It's my understanding that by the transition to semi-autos, the "standard" 357 load was the 125 grain JHP. But I believe that before that, the most popular duty 357 load was a 158 grain. Is this true? Was it a JHP or a wadcutter?

I understand that there was no official standard load, I'm asking about most widely-used.

Also, is it safe to say that the "standard" 38 Special load was a 158 grain LRN, which was later supplanted in many departments by 158 grain +P SWCHP ("FBI" type load)?

I guess overall I am trying to figure out the spectrum of 38 Special and 357 Duty ammo. Thanks.

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Aaron Terry

Hi, Before My old agency transitioned from the revolver to the semiauto. We were issued 158gr. JHP for our 66-2's...
I carried a 19-4 as a back up and used the same ammunition. I am sure the guys with the 686's used 125's

For practicing we were given .38 special 158 grain wad cutters.

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M.J.Hanna

Don't believe there was a 'standard'. My agency issued Colt Trooper Mk III's when I started on '80, changing to S&W M66's in about '81-'82. Even though these were .357's, the issue load was .38 Spl. +P 110 gr., and later, 125 gr. JHP.
The reasons were many fold. Some of the female and 'non-shooter' types probably could not qualify with magnum ammo (that was told to us even though at that time I recall qualification was done with .38 WC loads....)
Also, in retrospect I believe it was largely a move toward political correctness. There were some powerful factions in the local government that would have had us carry water pistols if they could.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

aterry 33, I worked in a medium sized department in Virginia from 1972 to 1998 and can tell you that in the case of our department the 38 Spl duty loads were LRN of various strengths of powder charge, low bid and all. For practice and qualification we used everything from loose in the box 3-D ammo that would almost rival black powder for amount of soot left in gun to, at one time our department along with several others bought a fairly high end star reloading machine and we loaded for several area departments. I never did ask the person in charge of reloading what type or size charge of powder that was being used.

During my career I carried everything from a Target model 10 complete with lanyard loop on handle to a model 64. Then we went to bottom loaders and I carried both a 15 round 9MM S&W, I believe to be a model 6905 to a later 40 Cal that I was issued just four months before I retired and purchased same for one dollar. I know I gave you a fair amount more than you asked for, however, the trip down memory lane was fun.

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Life is like a roll of toilet paper, the closer to the end it get, the faster it goes

Guys, thanks for the stories, I really enjoy reading them. That's one of the things I love about this site--there are plenty of LE officers here who actually carried these guns.

158 GR LRN was the "widowmaker" round right. Did you guys call it that?

True or False: For the most part, agencies used 158gr HP 357 ammo, then switched to the 110 or 125gr HP stuff (except in the K Frame Smiths where some problems occurred, and they stuck with the 158gr stuff).

I guess it was in the 70s that they started switching to the 110/125 gr 357s?

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Aaron Terry

I think we carried the 200 grain lead round in .38 Special when I started. At one time we carried Model 28's with 6" barrel, and we stuffed with Speer Lawman 158 grain Magnums. It was pretty hot stuff. One officer said it "killed on one end and maimed on the other". I think it ran in the neighborhood of 1500 fps. It was pretty brutal after 50 or 100 rounds trying to qualify!!

Hi:
In the early 1960s when I began the .38 "Service Load" was 158 gr. LRN. Officers purchased Their service revolver which was a S&W or Colt .38/.357, 4"-6" barrel, six shot. If a .357, the issue ammo was still 158gr. LRN. Later the 200gr. JRN,357 users could use 158gr. LSWC Magnum ammo.
After Department issued service revolvers (S&W M64) the issue ammo was 125gr. JHP. Most Police involved shootings after the new issue ammo, the suspects were wounded in the lower extremines (thighs/legs). Someone woke up to the fact that the Model 64s fixed sights were Factory sighted for 158gr. LRN,
thus with the lighter bullet the weapons where hitting low.
The next step was "GLOCK M17s". Next GLOCK M22s.
Jimmy

1979, when I started we were issued S&W branded 158 gr. semi-jacketed soft point for our model 10 heavy barrel duty issue. I think they avoided hollow points then because it was considered politically incorrect even before political correctness was even in style. Just prior they had transitioned from 158 gr. RNL so this was considered a step forward. It was a +p round and had a better chance of penetrating a car door than the RNL. We also had a Star reloading machine and the practice ammo was 148 gr wadcutters. They were loaded so light you could actually see the bullet flying downrange! Around 1984 when the model 10's were replaced with 586 we actually took a step backwards and were issued Winchester 95 gr Silvertip HP that some "expert" recommended. This was the last revolver round until the G17 replaced revolvers. The G17 round was Speer 115gr HP. Now we are issued G22/23 and 180 gr Gold Dot HP. Just think, the 180 is almost twice the weight of that 95 grainer.

