586. I have bid on a few on the Broker and I have noticed that no dash through -4 are going for more than new ones. They seem like pretty recent production to be costing more than new
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01-20-2022, 06:56 PM
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The new ones are mechanically OK but they lack the workmanship and character of the older pieces. For what they are asking for the new ones, I would opt for an older model in the condition that you are willing to pay for.
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01-20-2022, 07:06 PM
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It really isn’t politics for me.
Some folks won’t ever notice the difference or if they notice it, to them it is small and they don’t care.
For me, the double action is obviously inferior with ILS equipped S&W revolvers. And the real proof was shown to me blatantly with the S&W Model 646 that I owned for more than a year. This was a special and odd run model that S&W may have built for the specific purpose of using up some leftover parts.
The 646 was an L-frame revolver in the era of the lock with the same internal parts used on the lock-equipped revolvers however S&W elected not to add the hole in the frame and the lock itself.
You can see the channel in the left side of the hammer and the net result is that the double action trigger stroke is undoubtedly different and in my hands, royally inferior to the dozen-plus other S&W revolvers I own and love.
The trigger pull feels like what it evolved in to: parts that were designed to drop in with almost no intervention from a real craftsman with a lifetime of daily hands-on experience building the finest double action revolvers in the history of our nation.
The modern S&W double action means an inferior feel and a trigger that hits a brick wall and must be “burst” through to break.
If you cannot feel that or it does not matter then you’re good to go and the revolver might be a fantastic buy for you. I’m not that guy.
There is no single bit of my view that is political.
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01-20-2022, 07:12 PM
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There’s another way that I look at this, maybe it’s helpful. My favorite era of S&W revolvers is roughly 1985 through 1995. These were my formative years in shooting and buying and they just click with me.
If you ask a guy who loves S&W revolvers from the 1950’s what he thinks of a 1975-made S&W revolver, he may very well turn up his nose in a way quite similar to how I feel about the ILS-equipped revolvers.
S&W has always had one goal above all, and I don’t hold it against them. Profit and sales, and they have always tried to balance cost cutting against the quality of the product. Sometimes they do better than others.
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01-20-2022, 07:26 PM
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Its aesthetics to me. I don’t care about the lock, but having it in there gives the frame an unsightly humped look that I hate.
Oddly enough I also have a 646 and it has a fantastic trigger pull.
Resale may also be affected. Lock guns seem to sit longer than no locks.
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01-20-2022, 07:30 PM
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OP, this question's been asked a lot in a variety ways but it all amounts to the same thing: which era is better?
Cue endless debate unto dumpster fire. Entertaining, to be sure.
Suggest a search if this rabbit hole really interests you.
If we must do it again here, let's at least define what you mean by superior as it relates to your specific shooting needs in a 586. Then there can be a little context to direct the food fight--er, discussion.
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01-20-2022, 07:41 PM
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Wow what great answers that all fit within parameters.
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01-20-2022, 07:44 PM
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I also prefer the older ones.
And if the older ones are bringing more money on the Auction sites,
Apparently other folks also feel that way.
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01-20-2022, 07:53 PM
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I have never owned a S&W with a lock. The lock can be removed and the hole plugged, but they also changed the contour of the frame when they added the lock. The frame contour is something that I can't overlook. I find it downright ugly.
I do believe the older guns show a level of workmanship that will never be seen again. This explains why they sell for more money.
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01-20-2022, 08:03 PM
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I have two 586's with the lock and i like them much better then i did the three previous one I owned with out the lock. i like the bigger frame the locked version gives ,looks more balanced now.
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01-20-2022, 08:13 PM
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All I know is that I would never trade my 686-2 4" for a new 686.
Jim
Last edited by jimbo728; 01-23-2022 at 09:05 PM.
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01-20-2022, 08:15 PM
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I believe the -4 was the last one to use all steel parts. The -5 has metal injection molding (MIM) parts.
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01-20-2022, 08:33 PM
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Sevens, this is not meant to incite violence!
I am a self professed or admitted, depending on how you look at it, trigger snob.
