What does "RE" in a circle on the grip frame and other questions

[oldblue]

I may have screwed myself but you'll be the judge!

First, here's the gun:
S&W 27-2. Sn N81xxx
Three screw, 3.5"bbl; Magna stocks (one numbered to the gun).

Bought online. Gun condition overall okay, I'd guess blueing is 95%.

The online posting said that the frame is numbered to the box. However, the serial number on the box was "erased" and a new serial number written in it's place. Different color ink even. I can see some remnants of the previous serial number on the box.

The screw in the plate under the grips does not look like the correct screw as it does not have the un-threaded portion - just the short threaded portion and the top of the screw and the top of the screw is flat - almost like a scope ring screw or something out of a box of various blued screews from Brownells.

I paid $1600 for the gun.

There is a 3-day inspection period on the gun and I paid with a credit card. I'm open to discussing with the seller who has a high rating on Gunbroker but would like to know the value of the gun and box.

Questions:
1. By about how much does the apparently fraudulently-marked box reduce the value of the gun-box package?

2. the number on the inside of the crane is 54621 - is this a part number or should it match the serial number? I have some other Smith's but not this old so I don't know.

3. The ejector rod is slightly eccentric but does not seem to rub much upon ejecting at all.

My goal for the gun is to have one that is not NIB as I want to be able to shoot it once a year and enjoy it, but still have one that is good enough to hold or gain value.

What is your wisdom on this matter? Should I simply return it, or negotiate for a more fair price?

Thanks in advance.

[series guy]

1. It might as well not have a box but are you going to display it or shoot it?
2. The number on the yoke is an assembly number for fitting parts. Has no meaning outside the factory.
3. I wouldn't be concerned. They can be straightened if it is bothering you.
You paid a big price for a -2 but the short barrels are always more.

[series guy]

BTW the grips will only be numbered on the right panel and the screw under the grips is correct with no dog on the end and a flat head.

[S&WIowegan]

S&W didn't make a 3 1/2" barreled Model 29-2 in the serial number range of your gun. They rarely if ever sold Model 29s with magna stocks. When the seller erases a serial number on a box and writes in the gun's number that's fraud.

This deal is a mess as described by you. Don't argue or negotiate, send the gun back and stop payment on your credit card. Don't dicker with a crook. Oh yes, you over-payed by as much as $1K.

[sigp220.45]

Is it actually 3 1/2"? That would be a non-standard size for a 29-2. Could it be a 4"? You measure from the end of the barrel to the front of the cylinder.

Did you mean a 27-2? Then the barrel length and the magnas would make sense.

You paid top dollar, actually quite a bit more unless you are in California or some other out of the way place. The box should match, and you shouldn't have any questions about replaced screws or wobbly ejector rods.

I'd send it back.

(Welcome to the forum!)

[keith44spl]

I personally have never saw a 29-2 with a 3 1/2" barrel.........


It's not something that I would consider as a real deal.






.

[browningcollector]

Did you mis-type the model number? I am not into 44 magnums, but I don’t believe they made theses in 3 1/2 inch barrels

[oldblue]

YES - that you! I typed 29 out of habit (I have one of those too). It is a 27-2!

[yfdcap]

The 27-2 with the 3 1/2 barrel brings a premium around here. Never really see them. On the very rare occasion they do pop up they are pretty close to that price. That's just the gun. I have a closet full of boxes and really could care less about them. I know some folks really want them. I want the gun and to shoot it. I would say if you like the gun keep it and negotiate on the box if you want. Maybe he will refund a little for it not being correct.

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by yfdcap

The 27-2 with the 3 1/2 barrel brings a premium around here. Never really see them. On the very rare occasion they do pop up they are pretty close to that price. That's just the gun. I have a closet full of boxes and really could care less about them. I know some folks really want them. I want the gun and to shoot it. I would say if you like the gun keep it and negotiate on the box if you want. Maybe he will refund a little for it not being correct.

