Within the last two or three years, I've seen two of these for auction on gunbroker. One cylinder for .45 ACP, another for .45 Colt. Both cylinders are of the .45 ACP/AR length. That means you'd have to have .45 Colt ammo that had a fairly short OAL, right? Was this type of convertible with 2 cylinders ever offered as a variation by S&W? From reading in the 3rd Edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, it says that the .45 Colt Anniversary Edition of 1977 was issued with the short cylinder. Also the 25-4 .45 Colt Deluxe Anniversary Edition had the short cylinder. In 1978, the 25-5 version was offered with the long cylinder. So, I guess you could have sent in your 25-2 and had the factory fit a short .45 Long Colt cylinder to your rig. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Having dual cylinders either requires Colt loads kept to ACP OAL in an ACP cylinder or using a Colt cylinder converted to ACP and the barrel cut at the back end to accommodate the longer cylinder.

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No life story has happy end.

My 625-3 3" was done by C&S. They cut a 45 Colt CYlinder to fit into the 45 ACP frame "window" and the 45 Colt cylinder is the same length as the ACP cylinder. Most all factory loads fit into the shorter cylinder just fine, the only ones that do not fit are the 300+ gr loads from the botique loaders that are slightly over length. Up to 260 gr loads fit just fine. Of course just after getting this somewhat expensive work done, I found the same gun in 45 Colt and bought it.

Could you have a 45 colt length cylinder fitted for 45 ACP? Specifically, could you use a model 28 or 29 cylinder and have it bored/chambered and fit for moonclips?

Yes, however the frame lug would be too short, meaning that when the cylinder was open, there would be a lot of fore and aft play against the frame lug.

I saw pictures of a 1917 that had a .45 Colt cylinder added. The outer radius of the cylinder was relieved at the rear for the thicker frame lug that is standard on a 1917. This gun was featured in a Gun Digest many years ago and was also the cover gun.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Originally posted by Muley Gil:

"I saw pictures of a 1917 that had a .45 Colt cylinder added. The outer radius of the cylinder was relieved at the rear for the thicker frame lug that is standard on a 1917. This gun was featured in a Gun Digest many years ago and was also the cover gun."

1981 35th Edition of Gun Digest, excellent article written by, and photos taken by, C.E. Harris. He used to write quite a bit for the N.R.A.'s American Rifleman, but I haven't noticed anything from him lately.

I have that edition of gun digest! It's in great condition too. I've read that article a few times.

Check page 192 bottom right, third little brown spot up.

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Hoot Gibson

Believe it or not, you can have one gun with one cylinder shoot both 45 ACP/AR and 45 Colt. Start with a Model 25, 25-1, -2, -3, -6, -8, -10 or 625-2, -3, -4, -6, -8, in 45 ACP/AR chambering. Have the chamber shoulders reamed to 45 Colt case length and the gun will shoot both. To convert from 45 Colt to 45 ACP/AR involves much more machining as others have described above.

To prove this assertion to yourself before having the cylinder chambers reamed, just shorten six 45 colt cases (or 45 Schofield cases) to ACP length, load them to 45 ACP specs and shoot them. You'll see that it works. It you don't get consistent primer ignition in one of the newer guns that have the shorter firing pin, switch to the older long pin. Obviously, you'll have a longer bullet "jump" from case to chamber mouth with ACP/AR rounds. But it's not a lot different from shooting 44 Specials or 38 Specials in Magnum guns. I've never been able to detect any difference in accuracy.

As AKAOV1MAN said above, you won't be able to shoot the extra long 45 Colt rounds but you couldn't do it with two cylinders anyway unless you started with two of the longer 45 Colt cylinders and had the barrel throat shortened.

However, with a little more work, you could shoot the longest 45 Colt rounds and 45 ACP/AR with one cylinder in one gun by starting with one of the Models listed above and discard the original ACP/AR cylinder. Install the longer length 45 Colt cylinder by machining the barrel throat shorter. Then machine the rear face of the new cylinder to match the rear face of the original ACP cylinder to give the clearance for AR rounds and ACP rounds with 1/2 moon clips, as well as eliminating the need for alteration of the cylinder stop on the frame.

Jim
S&WCA #819

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have a 1917 that I believe was converted by the factory to a .45 colt target. I base that on a * on the butt next to s/n and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip.







