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  #1  
Old 11-20-2008, 06:40 AM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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I thought it better to start a new thread here instead of continuing to stretch the forum rules with Q & A about the history of the CST listed in the classified section.
The model 60 CST currently listed has been identified as one of the 660 produced in 1986 for the now defunct Ashland Sports, in Ashland Ohio. The SCS&W leads one to believe these were the first of the model 60's produced as a "target" model with adjustable sights. To confuse that line of thought, I have a model 60 no dash CST in my collection with s/n AFC9XXX that appears to have been manufactured in November of 1984 and it's configuratioon is identical to the Ashland guns. Until I can get it through the current Jinks letter log jam, does anyone have any information regarding CST's earlier than the Ashland run?
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:40 AM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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I thought it better to start a new thread here instead of continuing to stretch the forum rules with Q & A about the history of the CST listed in the classified section.
The model 60 CST currently listed has been identified as one of the 660 produced in 1986 for the now defunct Ashland Sports, in Ashland Ohio. The SCS&W leads one to believe these were the first of the model 60's produced as a "target" model with adjustable sights. To confuse that line of thought, I have a model 60 no dash CST in my collection with s/n AFC9XXX that appears to have been manufactured in November of 1984 and it's configuratioon is identical to the Ashland guns. Until I can get it through the current Jinks letter log jam, does anyone have any information regarding CST's earlier than the Ashland run?
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:37 PM
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The PHOTO, man! The PHOTO!

Were these snubs or three-inch guns, like the later M-60-4, one of the best S&W's ever built?

T-Star
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:55 PM
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I bought one of the Ashland model 60s with adjustable sights and 2 in. barrel. They advertised it as 1 of 5000 in Shotgun News. I had a FFL at that time and if I remember correctly I paid approx. 220.00. I sold it many years ago. This probably adds nothing to this thread but I thought I would throw it in.
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Old 11-20-2008, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
does anyone have any information regarding CST's earlier than the Ashland run?
S&W made CSTs all the way back in 1955, then sporadically after that. Course, these were blued model 36s, but CSTs none the less! I have an early 2" CST and a 3" CST made in 1975.
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Old 11-20-2008, 03:33 PM
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Is it a 60-1 ??
How are you arriving at that date for that serial number?
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Old 11-20-2008, 04:43 PM
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Here is a picture of my 60-1. I think that this is one of the guns in question. The serial # is ALU13XX and the barrel measures 1 7/8".


If memory serves me, there were model 36's made with adjustable sights that became the model 50.
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Old 11-20-2008, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
If memory serves me, there were model 36's made with adjustable sights that became the model 50.
Yep, some became model 50s, some stayed model 36s and 36-1s, while some were of the pre-36 variety. Here are my two, a 2" 36 and a 3" 36-1:

Book says that 568 model 50s were made in 1973, and 213 3" model 36-1s in 1975, along with over 1,000 model 36s (and pre 36s) made between 1955 and 1966.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:12 PM
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Hey fellas
Be Careful boys! The CST was one of the guns that certain people faked a few years ago. ohiobuckeye has found a couple in southern Ohio and I have found a couple in northern Ohio. Here are the serial number ranges for the CSTs.
1955-1957 114 guns produced in 55050-57xxx
1959 198 guns produced in 149811-150133
1966 1006 guns produced in 391811-392778
1973 Mod 50 568 C 930-J-45 = 936-J-19
1975 Mod 36-1 213 guns produced in 2-J-3124 = 2-J-3347
1989 Mod 36-6 615 guns produced in BEAxxxx

As to ohiobuckeye's question, in 1985 Ashland Shooters Supply made an order for the adjustable sighted mod 60. The run was for 666 guns with product code 102305. Most of the guns were made with an AL?xxxx serial number.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Be Careful boys! The CST was one of the guns that certain people faked a few years ago. ohiobuckeye has found a couple in southern Ohio and I have found a couple in northern Ohio. Here are the serial number ranges for the CSTs.
Good point!! I checked that very same serial # listing before I laid out the "green" for my two CSTs!
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:54 PM
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Can anyone tell me when the 60-4s were made? I just recently picked one up.
Thanks.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:19 PM
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I bought my Ashland Shooters Supply Model 60 stainless "Target" in July, 1985, after seeing the same ShotGun News ad and having my dealer order me one. ALU32XX.