I have a 1967 model 28 Highway Patrolman and a 2017 686 PC 4". Outside of double and single actions both being heavier on the 686 I would consider both equally smooth.
Also, I own 9 handguns from different manufacturers from Smith to Sig to a Cz built for me by CZ Customs. All the finest those companies offer. I bring this up because THE FINEST firearm I have ever owned was a model 627 the first year that the 8 shot had a PC version. I no longer have it, but, if I remember correctly it had the ILS. I have spent 2 and 3 times what I paid for that on handguns and STILL haven't equaled it. I would trade any 2 or 3 that I have now to have it back. It was the two tone model and I believe the first one that they slab sided the barrel. I did not realize then how few were made or I wouldn't have parted with it.
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01-20-2022, 08:33 PM
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While I cannot prove it with scientific data, it is my belief that the new ECM machined barrels do not shoot lead bullets as well as they do jacketed. The older guns shoot lead bullets better. Indeed, I have a very limited experience and the difference is small, but pretty consistent with my guns.
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01-20-2022, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
Its aesthetics to me. I don’t care about the lock, but having it in there gives the frame an unsightly humped look that I hate.
Oddly enough I also have a 646 and it has a fantastic trigger pull.
Resale may also be affected. Lock guns seem to sit longer than no locks.
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I've mentioned this before, a couple years ago I did a trade with a friend and part of it was a newish 586. It had attractive blue and wood grips, but the lock bothered me so I took it to the next gun show, where none of the dealers were interested in it. One finally took it off my hands but I took a serious bath on that one. And later on I saw a video by a guy whose IL 686
locked up on him at the range due to the lock. He had two of them, both of which he got rid of after that
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01-20-2022, 08:43 PM
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I've had far more problems with the internally mounted firing pin than with the lock.
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01-20-2022, 08:45 PM
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The new frame contour is because of the frame mounted firing pin, not the lock. The frame has to be thicker in the firing pin area than for a hammer nose frame.
I have a lot of both kinds and like them all. Each one has some things that are in the + column, and some that are in the - column. They both have a lot more plusses than minuses. I have been shooting S&W revolvers in competition from 1979 until now. I've had good ones from every era, and some with problems from every era. From an engineering standpoint, the new ones (to me) are the best ones. I don't care about the storage lock one way or the other, because it doesn't cause any problems, and the guns work fine. For a competition gun, they are the premium revolver platform to build on. I now have an S&W hammer kit that rivals the trigger pull of a Korth or Manhurin on a much less expensive gun.
Last edited by Protocall_Design; 01-20-2022 at 08:49 PM.
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01-20-2022, 08:45 PM
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Hapworth, when I think of superior I am thinking about trigger, accuracy, and which one lock up will stay tight longest firing .357 loads.
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01-20-2022, 08:57 PM
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Because of the CNC machining, the fit if the parts is almost drop in. Because of the minimal fitting required of the newer models, the current assemblers aren't skilled in fitting as the old timers were. Since burr's etc can be a part of even the best CNC products, the feel of the actions is often different. It can take a couple thousand rounds to completely break in a new revolver, and many never get that many rounds.
I have a 617-6 that is finally getting broken in, and will shoot along side any of my 5 screw K22's or the Mod marked ones. It just takes time.
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01-20-2022, 09:00 PM
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IMO the earlier 586's are better than the -5 and later. Also IMO the best of them is the -3. I'm considering overall fit and finish, ability to shoot both jacketed and lead well, and so forth.
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01-20-2022, 09:01 PM
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How about the 2 piece barrels.
No one has mentioned them.
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01-20-2022, 09:02 PM
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The newest S&W I own is a 442-1 no lock, it's my EDC. I will never own a Smith wheel gun with a lock. IT's not politics, it the aforementioned reasons above.
I own multiple 686/586 both 4 and 6 inch from no dash to -3. To me they are more aesticially pleasing than the newer revolvers. The finish and the wood grips appeal to me. And the actions are top notch out of the box.
