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Old 05-27-2007, 03:28 PM
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I JUST RECEIVED AUSTIN PD MODEL 20-2 38/44 HEAVY DUTY SERIAL NUMBER S255737 FROM DAVID CARROLL-THANKS DAVID!. IT WAS SHIPPED ON 28 DECEMBER 1964 IN A GROUP OF 50 FOR AUSTIN TEXAS PD. THIS IS MARKED AUSTIN PD 246 ON THE BACKSTRAP. THEY ARE 3 SCREW, 4 INCH NICKEL GUNS. THIS ONE WENT BACK TO THE FACTORY ON DEC 1970 AND DEC 1973. I WELCOME ANY OTHERS WHO HAVE ONE OF THESE TO POST THEIR ALSO!
ENJOY!
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:28 PM
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AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS  
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I JUST RECEIVED AUSTIN PD MODEL 20-2 38/44 HEAVY DUTY SERIAL NUMBER S255737 FROM DAVID CARROLL-THANKS DAVID!. IT WAS SHIPPED ON 28 DECEMBER 1964 IN A GROUP OF 50 FOR AUSTIN TEXAS PD. THIS IS MARKED AUSTIN PD 246 ON THE BACKSTRAP. THEY ARE 3 SCREW, 4 INCH NICKEL GUNS. THIS ONE WENT BACK TO THE FACTORY ON DEC 1970 AND DEC 1973. I WELCOME ANY OTHERS WHO HAVE ONE OF THESE TO POST THEIR ALSO!
ENJOY!
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Old 05-27-2007, 04:27 PM
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Bill,

Wow! That is nice. It was good talking with you earlier, its good to see you have some daylight to take pictures. (Rain stop yet?)

The nickel looks fantastic on those HD's !


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Old 05-27-2007, 04:41 PM
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A jim dandy gun, indeed.
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:03 PM
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Oh, if this beauty could only talk!
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Old 05-27-2007, 05:59 PM
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Wow!! What a fine firearm. That's why I like this forum so much, because you never know what you might see. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Oh, if this beauty could only talk
I don't think it would have a whole lot to say. This gun is so pretty I would bet the owner was a Detective or plainclothes officer that carried a undercover and not this revolver. Or maybe a Chief or other desk bound ranking officer. Sure is one fine looking revolver.
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:41 PM
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That's another beauty, Bill!
Thanks for sharing.
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Old 05-27-2007, 07:41 PM
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YOU SHOULD SO PROUD. I KNOW I WOULD BE!

SIX-FIVE MORE THAN YOU SHOULD NEED
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Old 05-28-2007, 08:25 AM
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Thanks to all-it doesn't appear to have been used very much even though it has been factory refinished. We think that there were only these 50 Mod 20-2 marked guns made, so it is a great find for my HD collection. So, there are more out there to be found!
Bill
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Old 05-28-2007, 10:15 AM
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I had one like that years ago but let it get away. Had it been police marked like yours I would probably still have it. I love a gun with a history, even if I have to make it up in my imagination.

You have a beauty.

Bill
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Old 05-28-2007, 10:52 AM
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Very nice, Bill. I am glad it found its current foster parent. Do you rock it to sleep at night?
Any chance of finding out who it was issued to? Did "Ranger Ray" have a HD when he went up the tower to get the Austin sniper, or did he use something else? Come to think of it, when was the Tower shooting? This gun may have been shipped after that. To quote John Prine: "The days just flow by like a broken-down dam".
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:05 AM
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Lee,
Yes, 'Ranger Ray' Martinez was carrying a .38/44.
I have corresponded with him about 'the tower' and the guns, and even sent him a couple photos of my 'A.P.D. # 19', .38/44 HD
He doesn't remember the duty number of his .38/44, and he left A.P.D. about a year after the Texas Tower incident.
Heck of a nice guy.
Lives in New Braunfels, TX, since retirement from the Texas Rangers.
If you haven't read his book, 'They Call Me Ranger Ray', do so.
I believe you'll like it.
Bill, that's a beautiful (rare) gun.
Glad you have it!
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:31 AM
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DHenry:

There was a Reynel Martinez that was a 101st LRRP/Ranger in VietNam. Not one in the same is it?