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Tony

Started out with .38 Super Vel - 110gr JHP, later went to Federal 110 gr JHP with specs about the same as the super vel. This was the std for over 20 years - until the autos took over. Qualification was done with full power duty ammo - monthly.

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Martin Co,FLA(finally made it)

When I started in 1971, we purchased our own revolvers, but in 1973, it was mandated that the department furnish all "safety equipment", so they purchased 600 Model 19's in the 4" configuration.

Two days after being issued a 4" Model 19 to replace my personally owned 6" Model 19, I was shot at by a drunk with a .30-30 Winchester from just a little over 100 yards away. I hadn't even fired the 4" that was just issued to me and didn't have a clue where the sights were set for. I had fired my 6" Model 19 extensively at 100 yards (I worked the desert, with lots of open space) in the past and knew where it hit at that distance, but didn't know where the 4" would hit. After getting behind some good cover and calling for backup from 30 miles away, all I could do was wait him out. After getting some help, he was taken into custody about 5 hours later, without another shot being fired.

Our duty ammunition at that time was Speer Lawman 125 grain JSP. The primers were so hard that about 10% of the rounds wouldn't go off when we shot up our old duty ammunition for qualification once a year. The practice ammunition at that time was 148 grain wadcutters, loaded by the dept. rangemaster. You could almost run to the target faster than those wadcutters got there.

In 1977, I was promoted to Senior Deputy and chosen Dept. Rangemaster and the first thing I did was change the practice ammunition to 158 grain SWC bullets, loaded to full power. The next was change the duty ammunition to Winchester JHP +P 110 grain .38's. I wanted a heavier bullet and .357 Magnum, but County Counsel told the Sheriff that there was no way they would allow it. (I still hate those lawyer weanies in County Counsel)

When Winchester came out with the Silver Tip in .38 Special, we were one of the first departments in the nation to adopt it. It was probably the best duty ammunition in that caliber at the time. I left the range in 1979, when I promoted to Sergeant. The Silver Tip was eventually replaced by the Federal Hydro-Shock in .38 Special.

In 1980, we got a new Sheriff who had been a Captain in the dept. and was a "gun guy". He allowed any handgun (within certain parameters) of 9mm or above. I immediately qualified with my Model 57 .41 Magnum and carried that until a year and a half before I retired, when some training jerk convinced the Sheriff (different Sheriff) that everyone needed to carry the same gun and it should be a (shudder) Glock 22.

Even as a Lieutenant, Captain and Commander, I still carried my Model 57 whenever in uniform, which was most of the time. By the time they converted to the G-22 in 1993, I was in a suit and behind a desk, and ready to retire.

I still have the 6" Model 19 and 6" Model 57. I don't own a Glock..........

Hope this helps.

Fred

reloader fred,
UGGGGGGG!!!! I feel your pain....
I think I am the last generation of cop to be issued a revolver. I was issued a model 66 as my duty weapon. My agency then went to the Glock 21.
I have been with a few different agencies now and all of them are using the same duty weapons. The agency I am with now is a bit more open minded. It seems us patrol guys still have to carry issued Glocks. but the detectives and office jockies can carry what they qualify with....Makes me want to go to C.I.D. to be able to carry my revolver full time instead of it as a back up gun...

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M.J.Hanna

Being a current LEO and firearms instructor, it is very interesting reading about the past of some of the other departments and problems you went through with "non free thinkers". The problem is still here today. Our department has not changed policy, YET, about revolvers. There is still a couple of guys who still qualify and carry their model 65 or 66, but it is only like 2. I do carry a semi-auto as my primary, but my back-up duty gun (should the semi break) is a Smith model 686+. I am only 32 and think revolvers should not go away. I qual every year with it and wear it when I have to work "the desk", answering phone calls, walk-ins, etc. at the precinct, usually 1-2 days a month.

The way the department is getting away from revolvers is by not buying any more duty/practice ammo. It's gone for good now. So, now it is just a matter of time before policy change. I am on our committee and always vote for leaving it, but I get out-voted.

