I've kept reading this thread with interest. My Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard wants to know too. Thanks for the considerable effort that this experiment has entailed. Regards, Jerry

I am interested and have been keeping up with the test...as an owner of a couple Model 12s, I think you should keep the test going for another couple of thousand rounds. The model 12 can take it.

grizz

Hello. I appreciate your efforts and hope that you will continue this procedure.

Best.

I too have been reading every post regarding your test and look forward to more.

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William H. Smith

I am very interested in this thread because i bought a model 12-1 from this guy...Hehehe

Sir, I'm starting to get the feeling that maybe I shouldn't have walked away from that nice little 2-inch 12-3 I saw a while back .... [sigh]

Semper Fi,

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Well, hell. Should have kept my 12-2 after all. Oh, well...

Osprey - please keep up the good work. I've been following this thread with interest. My wife's main gun is 2" 12-2, and she mainly shoots wadcutters out of it due to my concerns for its durability.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Heck, I'm looking for another 12 because of
this thread. See it through.

Osprey, thanks for your dedication and for all the money you've spent to conduct this test.

So has your M-12 become rickety yet?


Okie John

Brother sprey,
I don't see any S&W or SuperVel ammo in your list:

All rounds are +P unless otherwise noted:

Winchester 110 gr JHP – 35
Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP – 36
Georgia Arms 158 gr LSWCHP – 101
Winchester 125 gr JHP – 200
Remington/UMC 125 gr JHP – 200
Speer/Lawman 158 gr TMJ – 300
------------------------------------
Total = 872

Any interest in trying some? I've got some Super Vel 110 grain JHP, they are not marked PlusP, but I can't remember seeing their ammo so marked. Also have some S&W 158 Gr Lead Semi Wadcutter, some early Federal NyClad 125 Grain Semi-Wadcutter PlusP and some Eldorado Starfire 125 grn Jacketed HP PlusP, not sure about that last stuff.
Let me know via email if you'd like to try some of this stuff and I can send it out.
Just trying to help (blow up a M12, that is...)

I will echo those of others...thanks and keep up the test!

Osprey, are you referring to your gun or to your shooting wing?

I posted this on a different forum but thought it may be of interest here too. Back in 1974 Speer #9 manual published velocities of then current commercial ammunition including .38 special. Here is a link to the data.



Even brief comparison with modern factory ballistics suggests that cartridge we now call .38 spl +P would be referred to as .38 spl –P in 60's and early 70's… Is that by any chance the timeframe when your gun was built?

Interestingly, Speer #9 velocity for Remington 158 gr. LRN is nearly identical to .38 spl load published in Speer #5 (1961). That load contained 10.5 gr. 2400 under 160 gr. SWC slug… So, Osprey, to help offset the cost of ammo for your next test, I would be glad to provide 1000 rounds of regular .38 special… loaded to 1960's specs

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Another appreciative M12 owner.

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NRA Patron
MSSA Life Member

I looked at the chart but I do not see what you are referring to. For example, it shows .38 Special Win 158 gr out of a 6" barrel at 761 fps, Federal same load same barrel 782 fps, Rem 125 JSP out of 6" at 1160 fps. Nothing so hot there.

Recent rounds I have tested for modern ammo included CCI 158 grain RNL at 792 fps from a 4" M15, Win 110 grain .38 Special JHP at 1163 fps from a M66 2.5", Win 125 grain +P at 989 fps from a 2" M60.

I know what you are saying, but am not so sure the chart and actual testing with current ammo supports it. But, I could be wrong.

Thanks! Looks like CorBon 110 JHP+P blows away that SuperVel.

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Centennial Every Day

Yes, we are all aware of that, but reloading manuals do not address the comparison of older factory ammo with newer factory ammo. My acutal testing of old and newer ammo does not show the differences some claim.

stiab,

Thank you for sharing your data and sorry that I could not respond to you post sooner. I too may be wrong but I think some of the loads from Speer #9 table exceed modern factory ballistics.

Here are some examples:

Old .38 special Speer 125 gr. JHP clocked 1148 fps from 4" revolver. Fastest modern factory round I could find is .38 spl +P Remington 125 gr. Golden Sabre - 975 fps from 4" vented barrel.

Old 158 gr. Remington RNL - 1025 fps from 6" bbl. Modern +P 158 gr. RNL Remington Express - 890 fps from 4" vented barrel.

Again, I could be wrong here and would be interested to know if other data for old and modern factory rounds is available.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

CorBon 125 JHP+P runs 1125 or so out of a 4" barrel and 975 out of a 642.