It has a post-war micrometer rear sight, what I believe to be the Brazilian 1917 type front sight, and post war Magna grips. The cylinder measures 1.570" and is numbered to the gun but, based on its length and reduced headspace, believe the factory replaced the cylinder. Wish I had the original .45 ACP cylinder.

I would surely enjoy reading that 35th Edition of Gun Digest article that several members referred to. Any chance I can find a copy?

Still not very good taking good pictures but would be willing to post more if there is interest.

Russ (aka linde from the Missouri Ozarks)

I just talked to Clark Custom Guns and they told me that they can convert a .45 Colt (25 or 625) to shoot .45 Colt, .45 ACP, and 460 Rowland from the same cylinder. The ACP and Rowland requires moon clips, the Colt does not. Price is about $100.

I didn't ask about converting an original ACP to Colt.

Clark Custom

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Hoot Gibson

Thank you Hoot,
That's an amazing price. Contrary to what I said, by starting with a 45 Colt chambered gun/cylinder, they avoid the cost of a new cylinder. The machining they have to do obviously being less costly than I figured. Did they make the stipulation that the gun/cylinder they start with be a model with the longer 45 Colt cylinder Smith offers in some models? I would presume so. And apparently there's no extra cost to convert a Model 25 blue gun which would require rebluing the cylinder.

Jim
S&WCA # 819

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I've been following this thread with interest, and then dismay.

It appears that the wheel is being reinvented, but the end results are the same. Repeated attempts to use one cylinder for firing two cartridges will give poor results.

A conventional rechambering of a .45 ACP cylinder to hold .45 Colt is simply not a good idea. Grossly excessive headspace results from firing .45 Colt in a cylinder designed for the 0.090" rim + moonclip or .45 AR. Ignition will be erratic, and even if a longer firing pin is installed, the resulting case setback will give spotty accuracy.

Likewise, cutting a .45 Colt cylinder to fit moonclips + .45 ACP is a poor idea because of the almost 1/2" jump from .45 ACP into the .45 Colt chamber throat. Accuracy will be mediocre, at best. Nothing even approaching what accuracy is expected from a proper .45 ACP revolver.

A couple of months ago I cringed at the inquiry from a Swedish post that wanted to convert his .45 Colt commemorative to fire .45 ACP with moonclips. Apparently, pistol ownership is rigidly controlled in Sweden, and acquiring another caliber is a bureaucratic nightmire.

Hondo44,

Is this conversion something you've done or your thoughts on the subject?

john traveler,

Is the un-workablility of this conversion something you've done or your thoughts on the subject?


Cat

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Think for yourself.

Hi Jim. They did not, but I specified that the project use an original .45 Colt S&W. All of the .45 Colt models I own (or am likely to want to convert) have the longer cylinder. It doesn't make much sense, to me, to convert a shorter cylinder, because of the limitations in over-all cartridge length. I'm hoping to build a gun that will shoot both .45 ACP and .45 Colt, but I don't want to restrict myself to .45 Long Colt Lite.
I didn't ask about the re-blue, as my conversion would be on a 625.


Hi john traveler. I've read everything I can find on the Colt to ACP conversion idea over the past year. I've heard from both sides. People that have done it with good results, and those with bad. There doesn't seem to be any consensus. It seems to me, from what I've been able to determine from folks that have actually had the conversion done, that it depends on who does the conversion. That's only my personal opinion, because I haven't found enough empirical evidence to come to a solid conclusion as to a reason for the differences. There are a lot of variables, and not a lot of data.

The good news is, nobody that has had the conversion done (that I can find) has indicated that their .45 Colt accuracy got any worse.

I remember the Sweden thread. If I remember right, there wasn't a consensus (by those that actually had the conversion done) there either.

When (if) I ever get to doing this, I will certainly wrote up a report. Probably won't be real soon, as I've got other gun stuff with higher priorities right now (while we still can).