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Old 05-28-2007, 11:49 AM
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Giz,
Ramiro Martinez, born 1937, in Kent County, Texas.
He was a L.E.O. throughout the 1960's and 1970's, while 'Nam was going on.
A real straight-arrow of a lawman, too!
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:58 AM
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DH,
Thanks. So, did Ray kill him with a HD?
When was the Tower? 61? 62?
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Old 05-28-2007, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by handejector:
DH,
Thanks. So, did Ray kill him with a HD?
When was the Tower? 61? 62?
Lee, the tower shooting was August 1, 1966.
Texas Tower shooting--Wikipedia

"Police officers Conner and Shoquist remained inside the University to cover the windows on the southeast and northeast sides of the reception area. Meanwhile three other officers, Ramiro Martinez, Houston McCoy, and Jerry Day took hastily deputized citizen Allen Crum up towards the observation deck.

Martinez and McCoy went out on the observation deck, with a .38 revolver and a shotgun respectively, and proceeded to the north-east corner of the deck and spotted Whitman seated on the floor of the north-west corner watching the south-west corner for any signs of police.

Which of the officers actually killed Whitman has been disputed; both claimed responsibility. McCoy fired his shotgun twice, and Martinez fired six rounds from his revolver before taking the shotgun and approaching the limp Whitman and firing again point-blank. They then took the green towel that Whitman had brought with him, and waved it to those below, indicating that the sniper had been killed."
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:40 PM
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Bill,

An exceptionally nice gun! These "Austin Guns" just sing out that they are mid 20th Century Texas Lawman don't they.

Ray Martinez is often at the Dallas Market Hall show and I have let him examine my Austin P.D. #145 (shipped December 10, 1956) and his face just lit up as he handled it. Unfortunately, as others have said, the Department didn't keep records of which revolver was carried by what officer and Ray has no idea which one was his. So until someone finds a previously unrevealed record, all of us who have those guns which shipped before "The Tower" can just hold ours and wonder... Even if our specific gun wasn't the one carried by Ray, it was on duty with some other Austin Officer that day. How close to history is that!
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:42 PM
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Lee and John,
There are many differences in the Wikipedia version and Ray Ramirez' account of the Texas Tower events, starting with the number of officers/personnel approaching the tower, taking the elevator to the 27th floor, and the events inside the tower.
Officer Houston McCoy had the shotgun, the 'deputized' civilian with the rifle covered the door out to the observation platform, and Ramirez had his .38.
Ramirez fired at (and hit) the sniper in his left side; the sniper spun around and Ramirez, in a crouching position, emptied his revolver at the sniper.
Ramirez dropped his empty .38/44 and yelled to McCoy, then behind him, to shotgun the sniper, which he did.
As the sniper was going down, Ramirez grabbed the shotgun from McCoy and fired at the sniper, hitting him (again) before he went down.
That's the way Ranger Ray tells the story.
I'll bring the book to Richmond, and anyone who would like to look it over is most welcome to do so.
Just those few pages take your breath away!
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Old 05-28-2007, 01:55 PM
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DHENRY, I look forward to seeing that book at Richmond.
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:06 PM
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Beautiful weapon! I was really just a kid when it happened and I had never heard of the "deputized civilian". It sounds like he had a rifle; was that given to him by the police?
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:20 PM
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Blackcloud2
During the attack, the Austin PD quickly discovered that their sidearms and shotguns were 'outgunned' by Whitman's aresenal.
Civilians with game rifles came forward and joined in, attempting to stop the carnage.
One of Ramirez' recollections was that of all the bullets flying over his head from the shooters on the ground.
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:40 PM
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Lee and everyone else,
This gun was shipped about 18 months prior to the Tower incident. I know that APD has been asked if they have the records as to who carried the individual firearms and unless something is discovered, no one knows. It would be neat to find that out.
Thanks,
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Old 05-28-2007, 02:43 PM
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I have a long email from John R. Boyd (Lt., APD, Ret.) which give a substantially different account of the Whitman shooting. Lt. Boyd states that there were, in fact, six other Austin officers in the tower stairwell that day (Houston McCoy, Jerry Day, Philip Connor, Harold Moe, George Shepard and Boyd).

It further states, in part, that: "Martinez and civilian Crum forced their way out onto the deck while the other officers were removing two dead citizens and two wounded citizens and before the team was ready. This caused McCoy (the only officer with a shotgun) and Day to follow. The door opening onto the deck was on the South side. Whitman was crouched in the NW corner. Martinez and McCoy went around the SE corner while Day and Crum made their way toward the SW corner. As Martinez and McCoy reached the NE corner, Crum accidentally discharged the lever action .30 cal rifle he was carrying (narrowly missing Day who was in front of him) and jammed the rifle trying to eject the shell. This directed Whitman's attention to the South as Martinez and McCoy came around the NE corner. Martinez fired all six rounds from his .38 cal. service revolver, missing all six times ( the distance is about 50+ ft). Five rounds hit the west wall where Whitman was sitting and the other round apparently went over the wall. As Whitman was turning, rifle in hand, McCoy fired two rounds of 00 buckshot to his head/neck killing him instantly and taking out both eyes at the same time. Martinez threw down his service revolver (we are trained to reload when empty), grabbed the shotgun from McCoy, ran to Whitman and fired a round point blank into his left shoulder (basically shooting a dead man).