Okay, fair enough... except I see stuff like this - no box, but better condition, 27 (no dash)
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/771025735 and
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/774560489

[muddocktor]

Pics would help (yes, we love gun porn here too ). As for the box, it sounds like the seller had bought another box and erased the original serial number and printed in the one for your gun. That ain't too kosher in my book. As to pricing, $1600 for a an earlier 5 digit N serial like yours is a bit high, but not grossly so. Yours should have been made around the late 60's to 1971 or so according to the SCSW. As far as the flat head screw, that is what should be there under the grips. It wasn't until way later that S&W used dome head screws in that spot. I don't know when they stopped using the flat head screw there, but they still were using the flat head screw under the grip area on my 27-5 of 1991 vintage and also my 629-3 Classic of 1991-1992 vintage.

BTW, just to give you another data point on pricing for 3 1/2" barrel 27-2 guns, I bought a nickel gun a few months ago with original box (real original box) and it also came with a presentation case (didn't originally come with the gun and seller stated so in the auction) and was in at least the same condition as yours and I gave $1800 for the package (GB buy). Mine is a little later gun than yours, with a serial # of N162XXX, which puts a manufacture date of somewhere around 1974.

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by muddocktor

Pics would help (yes, we love gun porn here too ). As for the box, it sounds like the seller had bought another box and erased the original serial number and printed in the one for your gun. That ain't too kosher in my book. As to pricing, $1600 for a an earlier 5 digit N serial like yours is a bit high, but not grossly so. Yours should have been made around the late 60's to 1971 or so according to the SCSW. As far as the flat head screw, that is what should be there under the grips. It wasn't until way later that S&W used dome head screws in that spot. I don't know when they stopped using the flat head screw there, but they still were using the flat head screw under the grip area on my 27-5 of 1991 vintage and also my 629-3 Classic of 1991-1992 vintage.

BTW, just to give you another data point on pricing for 3 1/2" barrel 27-2 guns, I bought a nickel gun a few months ago with original box (real original box) and it also came with a presentation case (didn't originally come with the gun and seller stated so in the auction) and was in at least the same condition as yours and I gave $1800 for the package (GB buy). Mine is a little later gun than yours, with a serial # of N162XXX, which puts a manufacture date of somewhere around 1974.

This is the easiest way... https://www.gunbroker.com/item/772841089
I will post a photo of the end of the box below.

[Bakebfr480]

Originally Posted by S&WIowegan

S&W didn't make a 3 1/2" barreled Model 29-2 in the serial number range of your gun. They rarely if ever sold Model 29s with magna stocks. When the seller erases a serial number on a box and writes in the gun's number that's fraud.

This deal is a mess as described by you. Don't argue or negotiate, send the gun back and stop payment on your credit card. Don't dicker with a crook. Oh yes, you over-payed by as much as $1K.

Who said anything about a 29-2? I though it was a 27-2!

[BobG78]

Originally Posted by Bakebfr480

Who said anything about a 29-2? I though it was a 27-2!

Check the edit notes at the bottom of post #1

[oldblue]

Box end photo - what do you think?

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by S&WIowegan

S&W didn't make a 3 1/2" barreled Model 29-2 in the serial number range of your gun. They rarely if ever sold Model 29s with magna stocks. When the seller erases a serial number on a box and writes in the gun's number that's fraud.

This deal is a mess as described by you. Don't argue or negotiate, send the gun back and stop payment on your credit card. Don't dicker with a crook. Oh yes, you over-payed by as much as $1K.

You are correct - I MIStyped 29 out of habit as I have a 29; it is a 27-2. Thank you for pointing it out and I apologize for the confusion.

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

Did you mean a 27-2? Then the barrel length and the magnas would make sense.

(Welcome to the forum!)

Yes, thank you - it is 27-2. Sorry for the confusion.

[oldblue]

I looked in my Catalog of the S&W book and dcan't find a referenc to this - there is an "RE" inside a circle stamped in the grip frame - know the meaning of that?

[CelticSire]

Just my opinion, but I am reminded of something my daddy used to say. "Son, if a man will lie to you, he will steal from you." The seller stated it was the original box, serial numbered to the gun. No, it's not. It's serial numbered to the gun NOW, after he forged it. It's NOT the original box. I'd send it back AFTER I stopped payment. If the seller is willing to lie about something as trivial as an original box in order to make a sale, I wouldn't trust anything he said.

[S&W Fan]

Could it be an "RB"? I bought a 27-2 with that mark and it signified a blue refinish at the factory. I lettered the gun (shipped October of 1970) and it was sent back just a few months (January 1971) after to be reblued, no idea why. The guy I got it from didn't know either.