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Centennial Every Day

Mike, I am curious on this subject and as you can see from the pic below have accumulated a significant amout of older .38/357 ammo to test. I have a similar amount of more modern ammo to compare it against.

When the weather improves some I intend to spend a whole day at the outdoor range with my cheap-o chrongraph comparing old -vs- new from a 4" Model 28.

I don't have a predetermined agenda with this comparison, but the limited testing I have done so far does not indicate the older is a lot faster than the newer. I also have .45acp and 38 Super for comparison. I'll publish the results when more round have been fired!

That's one nice collection, stiab, in fact very nice! Can't wait to see results of your comparison.

Have to admit I do have a preconcieved notion on the subject, but hey, the chrono doesn't and it will tell the truth, whole thuth...

Mike

P.S. Might be good to include Corbon in your testing (thanks Photoman!). Also heard that Buffalo Bore is pretty hot.

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Yeah, me too. Here's some of the modern .38/357 ammo that will be used for comparison.

Staib,

Your comparison would make for a very useful and interesting topic here on the forum. I'd even be inclined to link it from this topic.

... sprey

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What do I know?

Unfortuneatly my library for those years was disposed of but I do not remember ever reading a statement like or similar to that.-Dick

Gents,

Is this the statement you're looking for?

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Hey Osprey, you've still got 128 rounds to go.

Did you stop the test?

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NRA Patron
MSSA Life Member

No...probably on March 14 I'll be able to finish the test.

... sprey

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What do I know?

Osprey: I have been following your test of 1000 rounds of .38 Special +P ammunition in your S&W Model 12-2. Thank you for risking your revolver and spending so much time and money for your amusement and our education. I eagerly await the test's finish and your final report. I hope that your revolver shows no damage or dimensional changes after the test ends.

I am enjoying the info on this test . . THANKS!

On the question of older ammo vs new in terms of speed, I'm sure some of the forum members could tell you the date, but there was a change from using "pressure BBLs" to real guns for vel figures somewhere near the 80's. Posted vel of many factory rounds went down without any actual change in the factory load. As I recal, loading manuals made the same change close to the same time.

Doc

FYI- March '76 Rifleman, in response to the NRA's query, the factory replied-

"Smith and Wesson .38 Special firearms identifiable by a model number (for example, "Model 36")which is stamped in the cylinder yoke cut, are designed to fire all brands of commercially manufactured .38 Special cartridges, including those which carry the +P designation. However,the service life of any aluminum alloy frame revolver, even one manufactured to Smith and Wesson's quality standards, may be adversely affected by frequent use of +P cartridges. Accordingly, Smith and Wesson does not recommend +P cartridges be used in such guns."

Also please note, the +P designation was adopted in early '74.

Good luck with the test!

"

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Good shooting.

Just referencing lefty lar's broke model 12 (see Post #154 below). Unfortunate, but I think it relavent to this thread. If +P's aren't cracking the frames on M12s, what is? (Is it as easy as saying it's an overtightened barrel???).

.... sprey

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What do I know?

I have seen on the forum that lots of folks say that, but I always wondered how many were speaking from personal experience and how many just repeating what they had read.

14 MAR 08




Well, it’s done. I’ve successfully fired 1,022 rounds of +P .38 special through my M12-2 without blowing it, or me, up. In fact, it has been my experience that shooting +P through an M12 is more detrimental to the shooter then the M12. The test took a little over six months and required nine shooting sessions. Nine different types of +P ammo were used. Here’s a summary of cumulative round count by ammo type.

All rounds are +P unless otherwise noted:

Winchester 110 gr JHP – 35
Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP – 36
Georgia Arms 158 gr LSWCHP – 101
Winchester 125 gr JHP – 200
Remington/UMC 125 gr JHP – 200
Speer/Lawman 158 gr TMJ – 300
Speer LE 135 gr GDHP – 50
CCI Blazer 125 gr TMJ – 50
Federal Classic 125 gr JHP – 50
--------------------------------------------------
Total = 1022

For more details, check out The Log on page 1, second entry.

Also, I was asked after the 72nd round to “mike” the frame window and measure the B/C gap. Here’s the measurements from 1 SEP 07:

Horizontal (TOP): 1.818”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.818” (one side measured .001-.002” less)
Vertical (F): 1.477”
Vertical (B): 1.477” (one side measured .001” less)
B/C gap: 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).

And here are the measurements 950 +P rounds later.

Horizontal (TOP): 1.817”
Horizontal (BOT): 1.817”
Vertical (F): 1.479”
Vertical (B): 1.478”
B/C gap: Same as before, 0.007” (I could get the .008” feeler in if I pressed the cylinder back).