We issued 158 grain Speer Gold Dot HP up until just a few months ago when supply ran out. I have had the opprotunity to shoot some gel, doors, windows, clothing, etc and it seemed to perform very well. Held together and expanded well. I know a lot of our guys are using the Speer Gold Dot HP in their J-frames .38 specials, either 125 or 135 grain. Testing with that also looks good. If I remember, I will get my samples from work and post some pics here.

The first department where I worked did not issue firearms but authorized personally owned firearms in 9mm, .38 Special, or .357 Magnum from Browning, Colt, or Smith & Wesson. Duty ammo was Remington, although I don't remember the respective loads.
At the next department, I was issued a S&W Model 15 with 4 inch barrel. Duty ammo was W-W 158 grain LSWCHP+P. Practice ammo was 158 grain LSWC.

This is always an interesting topic... I worked for Dallas PD in the 1970s and 80s. Issue gun upon arrival and departure was the S&W M64 .38 Special. Ammo was always the same...158 LSWC-HP +P. The maker was usually Winchester or Remington. The range loaded all practice/qualification ammo... However one was free to carry any S&W, Colt or Browning revolver or semi-auto from .38 Special to .45 Colt. Patrol was limited to 3.5-6.5" barrels but Investigators could carry 2" guns and could also carry .380 semi-autos.

Ammo wise, if you carried a .38 or .357 Magnum then the Department gave you the ammo to qualify free....everything else was individually purchased. Duty ammo the same, if you wanted to carry the city issue .38 Special load they would give you a box a year. Anything else you had to buy or make yourself...and handloads were allowed. Just nothing incendiary or explosive.

One thing not addressed so far was qualifying with duty ammo. Once upon a time one could get away with carrying .357 Magnum and qualifying with .38s. Don't remember the year but there was a lawsuit that changed all that. Seems that an officer missed a shot and injured/killed someone he should not have. He was shooting .357s and had only qualified with .38s. The attorney for the civil plaintiff argued that this was a major reason the officer missed the shot and hurt his innocent client....and the city lost.

This decision was of course was distributed to all the insurance companies and city attorneys and this ended up with training mandates. Academies/departments then had to make sure officers then qualified with the ammo they carried. Here in NH an officer must shoot back to back qualifying scores one of which must be with the duty ammo and do it twice a year.

Bob

Hey Super man,

You probably knew my Dad, Gerald Rivers. He retired from DPD in 89.

Chris

I started in law enforcement in 1976. My first department, a sheriff's office, allowed any revolver .38 or larger. However, the only qualifying ammo provided was .38 special 148 gr full wadcutter. We could provide any other ammo. I carried several different guns while there, including a S&W 1917, a Highway Patrolman, and a M27 that was converted to .44 Special.

I later went to a medium sized city that allowed .38 special, 9mm, or larger. I continued to carry my big guns, settling on a fullsized, aluminum framed Gov't Model in .45 ACP that I built myself.

This department also only issued .38 special wadcutter ammo for quals. I went to the police academy while there and took a 4" M19 that I had roundbutted.

I carried other handguns on ocassion, including a S&W 2nd model hand ejector .455 6 1/2" that was converted to .45 Colt, a 2nd model .44 Special 6 1/2", a 5 1/2" Redhawk .44 Magnum, a 4" M57, a steel framed 1911, a 4" M25-5, a 4" M24-3, and a M625 3" .45 ACP. I even carried a .455 Webley & Scott MK V that had been converted to .45 ACP!

There was no standard ammo at either department while I worked for them. I saw everything from .38 special reloaded wadcutters to .44 Magnum reloads carried on duty. I carried reloads for years, then settled on .45 ACP HydraShock.

I was carrying the M625 when I retired in 2001. Both departments wer in Alabama.

I also worked for a few months for the Board of Corrections. The guns in the towers were M10s, Remington WingMasters, a 760 .30-06, a Stevens M311 12 gauge, and a couple of M-1 carbines. The rounds had to be counted at the beginning and end of each shift.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

When I started on duty in 1973 our department issued mostly the M19 4-inch. I was issued one of the few M19 6-inch revolvers as I was on the pistol team. In the beginning issue ammo was 38 Spl. Super Vel 110JHP and 357 Mag Rem. 158 SWC. Dept. had some wierd policies in that we were to carry the 38 Spl. ammo only in the cylinder, but our back up loads could be the 357 at our option. Don't think that policy was based upon anything other than the opinion of the administrators. To their credit, though, the 38 158 RNL was prohibited on and off duty due to excessive penetration tendencies. Training rounds were usually Zero Bullet Co. re-man. 148 mid-range WC. Later came 38 SPL Rem. 125+P JHP and 357 Mg. Rem. 125JHP with the same carry guidelines. Eventually duty ammo was used for qualification and 38 WC was used mainly by our pistol team for practice/match use.