Here's what that stamp looks like:

[kleiss1]

Have you ever owned a S&W revolver before?

[pd1964]

Originally Posted by S&W Fan

Could it be an "RB"? I bought a 27-2 with that mark and it signified a blue refinish at the factory. I lettered the gun and it was sent back just a few months after it left to be reblued, no idea why. The guy I got it from didn't know either.

Here's what that stamp looked like:

The R-N or R-B in the rectangle are when they were factory re blued or re nickeled. The RE in a circle I have on the frame of my 29-2. Not sure what that means either.

[S&W Fan]

Originally Posted by kleiss1

Have you ever owned a S&W revolver before?

Who-me or the op?

[oldblue]

Here is the RE in a circle - lower left.

[series guy]

Most likely an assembler's stamp.

[JSR III]

There is no "apparently" here, the box IS NOT original to the gun. If you look closely under the "N" there at one time was an "S" which would make sense. The box actually dates earlier than the gun which was most likely made in the late 60's or early 70's. Since the box is pre Bangor Punta (who purchased S&W from the family in 1965) the box is pre 1965 which also makes sense for an "S" serial number.

Your Gun Broker non boxed examples show that the guns alone have sold in the $1700 range so your $1600 is not out of line.

A boxed gun should typically add a couple of hundred to the package but many folks nowadays don't seem to care about the old cardboard and don't appreciate the "holy grail" of gun collecting which is finding an original complete package as it shipped from the factory. Today you can buy fake end labels and photocopied parts lists and many so called collectors are happy to put together packages. It is just not the same as finding the complete package in original condition but many collectors today just are not purists and don't seem to care. There are even reproduced screwdrivers or SAT's that one can add to the package.

I would advise the seller that he sold the gun as coming with an original box (which it is) but just not original to this gun. See if he is willing to knock off $100 since the package was misrepresented and perhaps you can get the gun for $1,500. If he says no then you have to decide if the gun alone is worth it.

[shouldazagged]

The box would make me wonder if anything else isn't kosher, but I have a nasty, suspicious mind and a resistance to being hosed.

I've never been able to spend anywhere near that much for a gun, so bear that in mind; but I think I'm in the stop-payment-and-send-it-back camp.

[pd1964]

I would agree with asking for $100 back if you’re happy with the gun. There’s a few of those boxes on EBay so doesn’t add much value if not original to the gun IMO.

[arjay]

Who's the seller?

[kleiss1]

Originally Posted by S&W Fan

Who-me or the op?

The OP. Sorry

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by JSR III

There is no "apparently" here, the box IS NOT original to the gun. If you look closely under the "N" there at one time was an "S" which would make sense. The box actually dates earlier than the gun which was most likely made in the late 60's or early 70's. Since the box is pre Bangor Punta (who purchased S&W from the family in 1965) the box is pre 1965 which also makes sense for an "S" serial number.

Your Gun Broker non boxed examples show that the guns alone have sold in the $1700 range so your $1600 is not out of line.

A boxed gun should typically add a couple of hundred to the package but many folks nowadays don't seem to care about the old cardboard and don't appreciate the "holy grail" of gun collecting which is finding an original complete package as it shipped from the factory. Today you can buy fake end labels and photocopied parts lists and many so called collectors are happy to put together packages. It is just not the same as finding the complete package in original condition but many collectors today just are not purists and don't seem to care. There are even reproduced screwdrivers or SAT's that one can add to the package.

I would advise the seller that he sold the gun as coming with an original box (which it is) but just not original to this gun. See if he is willing to knock off $100 since the package was misrepresented and perhaps you can get the gun for $1,500. If he says no then you have to decide if the gun alone is worth it.

Well that is a very well thought-out set of statements and it sounds informed by lots of experience. I think I'll just ask for a full refund and see how he reacts. Hopefully reasonably - perhaps he has a helper in the shop that is less experienced. We'll see.
As you suggest, while settling for a partial refund may make economic sense, it nevertheless may not give us the feeling that we seek when we open the safe and see that truly original set lying before us, taking us back to a time of American craftsmanship, know-how and pursuit of excellence. Guns like make good company 'round the campfire for the 1930's cast iron cookware and a Case XX 10-dot pocket knife. I'll have to give your well-considered comment some thought as I await a reply from the dealer.