While this test can be considered a “success,” I want you all to know that in the future, my model 12s will NOT be firing +P ammo. While I’m confident the M12s can handle it, the only reason I would want to use +P ammo is in a self defense gun. My current armory has plenty of factory-blessed +P rated revolvers that I would rather carry then any of my cherished M12s.

There you go….enjoy!!!!

sprey

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What do I know?

Fascinating - thank you, sprey for your contribution to scientific knowledge of the actual abilities and limitations of the Model 12. You're in the running for 2008 Internet Citizen of the Year.

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Now go make God proud...

Thanks for taking the time and expending the effort & ammo to do this and document it for us

A concise and thorough account of this experience written by a a real world shooter & gun user is really great to see. I've followed this test since the beginning and felt that S&W warnings aside, the gun would do just fine.

Glad to see that the gun (and the shooter) survived intact!

Bill

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Bill

Yes, thanks Osprey for doing the test and keeping us posted!!

sprey,

Thanks so much for conducting & documenting this experiment.

I picked up a M12 about a month ago. While I don't plan on shooting +P ammo, I was concerned about whether or not the previous owner had ever shot +P in it. The frame looks fine and shows no signs of cracks.

Thanks again! I know it must have been a "painful" experience.

Linda
SWCA #1965

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Allow me to add a few more details to the "painful aspects" of the test. I didn't realize it until looking back at the picture just now that I left the sports tape (black) I put on the trigger to cover up the serrated face. You can still see it in the picture. I could never get the tape to cover the complete trigger face so I would end up with skin damage on the top side of my trigger finger and occasional on the bottom end (the tape would start to curl from the bottom up). Again, if I ever meet the engineer that invented the serrated trigger, I'd give him a piece of my mind to go with the several pieces of my shooting hand I've already given them.

Several sessions into the test, I got into a habit of putting 1 or 2 bandaids on the web of my hand before beginning a shooting session. The bandaids would eventually get pounded off and I would need to patch that up with some more sports tape.

The blister in the palm of my hand was a new event that only occurred at the last session.

Finally, after the last session, I started shooting my Glock 23, but after the pounding I got with M12, I was shooting the Glock very poorly. (I imagine I would have shot anything much worse then normal after the M12 session.) I secured my Glock practice after only 48 rounds, most of which didn't make a hole in anything I had hanging on the target caddy.

... sprey

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What do I know?

Osprey,

Thanks.
You've proved once again that skill and cunning will overcome ignorance and superstition every time.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

First of all guys I want to profess strongly that I am no expert or even remotely close to claiming an expertise in this matter. But, I would like to tell you about my own experience with the model 12.

My son who is in Afghanistan bought a model 12 4" on gun broker that was listed as new. It was made in 1971 or1972. When I picked it up at my local FFl. Two guys who know quite a bit about weapons who run the place. Combined experience of over 70 years, both stated that it looked like it had never been shot. Maybe S&W test fire round.

My daughter-in-law & I then proceeded to take it out & shoot it. I had Winchester 38 special 130 grain target/range ammo. After my daughter-in-law fired about 50 rounds she said the sight was crooked. I said, it couldn't be. Sure enough it was turned a little to the left. So I took it to our local gunsmith & he said the frame cracked. Showed me a very slight crack. Said it couldn't be repaired.

I sent the gun to S&W, since I've learned on this forum that they might help. It was about 10 days & I get a call from S&W & they say the gun is way past warranty. The lady said the gun was not abused & that's the only reason they were going to help us. She said, it was possibly torqued a little too much in the assembly of the gun. I think they were also nicer to my plight because my son is serving in the Army. Anyway they are going to take care of us. I can't say how, because I said I wouldn't. Seems, some guys would try & send in all their old junks looking for something in return. This was a special case. Being the gun was like new.

Sorry, for the long letter. I think, it depends on each individual gun & how it will react to +P ammo. Like one guy said on another thread. When buying a older model 12 you better have a magnifying lens & really look for hairline crack on the frame. They can really be small. Please don't attack me for just saying what has been said by me. It's true & it just happened this month. Just wanted to tell our story so not everyone with a model 12 starts shooting +P ammo in them. If they haven't done it already. We only shot 38 special & it happened to us.

Lefty Lar

Great work. Thanks.
I might have missed it - but was there much flame cutting on the topstrap?

lefty lar,

Thank you for sharing your experience. It seems to be generally felt by folks around here, and probably at S&W as well, that cracking of the frame has to do with initial dimensions or torque applied in seating the barrel. This is also seen, less frequently, I believe, with aluminum J-frames. I can't say for sure, but it would appear that if a Model 12 can survive childbirth and adolescence with standard-pressure rounds, it can do so with +P rounds.