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S&W Armorer
Lost in the 50s

My two cents.....1987 was issued a 681 with issued Winchester 125 JHP 38 +p in it. Then to a state agency and caught the tail end of 2 1/2 inch 66's with S&W brand 158 JHP in 357. Hard to qualify with that one!. Then to 469's with 115 gr silvertips. Then the FBI shooting happened, so for some reason we went to the 147 subsonic in the 469. Then back to a local agency for 4006's with 155 gr Silver tips which is still the issued load in the Glocks. Now carry 165 gr Gold dot by Georgia arms as the issued load in a Glock. A very proactive agency....allows the Kimber TLE II in 45 also. Issues .223 patrol rifles as well. 55 gr soft point in those.

When I entered the academy in 1979, my agency issued me an used S&W Model 28-2 6" bbl (made in 1968). About a year or so later, we went to the Treasury load, .38 Special +P+ (110 gr, I think) and we carried that until we went to autopistols in 1989.

BTW, we were told that they weren't hollowpoints, they were "controlled expansion" and if anyone had any questions about it to refer them to the Chief's office.

I also started in 1971 on the island of Martha's Vinyard on the east coast. We supplied our own guns at the time. I purchased an early Model 66-1 and then an early model 60 as an off duty. They were great The salt air on the island was hell on blued guns. I think that I carried 125 gr. JHP's at the time. I then wernt to a Browning HP for a while and thought that the high cap was pretty kool.

When I moved to Colorado and was the Undersheriff in Eagle County, I went to a 2.5" model 66-2 for a while and then switched to a 1911 for about 25 years after that until I resigned in 2007. I was fortunate in that I could carry what I wanted for almost my entire career. Now I am a reserve with my former dept. where I had been the Chief for 11 yrs. The new Chief issues Glock 22's now. I was given one as a reserve officer and he also supplies the ammo which is currently a Winchester Lawman 180 gr JHP. For me, I will still take a .45 any day over the .40 cal. I may be old fashioned but I believe that officers take better care of a gun that they purchased themselves then a dept. issued one and that they should be able to choose what they are comfortable with, within dept. peramiters rather than dictate what they shall carry.

T

T

In the late 60s, when I first started to be a wanabe cop, "The" load on my home town PD was Win. 158gr. Lubaloy (copper washed lead)38 spc, commonly called "Pumkin rollers". The one guy that carried a 27 3 1/2" was not allowed to carry magnum loads. Some of the guys carried handloads, mostly 158 gr. SWCs.

By the time I was sworn in, in the summer of 75, most of my dept. carried 125 gr. HPs of some kind ( you had to buy your own) either 38 or 357. A few carried SuperVel 110s but most carrried Remington, Winchester or Federals. I shot a box of shells a year of the duty ammo. Shot up the 18 carried rounds about every 4 months or so and refilled from the box. Bought a new box when I loaded the last of the old box. We also shot 3-D 38s for practice until we started buying Black Hills.

In 1985, my dept. switched to 9 mil. I was the last guy to switch over because I was the firearms Inst. and we were having trouble getting decent leather for the unit we were forced to carry. It was as hard to get good leather for a simi-auto then as it is to get wheelgun leather now! (the mayor thought the Hiway patrols 9s were nifty, so that is what he bought without consulting anyone on the PD) The last Dept. loads furnished for wheelguns were Federal 125 gr. in 357 and 158 gr. SWC hp for the two guys still carrying 38 spc..

During my career in the NJSP, we switched from the .38 Special 158 gr. LRN to the .38 Special Speer? 110 gr. JHP to the 9mm Remington 115 gr. JHP.

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Steve
NJ State Trooper (rtd)

My first duty gun in 1977 was a personally-owned M28 4". We were issued 125 gr. .357 hollowpoints (don't remember which brand). Later, when the fear of the word "magnum" became an issue, we were issued 125 gr. .38 special +P. I was awfully happy when we went to 645's in the mid 80's.

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Dave Frost