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by arjay

Who's the seller?

Available by clicking on the GB link in an earlier post.

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by kleiss1

Have you ever owned a S&W revolver before?

Several but I'm having a hard time imagining how that's relevant or helpful. Enlighten me.

[Skwirl]

I'm in the camp of returning it.

My problem is the fraudulent labeling of the box.
Then the fraudulent add, listing the box as original to this gun.
Then the misrepresentation of the gun itself. If you found the ejector rod being eccentric, the seller also knew of it.

Yeah, I'd definitely be returning that gun, and try to inform gunbroker also.

[moralem]

If you can return it, do it and then keep on looking and putting more money aside until you find a better example.

[cmansguns]

Welcome to the Forum....hang around and we will help you spend your money...but we do need pictures, they are obligatory when questioning value of anything S & W.

My 27-2 with 3-1/2" bbl is the real deal and you won't get it from me for $1,600. Mine is 1976, s/n N 377xxx. No box, no docs, no presentation case, tools, etc.

Actually no story whatsoever on mine which is fine with me as I really don't want to hear the usual stuff about how a friend of a friend got this gun given to him after Elvis used it to demolish a TV one night, but sorry...lost the photo of the King doing the deed.

There is a seller on Fleabay (starts with a Blo...) who sells boxes and blank labels for Colts, S & W and just about anything you want. He's still in business so somebody sucks into this stuff all day long. Also as posted there are other sellers putting out repro's of manuals, parts lists, etc. but these items are 100% worthless in my opinion as a collector (well junior advancing accumulator in training).

Don't know what the circle RE stands for, maybe Reengineered and applied by the seller

Like others I'd say for sure discuss at length with the seller.

I guess decide how nice a shooter it is and negotiate accordingly. If you feel the gun alone is worth whatever (and they ARE sweet shooters, a major tad heavy for Concealed Carry)...then dicker with the dude, but trash the box...it ain't worth squat, even if someone could read the old serial number and had a matching gun...it has still been FAKED, no honest "mistake" in my opinion.

[murphydog]

It's a nice looking example from the auction listing photos but maybe 95 - 97%, with muzzle wear and various spots of finish loss. The sideplate screw under the right stock panel will often have a flat head to clear the wood but a photo would help determine if is original.

Unless you have developed an emotional attachment to it (not that this has happened to any of us here ), I would be inclined to return it as well and look for a nicer example at lower cost. Good luck in your decision.

[Nightowl]

You might also want to consider the shipping cost to send back, in my neck of the woods, around $75 or so. That's what it cost me to send a Python back to Colt several years ago!

If you can negotiate the box fakery, and save the shipping cost, you are not in bad shape.

But, if you cannot enjoy the gun as is, then it will probably be better to sent it back, if he will take it back. One thing, though, you never know how good a gun will shoot until you shoot it!

[jack the toad]

Originally Posted by murphydog

Unless you have developed an emotional attachment to it (not that this has happened to any of us here ), I would be inclined to return it as well and look for a nicer example at lower cost. Good luck in your decision.

+1
For comparison (which may or may not be wise), my latest purchase (last month) was for a similar model. A 3.5", 5-digit N prefix, blued, no target options, ca. 1972. Came with correctly labeled box, tools and all docs except manual. Shows to be very low round count with minimal finish wear, limited to muzzle and cylinder that appears more from box storage than holster carry wear. I reluctantly paid $1300 but obviously hadn't been shot much at all. Not to hijack but will try to post a pic later. Good luck with your decision.
ETA:
If too much hassle to return, definitely negotiate for lower price.

[Peak53]

SW only numbered the right grip. So, that part is correct.

I'll play the other side here regarding the box. We don't know that the seller was the one who altered the number on the box. He might have bought it that way. A high volume seller might possibly not have noticed. In my opinion you got a nice gun at a GB price and a worthless old blue box. Ask for the price of the box as a refund and go shooting.

[RGVshooter]

In all fairness before judging it's possible the seller could have bought the gun like that with the box that came with it and had nothing to do with the serial # being erased. Just sayin'....