So, the 1986 date in SCSW III is in error.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:55 PM
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I am on a trip in North Carolina so am away from my guns.

However, I DO have a Stainless Model 60 target 3" full underlug barrel that I am quite partial to. It is a near perfect "Trail Gun" that I can shoot quite well in spite of the short barrel.

It carries well in a holster (it is so light you hardly know you have it with you). It works quite well on edible small game with .38 Wadcutters. My load is a solid base wadcutter ahead of 3.0 grs of Bullseye with a taper crimp.

This or my 631 .32 H&R Mag work perfectly to "side" a shotgun when bird hunting for those sitting rabbits that I seem to always encounter. The family MUCH appreciates a sinle bullet hole in an eating rabbit (both cotton tails as well as snow shoe rabbits). I have also used them when on occasion I have knocked a grouse down with a broken wing. The dad burn little birds will stay just ahead of you (running on the ground) if you try to chase them until they run into a briar thicket so thick you can't get through it without a bulldozer. However, they WILL let you get close enough that it is relatively easy to clip their heads off with a revolver. I have never felt comfortable shooting them twice with a shotgun (generally end up with tatters...). The revolver solves this quite nicely where allowed (some areas I have hunted do not allow handguns).

FWIW
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:01 AM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by handejector:
Is it a 60-1 ??
How are you arriving at that date for that serial number?
Lee, The Nov 84 date is based on the s/n/date chart in Supica's SCS&W, so until Roy catches up, and it's lettered, there's no way to know the accuracy of the Nov 1984 date. The gun is clearly stamped model 60 with no dash suffix, and is identical to the photo posted by dwf6666 with the exception of having checked wood grips instead of the goodyears.
I suppose incorrect model stamping sometimes occurs at the factory and is another possibility that the -1 was omitted in error. Anyway, my curiosity is toward finding out if this may be a model 60 CST produced prior to the Ashland run or simply an example that strays outside the block of ALU serial numbers known to be from the Ashland Sports batch.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:35 AM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcelect:
Hey fellas
Be Careful boys! The CST was one of the guns that certain people faked a few years ago. ohiobuckeye has found a couple in southern Ohio and I have found a couple in northern Ohio. Here are the serial number ranges for the CSTs.
1955-1957 114 guns produced in 55050-57xxx
1959 198 guns produced in 149811-150133
1966 1006 guns produced in 391811-392778
1973 Mod 50 568 C 930-J-45 = 936-J-19
1975 Mod 36-1 213 guns produced in 2-J-3124 = 2-J-3347
1989 Mod 36-6 615 guns produced in BEAxxxx

As to ohiobuckeye's question, in 1985 Ashland Shooters Supply made an order for the adjustable sighted mod 60. The run was for 666 guns with product code 102305. Most of the guns were made with an AL?xxxx serial number.
jcelect
Joe, Hmmm...I wonder if this one might be home made?....
I'm beginning to think this model 60 is simply a stray s/n that's probably from the earliest of the Ashland run. Have to wait on a letter to see.
So far, I've managed to snag a 36 CST that Roy dated from the first run in 1955, a three in. CST from the 1989 batch, one of the later three in. CST's in 357, and a stamped model 50. I let one from the 1959 run slip through my fingers and still whack myself on the head for being that dumb.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:37 AM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by yooperpat:
Can anyone tell me when the 60-4s were made? I just recently picked one up.
Thanks.
SCS&W says 1990
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
They advertised it as 1 of 5000 in Shotgun News.
I have always been suspicious of the 660 number, because they show up so often. I'm not speaking of the 3" models here, just the 1 7/8 inch like the one below, which I found at a pawn shop. They show up on GB and here with a degree of frequency that make me believe far more than 660 were made.