I guess it's personal preference. Some people like vanilla, others like chocolate.
But if I wanted a 586, I'd spend the money on a clean pre-lock pre-transfer bar model vs. a new production.
JMHO YMMV
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01-20-2022, 09:13 PM
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None of them have a transfer bar. That's a Ruger thing.
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01-20-2022, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protocall_Design
None of them have a transfer bar. That's a Ruger thing.
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What is it then, since there is no firing pin on the hammer? What is the difference between the internal firing pin and a transfer bar?
I always thought that they were the same thing.
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01-20-2022, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StakeOut
How about the 2 piece barrels.
No one has mentioned them.
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I think the current 586s remain one piece.
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01-20-2022, 09:37 PM
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Sometimes new manufacture does get it right. My newest purchase is a Sig P226 Black Legion RX. For those unaware black Legions area recent special run because LE hasn't been buying the standard gray. Apparently they made more than LE purchased and they are selling the leftovers to the public. I had one on my unicorn list with my lgs. They ended up with one and called. I didn't even try to haggle. Purchased it that day. It came with Sig's Romeo1 Pro red dot installed. The red dot was dead on and the trigger is the first production trigger I have bought that doesn't need help. I bring this up only because it is new production and might be the equal to my custom CZ which is the finest semi-auto I have owned.
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01-20-2022, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quikdraw67
What is it then, since there is no firing pin on the hammer? What is the difference between the internal firing pin and a transfer bar?
I always thought that they were the same thing.
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S&Ws have a hammer block, a different mechanical approach to the same end.
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01-20-2022, 09:52 PM
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Are there multiple votes for the -3 being the best of the bunch?
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01-20-2022, 09:59 PM
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All of you who “will never own a revolver with the lock” are missing out on some of the best revolvers S&W has ever made.
Kevin
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01-20-2022, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeD
Hapworth, when I think of superior I am thinking about trigger, accuracy, and which one lock up will stay tight longest firing .357 loads.
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By these practical criteria, a -8 I think will serve you best. Trigger's a wash: new or old, they all start heavy-ish and smooth some with time and usage, and both vintages are amenable to tuning. Accuracy and durability -- I think the tolerances and consistency of CNC, and the superiority of modern metallurgy, win out.
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01-20-2022, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeD
Are there multiple votes for the -3 being the best of the bunch?
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-4 is by consensus the top pick (drilled and tapped frame, updated extractor), with the -3 next (new yoke retention system). All dash generations, in aggregate, are fine revolvers.
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01-20-2022, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protocall_Design
The new frame contour is because of the frame mounted firing pin, not the lock. The frame has to be thicker in the firing pin area than for a hammer nose frame.
I have a lot of both kinds and like them all. Each one has some things that are in the + column, and some that are in the - column. They both have a lot more plusses than minuses. I have been shooting S&W revolvers in competition from 1979 until now. I've had good ones from every era, and some with problems from every era. From an engineering standpoint, the new ones (to me) are the best ones. I don't care about the storage lock one way or the other, because it doesn't cause any problems, and the guns work fine. For a competition gun, they are the premium revolver platform to build on. I now have an S&W hammer kit that rivals the trigger pull of a Korth or Manhurin on a much less expensive gun.
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My 646 has a frame mounted firing pin and no lock. Looks normal.
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01-20-2022, 10:19 PM
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I only own 3 blued S&W revolvers, all with no lock, but, one made in '50, one in '73, and one in '88. The one made in '73 (M15-3) has the nicest blueing of the 3. I have a .44 mag in stainless with a lock and it is the 2nd most accurate. The K22 is extremely accurate. Now, I've only been able to shoot them from 25 yards. I have no .44 with no lock so I can't compare it to anything in S&W. I have a separate issue with the .44 but it doesn't affect the shooting...yet.That Model 15-3 has some deep blueing, though, that the others don't.
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01-20-2022, 10:22 PM
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I didn’t own an S&W until 15? years ago ,they were both new with the lock and they shot beautifully (586,629) I started hanging around here looking at pix of guns from my youth and that was that lol. The modern ones are long gone and have been replaced with guns from the 50s-the early 70s ;-)
Last edited by arjay; 01-20-2022 at 10:24 PM.