[Muss Muggins]

Does anyone know the answer to the OP's original question about the RE in a circle?

[JSR III]

I would not say that the box is worthless and if the label can be gently removed you have a pre Bangor Punta S&W blue box. That box on fleabay would probably fetch $100 or more.

It is also possible that the ink serial number could be removed assuming that the label is original and worth saving.

OP, is there any indication of a serial number written on the bottom of the box? S&W typically wrote the serial number in grease pencil across the end of the underside of the box.

[JSR III]

I asked Roy Jinks what the RE symbol means and he stated that it is one of the many rework symbols used by the factory to indicate rework done to a gun before shipment. It is possible that the gun did not function as designed and went back through the factory to correct some issue. Unfortunately, he also stated that the service department also could have used the symbol to indicate that the gun was returned for an issue and went through the same process.

[oldblue]

Wow - super impressive thoughts and wisdom for everyone. I also appreciate the differing views.

While I'm obviously not a S&W expert (someone asked, but I think I've been clear about that) - I'm not new to firearms. I've hunted dangerous game in Africa and Alaska and have had some very expensive DG hunting rifles and scopes, etc. In the past, was an FFL, a shooting industry manufacturer's rep with the whole SHOT Show experience, etc, etc.

In my day job, I deal daily with $500M contracts and contract attorneys so I'll try to put that hat on and have a conversation with the seller. Thanks for the suggestion on that item.

I'm always careful not to accuse anyone of something I can't prove, and in cases like this, I usually don't ask questions unless I already know the answer. Rather, I ask stupid questions to see if they tell me the truth, then I decide how to react. This is how I learn if I can trust someone - honest mistake vs. ill will. Then I decide what to do. If honest, I try hard to be a courteous and patient gentleman to a fault (my preferred approach). If deceptive, usually drop the hammer in several directions all at once (GB, BBB, Yelp, CC company, the Ripoff Report website, local small claims court with summons to appear in my county court, etc., etc.) with no warning. If I warn people they say I'm threatening, so I just do it. Guess I learned that in the Marine Corps: candy bars and fruit for kids; lightening speed and ruthless aggression towards the enemy.

Anyway, no attachment at the moment to the gun - I can take it or leave it.
It's a great point about shooting it for accuracy but I'd want written permission in advance. The gun smells like old oil, not gun smoke, and the seller must know that. Won't provide him an excuse.

Wow - rambled on way too long. I'll keep you all informed.

BTW, I'm on several other types of forums (guns, motorcycles, international travel, hunting, etc.) - all good, but you guys are AWESOME!!!

[Skwirl]

Well, good luck old blue. Your previous post reminds me of the old dutchmen I grew up around. They would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it, just dont lie or try to cheat them.

[oldblue]

Well, as Winston Churchill wrote to his wife Clemmie while traveling in Africa, "Safari so goodie."

I called the seller and described what I saw on the box. He practically fell over himself apologizing and seemed embarrassed. He said "It came in that way and I saw that a couple of numbers looked off but a couple looked okay so I just posted it. I should have taken a paragraph to explain it." Without my saying anything he said, "Tell you what, why don't you go shoot it as much as you want, and if you like it, I'll send you a check for $400. If you don't like it for any reason, let me know, send it back and I'll refund the entire amount." We talked about guns for awhile and he said "I wish more people were reasonable and would just listen and talk things out. It's the way we were raised, but now, people seem so angry. But gun people are usually okay."

So I shot it today after work. When I got home I put it on a scale; weighs 72.3lbs. Pretty sure it's something like that.

The photo has a 5-shot group on the target shot at 7 yards. I'm no precision handgun shooter; this is about as good as I can shoot any handgun. Now a rifle, that's another matter!

For $1200 think I may keep it - what do you think?

[jack the toad]

Looks good. If you like it after shooting it, I'd just keep it for $1200.

[series guy]

I would sure keep it for $1200. You would have a hard time improving on it for that price.

[oldblue]

Originally Posted by jack the toad

Looks good. If you like it after shooting it, I'd just keep it for $1200.

Thank you. It is hard to see but if you click the photo above you'll see the group. I'm not too good of a handgun precision shooter - that's about as good as it gets for me. I tend to shoot left and string vertical.