Many thanks to Osprey for risking his treasured Model 12 to be able to make a clear factual statement about it and +P ammo.

520

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Formerly Model520Fan

Osprey, I just want to add my thanks for making this valuable test. I have read each post with great interest and it is an eye-opener for sure.

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SWCA # 2294

IIRC, no, but I'll check the gun again later tonight after I get home from dinner, work, ensemble rehearsal...etc.

Osprey

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What do I know?

Excellent post Mr. Osprey.
I was told by S&W not to shoot+P in my 12-2.
I'm not to do that but your test helped me to trust in my revolver again.

I checked it again now that I'm home. There is a "line" above the B/C gap that looks like it had some pitting. It did not extend across the entire width of the topstrap. What little that's there is so faint that I really couldn't tell it was there until I dragged the point of a pin across the line.

Hardly noticeable....

...and keep in mind, that in addition to the +P rounds, I also ran a 160 rounds of standard pressure fodder through the gun AND I have no idea who shot what through it prior to my purchasing it in September of 2003. After the 1182 rounds I put through it, plus the "unknown," I don't feel that the light "flame cut" is anything to worry about.

....Osprey

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What do I know?

I wanted to reply to this with two comments from other members. The first relates directly to the quote, the second, not so much, but I think it still important.

Back on page two of this topic, budrichard shared the following to describe what I believe to be the risk of shooting +P through an M12.

"In terms of Hazards Analysis, this type would be termed: Low Probability, High Consequence, sort of like flying on an airplane."

I think this hits the mark perfectly. Yes, this test kind of proves the "low probability" portion of the hazard. This is especially true of the "average" user who is probably going to shoot 50-100 rounds of standard pressure .38 for every 12-18 rounds of +P. If the M12 owner shoots their gun once a month and averages 15 +P rounds per session (12 one session, 18 the next, then 12, 18...that averages out to 15), it will take them 5 1/2 years to shoot 1,000 +P rounds. This is what I considered to be "normal use."

HOWEVER...

...should "we" be wrong about this, or your particular M12 ends up being an exception, the consequences are pretty high...YOU end up with a gun thats only good as paper weight or a bookend. If your M12 frame cracks, breaks, melts, whatever...your M12 probably won't get repaired. To me, that's too high a consequence!!!!

I was happy to risk one of my M12s for the sake of science and pragmatic commentary, but now that this test is behind me, I will NOT be shooting +Ps through my M12.

The other comment I wanted to make was from something that Saxon Pig (SP) wrote. To paraphrase, SP refers to modern day +P ammo as "Plus Zero" and he has backed these back-handed comments with quite a bit of good data showing that before +P became commercially available +P ammo, it was considerably more powerful. The stuff I shot was all off the shelf commercially available stuff that obviously didn't have enough power to blow up a gun that was prohibited from +P use; not even after 1,000 rounds of the stuff.

SP, you were right all along....

Osprey

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What do I know?

Amen, brother!

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Now go make God proud...

I have always maintained that the fears regarding factory +P were based on the notion that this is a warm load. It is not. Factory +P is actually fairly mild, IMO.

I would have absolutely ZERO concern about shooting +P through ANY Colt or S&W made after 1930 (I use that date due to my personal concerns over the state of metal tempering back then but I freely admit that I may be overly cautious).

To those who want to dismiss testing as irrelevant, I disagree. I have formal, graduate-level training and experience in scientific research and testing is indeed useful. Of course testing can't guarantee similar results but a random sample subjected to testing can give us an idea of what to expect. To disregard testing means cars are unsafe since only a very small percentage undergo safety crash tests. Nonsense. Seeing how 10 particular items do in testing can give us info. Even one item can help.

In this test we have learned that a random M12 revolver digested 1,000+ rounds of +P without effect. Expectations are that other similar revolvers would do the same.

But this is old hat. I mentioned Elmer Keith writing in 1955 of firing 38/44 loads through an alloy Chief's Special. If the 158/1140 load through an alloy J frame didn't cause any harm how could the 125/925 in a K frame possibly do damage?

On the guns with cracked frames, I hear of just as many cracked frames from using standard ammo as I do from using +P. I am convinced that these were cases of defective guns. Alloy is harder to work with than steel and you will have a higher percentage of defective guns when they are made of aluminum.

I know we are all weary of the never ending discussion and that some will never believe +P is not harmful no matter what evidence is offered. I was convinced long ago that +P is a relatively mild load and it's irrational hype driving the fear and misconceptions.

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No life story has happy end.

Thanks for all the work Osprey. I don't have a Model 12 (yet ) but it's good info to know.