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Old 11-21-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
I have always been suspicious of the 660 number, because they show up so often. I'm not speaking of the 3" models here, just the 1 7/8 inch like the one below, which I found at a pawn shop. They show up on GB and here with a degree of frequency that make me believe far more than 660 were made.
That's a good point. I've seen more of the 60 CSTs show up than the model 36 or 50 CSTs over the years.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:35 PM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcelect:
Hey fellas
Be Careful boys! The CST was one of the guns that certain people faked a few years ago. ohiobuckeye has found a couple in southern Ohio and I have found a couple in northern Ohio....
jcelect
Joe..Add this one to our CST bogus list. I just heard back from Roy and s/n AFC9798 left the factory as a standard model 60 with fixed sights. Wouldn't you know it...the only one I neglected to check out before buying is a phony...and a darned good one..
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Joe..Add this one to our CST bogus list. I just heard back from Roy and s/n AFC9798 left the factory as a standard model 60 with fixed sights. Wouldn't you know it...the only one I neglected to check out before buying is a phony...and a darned good one..
DANG that is too bad! If you are able, I would love to see close up pictures of this phony CST to see if we can see any tell-tale signs of the creation. Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:30 PM
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Hey Bill
Sorry to see your 60 is a fake! I guess we're even now, I got a 3" 36-1 in the safe that didn't letter as a CST! I just wonder how much this "education" is going to cost us? ? ?
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:43 PM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by toroflow1:
....If you are able, I would love to see close up pictures of this phony CST to see if we can see any tell-tale signs of the creation. Thanks in advance.
toroflow1, I sent three pictures to your private e-mail and to jcelect. If either of you have the knowhow to post them, please do. As you can see, photography is not one of my finely honed skills.
Externally, the sight profiles, height, etc. neatly match up to the real McCoys I have in my collection. After I sent the pics, it occurred to me to remove the rear sight and compare the milled rear sight channel to the sight channels in the genuine CST's, and OUCH!....The difference in workmanship is obvious. No tool marks in the real thing but very obvious tool marks in the bogus CST. Someone has installed a genuine CST barrel and milled the fixed sight frame for the adjustable rear sight. I didn't measure the sight channel depth but it appears to be right on the money.
I knew bogus model 36 CST's were floating around, from years past, but it never crossed my mind that someone would go to the trouble of doing the same thing to the later stainless guns when the target versions were more available. The extra value just ain't worth the value of the parts and work required to make the change.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:51 PM
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ohiobuckeye,
Your postings lead me to believe that you are taking this as someone who was trying to defraud a future buyer of the firearm. Did the seller try and portray this as an original?

It would not be unusual for a shooter to see a real CST and go "WOW, I want one of those." Not being able to find it they turn to their local gun smith and say "How much to install an adjustable sight?"
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:00 PM
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Here's a DAMN GOOD fake mod 60 with adjustable sights!



This is my Ashland gun

jcelect
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:15 PM
ohiobuckeye ohiobuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
ohiobuckeye,
Your postings lead me to believe that you are taking this as someone who was trying to defraud a future buyer of the firearm. Did the seller try and portray this as an original?