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01-20-2022, 10:39 PM
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I'm not a Ford guy but I'd rather have an original, like new 1965 Mustang than a 2022. Joe
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01-20-2022, 11:28 PM
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Thank you all for your responses. I understand the love of originals, but, being a mechanic enables me to to see that a 2022 Corvette Stingray is far better mechanically than a '67 many would still have the '67. However, I do not believe this always applies to firearms so it is good to have other's opinions to hear.
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01-20-2022, 11:31 PM
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Honestly, if you are buying a collectible revolver, you will buy an old one. IF you are buying a gun to shoot and enjoy, there isn't a darn thing wrong with a new S&W revolver, lock be damned. Don't they still offer a lifetime warranty? An if you are buying a 586, you are not likely slipping it in your waistband for CC. It will probably outlive your grandkids, and will likely be collectible one day as well.
the lock WAS a political football. WEe have one and I have never given it a second thought, when I bought it, or since.
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01-20-2022, 11:49 PM
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I, like many here prefer the older revolvers with the 586 being a particular favorite. I own a number of newer ones however and have no complaint with them at all.
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01-20-2022, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawHat
All of you who “will never own a revolver with the lock” are missing out on some of the best revolvers S&W has ever made.
Kevin
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Well I never put it that way, and certainly never said that. My 460XVR has the lock and they didn’t make any without it, so there it is.
But your angle is good news for you — less folks competing for what you like best.
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01-22-2022, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protocall_Design
The new frame contour is because of the frame mounted firing pin, not the lock. The frame has to be thicker in the firing pin area than for a hammer nose frame.
I have a lot of both kinds and like them all. Each one has some things that are in the + column, and some that are in the - column. They both have a lot more plusses than minuses. I have been shooting S&W revolvers in competition from 1979 until now. I've had good ones from every era, and some with problems from every era. From an engineering standpoint, the new ones (to me) are the best ones. I don't care about the storage lock one way or the other, because it doesn't cause any problems, and the guns work fine. For a competition gun, they are the premium revolver platform to build on. I now have an S&W hammer kit that rivals the trigger pull of a Korth or Manhurin on a much less expensive gun.
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I'm calling BS on the frame contour changing because of the frame mounted firing pin. My 696-1 has the frame mounted firing pin but the contour of the frame is the exact same as the 696 no dash with the hammer mounted firing pin.
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01-22-2022, 01:31 PM
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I do have one with the Lock.
Didn’t buy it, traded for it.
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01-22-2022, 01:59 PM
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I had a new model 48 with the lock. Horrible trigger. I got the lock delete kit that is advertised on this forum and installed it. Trigger is like a good S&W should be now. Sold the gun anyway.
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01-22-2022, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357larry
I'm calling BS on the frame contour changing because of the frame mounted firing pin. My 696-1 has the frame mounted firing pin but the contour of the frame is the exact same as the 696 no dash with the hammer mounted firing pin.
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I see what you're talking about. The frame did change because of the firing pin, but it looks like the curve next to the hammer is different to accommodate the flag of the lock.
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01-22-2022, 03:18 PM
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I like the look of the non magnum frame mo’ betta.
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01-23-2022, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeD
My question for today is whether a 586-1 thru 4 are superior firearms to the -8? Unless you feel the lock creates mechanical issues please leave it a non-issue.
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By putting the limit onto this, are you sure you want personal opinions or just someone to agree with your opinion?
Steve
Last edited by S.B.; 01-23-2022 at 06:21 PM.
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01-23-2022, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B.
By putting the limit onto this, are you sure you want personal opinions or just someone to agree with your opinion?
Steve
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OP seems to have asked in earnest. I'd venture that he limited the discussion to non-lock related factors so as to avoid breaking forum rules and starting the otherwise inevitable dumpster fire.
The various eras have enough relevant differences to produce worthwhile discussion without having to include the you-know-what...
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