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Hoot Gibson

I've been involved in a couple conversions of M25 .45 Colt to .45 ACP using the original cylinder cut for moonclips, and I have examined and had opportunity to test fire before and after conversions of a few others. NONE of the converted guns came even close to what the original caliber/cartridge accuracy was. Usually, the converted .45 ACP groups were at least twice, and usually larger, than the original .45 Colt groups. This was using various match-quality competition handloads, different bullet weights and shapes, and several factory loads of both .45 Colt and .45 ACP. That is why I called them mediocre. This should hardly be news. Any time a given caliber revolver is rechambered to accomodate a much shorter cartridge, the accuracy can be expected to fall off. This includes .38 Spl/.357 Magnum guns converted to 9mm or .38 Super, etc. What is gained in the utility of multiple caliber catridges is lost in accuracy potential of the weapon. I mean, some shooters may be perfectly happy with 4"-5" groups at 7 yards, but I am not one of them! Not when the original gun and cartridge gave 1 1/2"-2" groups at 25 yards before conversion! What say you?

To John and Cat,

Thank you for your excellent thoughts and questions but I don't think we're re-inventing the wheel; just re-visiting it for the benefit of other shooters. And I don't mind that at all.

First my experience has been from NRA 3 gun Bullseye matches. Yes, I'm an old-timer. Converted guns have been the pre and post war 1917 variety. To be sure, the guns I shot in matches were not combination or converted guns; I used a .38 for the centerfire (2nd gun) not a 357 shooting 38s. For 45 I used a Gold Cup or 45 ACP chambered Revolver for maximum accuracy. For that purpose if I used a converted gun ACP/45 Colt, I would have a two cylinder gun of course.

Second, not all my guns are target guns or for use in matches where I need maximum accuracy. Multi-cartridge conversions can still be fun. Wringing out the maximum performance (not necessarily the best possible accuracy of a cartridge) of a particular cartridge in a multi-cartridge cylinder has everything to do with tailored loads for that specific gun whether it be for long "bullet jump" or whatever. In self defense guns like a fixed sight 1917 or 1950 Military (pre Model 22) 45, the versatility of using both ACP and 45 Colt rounds can be a higher priority without the need for making claims of match-like accuracy. For you, John, it is not. That's fine, no one is trying to change your mind!

Third and last, gun owners commonly accept less than match-like accuracy in many guns; a .22 LR/.22 mag. combination gun compromises bore dimensions to shoot both, where a 22LR only gun will shoot a little better. Shooting 38s or 44s in their magnum counterparts are other examples of accepting versatility over pinpoint accuracy. These are all personal choices we make based on many things, not the least of which is funds available for our hobby. John, you've made yours perfectly clear, it's just not everyone's.

Therefore I do not dispute your valid points. Everyone has their own priorities and preferences. However, I'm quite certain Clark's Custom Guns and other gunsmiths for example would NOT perform any conversion that wasn't completely safe and/or didn't have acceptable performance, albeit not match-like accuracy. I feel for the guy in Sweden and personally am glad a conversion is possible for his sake if for no other reason. Due to this thread, he'll be able to weigh the pros and cons and make an informed decision. Who are we to say what HE should do in his situation? We can only say what any of us would do.

Jim
S&WCA # 819

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hear, hear, Jim/Hondo!

Let's agree then, that each to his own, and that there are valid reasons for the cartridge conversions mentioned. It's all too easy for any of us to be locked into one's life experiences and think that it would apply to everyone. Not so! And thank you for reminding me.

John

Hey John,

I do agree and this thread would be wanting without your individual insight which makes yours as valuable a contribution as any others' contributions. Thanks for jumping in. I'm on the West Coast too (People's Republik of Kalifornia). Would not mind meeting up on the range sometime, for sure.

Jim

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks guys, for all your very thoughtful and very helpful insights to what I thought was a pretty simple question.
When it comes to firearms, shame on the person who thinks they know it all.

I didn't understand the answer, though, from Hoot concerning whether or not S&W ever offered two cylinders as a factory offering on their Model 25's. Hoot, what book or publication were you referring to? If it was that Gun Digest, I don't have it. Did you mean yes, they offered it, or no, they didn't? Thanks.

Tex,
You said you were reading the 3rd Edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson. Hoot indicated the answer was on page 192 of that book. There was a production run as you described with two cylinders of the same length, but they are rarely found and it doesn't say what 25 dash model it was or what the cylinder lengths were. Bottom of right column on that page; 3rd gold dot up from the bottom of the page.
Likely, since the factory offered the combo for sale, at that time you could have sent your gun back for fitting of a 2nd cyl. When I go to the S&W website parts list here: http://www.smith-wesson.com/wc...PartsList_Retail.pdf
I don't see any Mod 25 cylinders offered now but Mod 625 cylinders in both calibers are offered but no length is listed.