It is important to note that at this time it wasn't known if there was more than one sniper at work that day. McCoy drew his service revolver and began looking for more snipers who might have been there. At that time Martinez ran past McCoy and back into the reception area where we were, shouting 'I got him, I got him'.

All of us are eternally grateful that Crum was not the first person to come back into the reception room. A man in civilian clothes carrying a rifle into a room with four police officers who had just heard a volley of shots from the observation deck would have surely been shot to death. When we got onto the observation deck where our portable radio would work again, Moe radioed for the police to stop shooting from below and ask the police dept to notify the media to ask the armed citizens (there must have been hundereds by that time) to cease fire too. Martinez eventually returned to the observation deck, retrieved his service revolver from McCoy and left again. At that time, as far as we (other than McCoy) knew Martinez had shot Whitman; after all he said he did. In his state of mind, he may have really believed that he did. The autopsy would tell quite a different story."


This is just another example of how differently people who participate in or witness high stress events can differ in their perceptions.

Bob
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Old 05-28-2007, 03:29 PM
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Bill,

I just looked at my copy of Ray Martinez's book and on page 76 there is a UPI/Corbis picture of him coming out of the Tower on August 1, 1966. Very clearly, you can see the backstrap of a nickel HD in his holster. If anyone could find a copy of that original photo it might be possible to blow up that back strap enough to see the APD marking.

Bob
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Old 05-28-2007, 03:44 PM
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Bob,
The original is key...That illustration in the book is WAY too grainy to tell anything other than the fact that it is, indeed, a nickel revolver!
These stories remind me of our officers' interviews with accident witnesses: Six people, six versions of the same story.
An interesting point to ponder, while we're at it...
On the face of it, I would put as much (or more) credence in Martinez' version as I would any recaps from superior(s) who garnered their information from multiple interviews after the fact.
And now, on to the Kennedy assassination...
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Old 05-28-2007, 08:06 PM
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Bob,
I have a copy of the original photo and it is as DHenry says, grainy and you can only tell that he has a nickel revolver in his holster. We'll keep on trying to find out what the rack and serial number was.
Thanks again,
Bill
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Old 05-28-2007, 08:23 PM
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Thanks Bill for the opportunity to add some photos to your thread. I'm glad you were finally able to find one for your collection!

Here's a couple of pictures of my 20-2. It was refinished at the factory in 1971 and it had the APD markings on the backstrap removed at some point. The stocks are not original to the gun; they were borrowed from a minty 1966 Highway Patrolman (and he wants them back!).







Here's what may have happened to another 20-2 per Skeeter's article in a 1981 Shooting Times magazine:

Here's my Missouri State Patrol Transitional HD (repaired/refinished by Gene Williams) with the Austin 20-2.
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Old 05-29-2007, 02:59 PM
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Received my 38/44 HD 5" Pre 20 #S89xxx from David Carroll last week No pics yet, sure looks good in its box, home at last. Thanks David!!!

1118AD Crusader
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:22 PM
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1118AD,

Yours would have been in the first shipment to the APD and shipped on June 3, 1952 if I'm not mistaken. Are you sure it's a 5"? What is the backstrap marking?

Bob
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:08 PM
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Bob,
I don't think his is an APD gun, just a nice HD!
Bill
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:49 PM
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AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS  
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Jay,
I just really noticed your Missouri Transitional HD. Nice gun-any interesting history on it?
Bill
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:05 PM
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Very, very nice...Thanks for sharing with us.......
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Jay,
I just really noticed your Missouri Transitional HD. Nice gun-any interesting history on it?
Bill
Bill,

The Transitional shipped to the MSP on May 12, 1948. All serial & assembly numbers match, except the stocks which are serial numbered a little later and likely got switched around at the MSP during one of it's many rebuilds/reblues.
I found it in a pawnshop looking like it needed a friend. Per your recommendation I sent it to Gene Williams for a little Texas sunshine and some spa treatment. He did a bang up job getting her ready for a lot more years of shooting. I've got more money in it than I should have and it still has some unfixable flaws, but it's one of my absolute favorite guns, ever, and that's saying something!

BTW, you do have this one enetered in the SWCA Forum database.