It would not be unusual for a shooter to see a real CST and go "WOW, I want one of those." Not being able to find it they turn to their local gun smith and say "How much to install an adjustable sight?"
The converion is not as simple as a couple of mill cuts and screwing on a rear sight. The standard model CS front sight is very low profile and unless the much much taller CST ramped front sight is also added (sight is integral with the barrel and means a new CST barrel must be found and installed) the gun will probably shoot about six feet high at ten yards.
As far as who knowingly sold it as bogus? No way to know once it left the hands of the person who originally had it converted, and since there's nothing to be done about it, I don't really care. It will be recorded in the SWCA files as bogus, and remain with me until I croak. After that it will either remain with one of my sons or be sold to someone who will be told it's bogus...After that...??? Some people are honest and some are not....That's the way it works...Sad but true.
My initial goal was to determine if the gun was an earlier production run of the real thing. Since it turned out to be counterfeit, the new goal is to nit pick the rework details to see if there are any obvious means of detection for the benefit of other collectors and to get this one permanently listed in the counterfeit files.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:24 PM
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Thanks for posting the pics, Joe.
Aside from the hidden tool marks, the red front sight insert is the only noticeable difference. The rear frame notch, the depth of the rear sight in the frame cut, and the forward tip of the rear sight are positioned exactly like my real CST's.
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:56 PM
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Well, IT's A SHOOTER THEN! I'd not jump to fraud, right off. As said, it may simply be that someone wanted one and had to make it or have it made.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:23 PM
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Hey Bill
Differences to notice between our guns!
#1 the front sight on my gun is serrated on the back and it appears yours is not.
#2 the radius of the tip on your gun is much shorter than mine.
#3 the red ramp is not as deep as most I have seen on other J frames. I have a 36 CST with red ramp, white outline, and target trigger and the red is much deeper.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:03 PM
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Joe, The serrations are there but obscured by my fuzzy photography, and they look correct. The angle of the gun makes the front sight nose radius look sharper than it really is but after comparing the actual gun to your broadside photo of the Ashland gun, it still appears to have a somewhat shorter radius. Not much, but different.
A good squint with a magnifying glass, and comparing the red insert to other's known to be real, makes me think you're right. The proportion is wrong and although the fit is pretty darn good, it lacks the perfection of a factory installed insert. Probably added by the same varmint who replaced the barrel.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:45 PM
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Hello,
I have a 60-1 that has target sights, the serial starts ANxxxx...does anyone have any info on this prefix? I have not seen one like it
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Old 06-23-2010, 08:51 AM
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My Ashland gun is SN ALU1600. My research indicates that there were only 660 of that run built. Maybe there were some more in a "use up the parts" run by S&W (it has been known to happen). The frequency of their appearance for sale is probably due to the fact that they are at first glance unique, more so than many other Smiths, and therefore many folks think they are worth big bucks. I have a 60-4 and it is by far the better packing gun IMHO.
BTW, I got mine from a fellow Forum member about 6 months ago.
IIRC the first Target Chiefs (M36) were made for HH Harris Company, a well known Chicago police supply gun shop. I remember seeing one there about 1960, he had had them for a long time, they just were not popular with the cops of the time, they were square butt, which turned me off as I (still) prefer round butt J frames.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:25 AM
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This one (which I ordered from Ashland in, I think, 1986) is ALU47XX.

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Old 05-23-2015, 10:35 AM
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Here's one for sale in the classifieds.

WTS- S&W Model 60-1 Ashland Special
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Old 05-24-2015, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yooperpat View Post
Can anyone tell me when the 60-4s were made? I just recently picked one up.
Thanks.
My 60-4 was made in June 1992.
Product code 102298 3" S TH TT FL AS SG RB
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Old 05-24-2015, 06:26 PM
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Lobster Picnic: I have a 60-4 what is the code SG I know all the rest of the codes. Thanks for your help!
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Old 05-24-2015, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by stiab View Post
I have always been suspicious of the 660 number, because they show up so often. I'm not speaking of the 3" models here, just the 1 7/8 inch like the one below, which I found at a pawn shop. They show up on GB and here with a degree of frequency that make me believe far more than 660 were made.

I agree they do show up quite often. I have one, and sometime back there were 2 other ones in stores in my area.I still think it is a neat little gun.
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Old 05-24-2015, 09:36 PM
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Lobster Picnic: I have a 60-4 what is the code SG I know all the rest of the codes. Thanks for your help!
"Synthetic grip".
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Old 05-24-2015, 11:51 PM
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Pulled mine out to check s/n. Mine is ALU40xx. I really like the 1 7/8" CST. Fits right in with my snubby 34's & 63's.
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  #39  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:11 PM
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Hey guys, help me out with some serial numbers, all info confidential

Chief Special Target Research & Survivors List Redux
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Old 10-26-2017, 04:13 AM
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But a small .38 is far more effective than a M-34 or M-63 .22! And takes up no more bulk.