As you said, short 45 Colt cylinders came on models 25-3 & 25-4; both limited editions. The long cylinder was introduced on the 25-5 and used ever since then on models 25-7, -9, -11, -13. Several blue guns in ACP are still offered. The SS 625 Mtn Gun is offered in 45 Colt. If your interested and wonder what S&W can do, I'd call them. They seem to still produce the cylinders to start with.

Jim

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Jim
S&WCA #819

As i am the Swede in this discusion i thougt i'd chip in.
The cylinder on my 25-3 revolver is one mm longer than the standard .45acp cylinder.
That means that there is no longer bullet jump
in the 25-3 cylinder than in the 25-2 when cut for moonclips. (that is one mm thick)
I have only shot it once as there is to much snow at my range right now.
I could not see any differenc in grouping shooting 255grains bullits in my acp brass.
All shooting was done at 25 meters.
I do not plan on shooting any factory .45acp only handloads.

One of the reasons for doing the modifying was
as mentioned earlyer the Swedish gun laws.
The other reason was that when i tryed to sell it here in Sweden.
I got one offer at $200 by a friend (some friend)
So to his dissmay i did the work right under his nose.
I do not regret my decision, BUT you might not get the same result as i did.

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Jamie wants big boom

The dual cylinders were made for the early Model 25-3 guns that had a shorter cylinder than the later Model 25-5s and only a few guns were made up this way. Any time S&W makes a 'special run' of a particular gun they always make a few extra parts just to make sure they have enough for the project. That was the source of these dual cylinder guns. Their accuracy is lacking from what I've been told by the couple of folks I know that have or have had them.

I spent a number of years looking for a Ruger .45 Blackhawk Convertible that would produce decent accuracy with both cartridges. The .45ACP was always lacking. I did finally have an extra cylinder in .45ACP which I re-chambered to .45 Winchester Magnum and got acceptable accuracy. But due to the cost of the Win Mag this wasn't very cost effective and I finally sold the whole package. My conclusion was that you can't have your Cake and Eat it Too.

Has anyone answered this question, yet?
Steve

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NRA Life Member

john & Hondo,

Thanks for your answers, exactly what I was asking for.

I think one factor that can play into the divergence of opinions is "accurate" and what it means from on person to another. It can sure vary, can't it? And what accuracy is needed for a particular task also contributes.

Interesting.


Cat

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Think for yourself.

My New Model Blackhawk shoots good with the .45 ACP cylinder, 1 1/2"-2" at 25 yards. I only ran a few .45 Colts through it when I first bought it and frankly, I can't remember the group size, but I believe it was about the same as with the ACP rounds.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

S.B. yes, Hondo and Hoot both answered my question. They correctly referred me (again) to my referance of the 3rd Edition of the Standard Catalog. I tried to find it but just read right over it. I looked again tonight, very carefully for the answer, in that book, to my question.....and it IS there, just where they said it was. So, guys, my mistake, I'm getting old, careless, and blind in my old age. And, above all else, thanks for answering my question and telling me where the answer is.

Texas Roots, it's easy to miss. I only remembered it because I read everything I could after I got my first N frame (4" nickel 25-5) and got interested (obsessed?) in the series.

I'd like to thank everybody that contributed to this discussion. It's certainly added a couple of data points to my decision-making on the conversion.

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Hoot Gibson

I almost forgot; there's even another way to shoot ACP in a 45 colt revolver without any gunsmithing! Buy 45 Schofield cartridges or brass if you reload, (both are readily available with the explosion in popularity of cowboy action shooting from Staline and Black Hills ). Shoot them as they come or shorten the empty cases about an 1/8" to acp length and load them to ACP specs with ACP bullets. 45 Auto rim cases won't work because the rim is too thick.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I have seen one of these "convertibles", and the plastic recess in the presentation box was molded to fit the additional cylinder. It is, as I recall, a 6 1/2" gun. I have been negotiating to buy it for some time.