Jay
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  #35  
Old 06-01-2007, 07:11 PM
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Jay,
All 50 of the 20-2's are in the DB.
Thanks,
Bill
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Old 06-22-2007, 06:49 PM
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Are there any other 20-2's out there?
Bill
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:00 AM
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Bill:
I recently found one that appears to be original. I am attaching photos of the left grip frame which do not indicate any factory refinish. Assembly number is same as in crane area. No shroud markings. The serial number of S255888 is duplicated on the cylinder, although it is in an unusual place, on the rear face but down low enough to be covered by the ejector star when it is at rest. The gun has some blemishes like some dark marks under the stocks and a ding or two on the front sight, etc. It is fairly tight and is timed correctly. Someone has taken pretty good care of it for the last several years. I think the serial number is the last one listed for the APD 20-2 in the S&WCA listing but apparently the APD number of 207 was not applied in the order of serial numbers as several have later APD numbers. I think this is a quite cool revolver. It cleaned up nicely.
Ed
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Old 07-04-2007, 02:45 PM
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Ed,
Thanks for posting another beautiful HD! I don't think we will ever know how or in what order the guns were marked. Great that your gun has not been refinished! Thanks for sharing and have a great 4th!
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:05 PM
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Bill:
Is the backstrap lettering of "Austin" on yours like this one, with the Capital A larger than the capital STIN? I had a heck of a time getting a decent picture of the marking due to the reflection on the curvature of the frame.
Ed
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:23 PM
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Great find, Ed. Congratulations! Hope to see it sometime.

Bob
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  #41  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:15 PM
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Ed,
The lettering on mine looks pretty much uniform.
Bill
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Old 07-04-2007, 11:46 PM
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Another 20-2 accounted for, that's great! I've added another picture in my post of the left frame under the grip for anyone who may care about the markings, which are almost exactly like Ed's gun.

Austin P.D. #208 (one number up from Ed's #207) was also accounted for by S&W Forum member Savoy6 back in February of this year (2007).

Here's a link to his thread on his 20-2. It would be great if he were still around to chime in on this thread and maybe add some pics!

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5301039...751000102#5751000102
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  #43  
Old 07-05-2007, 05:04 AM
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Bill, Bob,Jayc & others, very interesting thread. Made me re read a very good account of the UT Tower incident, " A Sniper in the Tower" by Gary M. Lavergne. It does not identify the HD carried by Martinez but does mention the shotgun carried by Houston McCoy. He calls it a Winchester model 1200 with dept. markings, A.P.D. #19, and says it is on display in the lobby of the PD.
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by smith17:
Bill:
I recently found one that appears to be original. I am attaching photos of the left grip frame which do not indicate any factory refinish. Assembly number is same as in crane area. No shroud markings. The serial number of S255888 is duplicated on the cylinder, although it is in an unusual place, on the rear face but down low enough to be covered by the ejector star when it is at rest. The gun has some blemishes like some dark marks under the stocks and a ding or two on the front sight, etc. It is fairly tight and is timed correctly. Someone has taken pretty good care of it for the last several years. I think the serial number is the last one listed for the APD 20-2 in the S&WCA listing but apparently the APD number of 207 was not applied in the order of serial numbers as several have later APD numbers. I think this is a quite cool revolver. It cleaned up nicely.
Ed
Ed,

That is a very nice find. To locate a police gun, especially a 20-2 that is still the original finish is quite an accomplishment. They are only "with the original finish" once, as that one certainly appears to be, and most likely it will stay just as it is for a very long time to come, and never be tampered with. Maybe shot a little, but not hurt at all. It has survived a long time pretty much unscathed.

I'd say you have a pretty rare, valuable and "Holy Grail" type of Heavy Duty.

Congratulations on locating & acquiring it.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:22 PM
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Fantastic thread, thanks for posting this.
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  #46  
Old 07-31-2007, 06:57 PM
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Here's mine, sorry for the pics, nickel as you know can be hard to photo. This is my topic on it... http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...4/m/1161013142





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  #47  
Old 07-31-2007, 08:08 PM
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Sonny, great gun and great pictures. I'm glad you snatched this one up. Great investment!
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  #48  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:51 AM
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Congratulations, Sonny! Excellent catch of a seldom seen gun. You should be very proud...you know that while you own that gun, you're an Honorary Texan!!

Bob
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Old 08-01-2007, 03:29 AM
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I have a Pre-20 38/44:
SN S1510XX
AUSTIN PD 170
You have got to love em!!

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Old 08-01-2007, 05:38 PM
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Sonny,
Looks great! I'm glad you got it. Every one we find fills in another piece of the puzzle.
Thanks again,
Bill
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