I gave up on the concept of a .22 Kit Gun years ago after thinking this through.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:38 PM
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I have one of the 2" model 60 with the adjustable sights. The serial # preface is ANB...
I have the matching box also.

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Old 11-08-2017, 09:54 PM
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I have one of the 2" model 60 with the adjustable sights. The serial # preface is ANB...
I have the matching box also.

Chop
That's an Ashland.
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Old 11-19-2020, 10:56 PM
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As to ohiobuckeye's question, in 1985 Ashland Shooters Supply made an order for the adjustable sighted mod 60. The run was for 666 guns with product code 102305. Most of the guns were made with an AL?xxxx serial number.
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I just bought this one an hour ago at my favorite LGS--it had Hogues on it so the shop took them off to get the serial #--ALU XXXX. Carried by LEO who got it from the very same shop I bought it in--the owner special ordered a couple back in the 80's; one for himself and another for his pal.

I knew there were a couple floating around the island--I'm stoked to have snagged this one. The wear and tear on it make it a shooter for me, which is what I want. Too bad the grip pin is missing but I have a spare in my parts box.

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Old 11-20-2020, 10:28 AM
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Wow, you've dredged up a zombie thread.

Nice Ashland Chiefs Special Target. Really nice to know the history. Congrats on your find.

All the Ashland CSTs on my list shipped from late spring to fall of 1985.

I believe the currently accepted number for the Ashland order is a "not so devilish" 660.
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:12 PM
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Hey Bob, I figured why have everyone go through the trouble to repost stuff that's already there, hence the necropost/zombie thread. Missed Halloween by almost a month but I just bought it yesterday, lol.

I looked at it again today, the grip pin is missing. The grips that are on it are Hogues and the straddle doesn't go over the pin--it loops around the grip frame so the original pin is gone. No biggie, I've got an extra laying around.

Apparently there's more that a couple floating around in HI--King's Sporting Goods supposedly brought in a bunch for HPD guys (IDK how many) and Les Martin supposedly made up a few in his shop. I'm pretty sure this one's an Ashland and as for the others, they just don't turn up. This one is maybe the second one I've seen in 30 years (?).

I don't care--it's mine and I'm shooting it. If only I didn't have to wait 3 months to get the permit to acquire!

Last edited by jc2721; 11-20-2020 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:22 PM
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Hey Bob, I figured why have everyone go through the trouble to repost stuff that's already there, hence the necropost/zombie thread. Missed Halloween by almost a month but I just bought it yesterday, lol.

I looked at it again today, the grip pin is missing. The grips that are on it are Hogues and the straddle doesn't go over the pin--it loops around the grip frame so the original pin is gone. No biggie, I've got an extra laying around.

Apparently there's more that a couple floating around in HI--King's Sporting Goods supposedly brought in a bunch for HPD guys (IDK how many) and Les Martin supposedly made up a few in his shop. I'm pretty sure this one's an Ashland and as for the others, they just don't turn up. This one is maybe the second one I've seen in 30 years (?).

I don't care--it's mine and I'm shooting it. If only I didn't have to wait 3 months to get the permit to acquire!
Three months?! Where do you live?
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Old 11-21-2020, 04:06 AM
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Three months?! Where do you live?
Honolulu. The system sucks to say the least.
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Old 11-21-2020, 01:22 PM
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Has anyone seen or heard from ohiobuckeye. Bill has just disappeared!
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Old 11-21-2020, 02:36 PM
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AWESOME REVOLVER!!!!
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Old 11-21-2020, 05:44 PM
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I had one of the Ashland s.n. range guns. It had an ALU s.n. I sold it here on the forum after obtaining a 60-4, which was better for my purposes, and is one of my all-time favorite S&Ws.
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