Tim

Tim,
Good luck and I'll be pulling for you. I never regretted a gun I paid too much for (I mean bought too early!), only those I didn't buy!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo, that's a great idea about shortening the .45 Schofield brass. I've just bought an excellent condition 3-screw .45 Ruger Blackhawk w/ACP cylinder. I'll just try your suggestion for the heck of it to widen the horizons of this old gun.

Amazing, I just did as well; a 3 screw in 6 1/2" with two cylinders. Of course ejection is not an issue for a single action but it will be fun to see if the shortened Schofield cases shoot better in the ACP cylinder with no bullet jump to the cylinder throats, than in the Colt cylinder.
What barrel length did you get?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo44,

Your Ruger .45 should be a 7 1/2" revolver.

The .45 ACP cylinder may not chamber the .45 Schofield. My NM ACP cylinder wouldn't chamber the .45 Auto Rim cartridge, so I had a friend turn down the rear of the cylinder.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Hondo, mine is a 7 1/2". From what the collector experts on the Ruger Forum have told me, there were only the 7 1/2" and the 4 5/8" lengths offered by the factory. Yours must be a special order.....if so, it must be worth a heck of a premium. I haven't had a chance to shoot mine yet as I only just got it today.

Hondo, mine is the 7 1/2" length. Your 6 1/2" length might be a special order as the collectors on the Ruger Forum have told me that only the 7 1/2" and the 4 5/8" bbl. lengths were offered by the factory. So, yours could be worth a heck of a premium over the standard bbl. lengths.

Sorry, I guess I thought I was talking about Smith & Wessons!! You're both right of course, it was 7 1/2". I say was, because now it's 4 5/8". It had corrosion and pitting on the end of the barrel while the rest of the gun is very decent and I'm a short barrel fan anyway. My son, Pontiaker, the custom knifemaker made it look like a factory short barrel. Used the original front sight and attached it with a Ruger screw used on the Super Single Six revolvers so soldering didn't ruin the blue finish on the remainder of the barrel.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I don't mind the idea of cutting down Brass if the "original" isn't available but it doesn't make much sense when you can simply order the "Real Stuff"!

Remington:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eprod...id=801379&t=22164010

Starline:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eprod...id=612331&t=22164010

Muley Gil,
Was the rim thickness of the 45AR too thick?

I keep forgetting about the Cowboy 45 Special they make now; brass or loaded ammo. http://www.fototime.com/F475F126B9AB51A/standard.jpg

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Jim
S&WCA #819

"Was the rim thickness of the 45AR too thick?"

Hondo,

When you chamber an ACP round in the cylinder, you can barely see the extractor groove. Auto Rim brass has a too thick rim to chamber.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Muley,
By golly your right! the rim is too fat and the diameter is too wide. I just tried it and a cut down Schofield case won't fit either! There is just no space for the rim diameter or rim thickness to the breachface. The ratchet on the ACP cylinder is .610". It's the same on the 45 Colt cylinder but the cylinders are recessed for the caseheads and when the recess is reamed, it puts a small notch in the side of the ratchet which effectively reduces the ratchet diameter at each chamber to .580" . If that same shallow recess was cut in the ACP cylinder chambers, shortened Colt or Schofield cases would then work and presumably Cowboy 45 Special cases would also.

The case rim recess for Colt cases wouldn't affect the shooting of rimless ACP ammo in the ACP cylinder at all because the actual rim of the ACP does not need support and it would still set flush with the chamber mouth.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here's mine-- a Model 25-2--the .45 Colt cylinder is recessed! RR/WO sights complete the package.




Tim

This thread has come and gone but I found using two different ballistic characteristic cartridges in the same gun was best addressed by having two front sights, such as Ruger Redhawk or some silhouette S&W models, if I remember correctly. I finally just sat the .45 ACP cylinder aside and shot 45 ACP/AR in S&W 25 or 625s and .45 Colt in their respective guns. A .45 ACP/AR hand load comes pretty close to all the performance a standard 45 Colt should be providing from a S&W revolver, 45 ACP +p level loads, or somewhere below the starting load range for Ruger only .45 Colt loads but above the SAA traditional 45 Colt loads. Any pig or deer shot with a 255 grain cast bullet at 900 fps or 200 grain JHP at 1050 fps from a 45 ACP/AR or a 45 Colt will have exactly the same reaction.