In the early 1960s I was in the Army but served on three Air Force Radar Squadrons. The Air Police there carried Combat Masterpiece revolvers. I presume they were marked USAF or something similiar. When these became obsolete (with the adoption of the Beretta 92?) did any of them make it out into the civilian market or were they all destroyed?

They weren't destroyed as far as I know, but none have ever been officially released for public sale.
However...some are on the market.
I've posted this one a few times, but it's one of my favorites.

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John

Gorgeous. You can tell the air farce didn't require the carriers of that particular piece to train much.

They seem never to have been sold as surplus, but examples are in civilian hands. I think they represent stolen guns. Some have appeared on this board, one now being for sale in Europe. It has seen better days, but is supposedly identifiable as a USAF piece. No way to know how it came on the market, probably.

FYI, the guns seem all to have had target hammers and triggers, and can be distinguished from the civilian M-15 by the initials U.S.A.F stamped above the trigger on the left side of the frame. Someone will probably post a photo of one. (NOTE: this was typed as the above posts were being made.)

Some were reportedly refinished in a Parkerized finish by military armorers.
All that I saw while in the Air Force had the regular bright blue finish.

There was a snub version, called the M-56 by the AF.It was presumably the forerunner to the snub M-15. I think these had the standard hammer and trigger. Frankly, I prefer those to the target version. Gen. LeMay had some idea that the target features would enhance qualifying.

In addition to Air Police/Security Forces, the Combat Masterpiece was often issued to aircrew, combat control teams, pararescuemen, OSI agents, and, probably, others. From the early 1960's until 1985, it was the standard USAF handgun,although supplemented by others.

Someone posted here a few days ago that a genuine example sells for about $1500-2500, depending on condition, and who has it. Unless you're a collector, you'd be FAR better off to look for a civilian example for maybe $400. Apart from those four letters above the trigger, you'd have the same gun, and no chance of being busted for being in possession of stolen government property. Not that I really think that is likely unless you display the gun openly and brag how rare it is. Then some jealous jerk may turn you in...

LATER: the same goes for the Air Police badge in the photo above. Those were controlled items, which allowed access to many restricted areas, as well as identifying an Air Force cop. I had to turn mine in when I left active duty. (The policy on that may well have changed over the years.) I still remember my badge number...

T-Star

I tried to turn in my badge when I got out, but they told me to keep it, so I did.
It's the one I wore for my entire 4 years.

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John

Jay-

Congratulations. Maybe by the time that happened, the design was changing? I was in during the 1960's and the Cold War was sometimes just short of hot. That may have made a difference. And some supply officers were probably more lax than others.

I even had to return my night stick to get a release from Supply. But I'm sure that some bases were more strict than others.

You have a valuable momento there. Take care of it. I think it should be a family heirloom! When I was in, unneeded badges were decreed destroyed by ball peen hammers, lest they get into the wrong hands.

T-Star

T-Star,
You don't know that they were stolen.
We believe the AF transferred some to civilian police departments. From there, they made their way into the open market when the departments probably traded them to a wholesaler for new guns.
One that I owned came throough a full bird that retired from Warner Robbins.
I doubt he stole it.
Perhaps he bought it.
Perhaps someone with enough rank said "write it off".

Likewise, we often have S&W's turn up that won't letter because they are open on the books, meaning no record of shipment. That does not mean they were stolen.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Hand Ejector-

Just saw your post.

You have a good point, and I am NOT accusing anyone in particular of taking either gun or badge. I know of another badge in the hands of a well know gun writer who has photographed it in his articles. He would hardly do that, unless he felt that it was no problem.

My concern is simply that, with an anti-gun administration in power, unless one can prove how he came by such an item, it may lead to controversy. Of course, that has been true for generations! I gather that this is seldom addressed by the authorities. Still, I'd feel better if I could document how I came by such a purchase. I am quite sure that some retiring officers were allowed to take them, then later sold them, or their heirs did. Others vanished from inventories via various means. Again, I am not implying that JayCee or anyone else has done anything wrong. I was speaking strictly in generalities. And being on the conservative side, at that. What I should have said is that some examples MAY represent items that did not officially leave Air Force custody.

"I think they represent stolen guns."

You should not have made this statement.
As I stated above, there is evidence that the AF transferred some to PD's.
How many 1911's and 1917's have we seen butchered by grinding off the "US Property" stamps because some idiot thought it meant it was stolen?

The gun pictured here came through a pawn shop, meaning the number was run through the computer by the police department. Had it been listed as stolen, it would not be seen here.
So, you cast doubt on every AF Mod 15 out there, whether released legally or not. Researching the paper trail on military weapons is nigh on impossible. It probably exists, but having the time and resources and access to find it is seldom possible.
Therefore, it would be better to assume one is legal till it is proven otherwise. Your statement does us no service.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Okay. Read my amended post, which I made before I just saw your last one. My intial choice of words was too absolute. And the basic issue has existed not just for these guns but for all sorts of government property that was never officially released in large quantities.

I have no idea where the particular gun you mentioned came from; you are surely well satisfied that it is legit, and you seem to know its background. I certainly don't think one would be displayed here unless the owner felt secure that he held it properly.

My caveat was couched in broad terms, and not in reference to any particular example. I hope that my prior post made that clear, but here it is again, in case anyone misunderstood. I was certainly NOT trying to do either the board or any particular individual a disservice.

If anyone thought otherwise, my apologies. By the time that I realized that the initial post could be misinterpreted, you had already seen it and posted.

Sorry: I should have phrased that note of caution better in the first place. Or, maybe just avoided the issue, which has the potential to be controversial.

T-Star

That revolver is so pretty (no holster wear) that it probably did belong to an officer. The wood in those grips is prettier than any I have seen in magna grips, too. You can buy badges online, too.

Jay, nice example and great provenance. Nice magnas on that one in particular.
Chuck

Those badges are obsolete. The USAF dumped them several years ago as surplus. You can buy them on EBay.

Lee, T-Star,

At this point it shouldn't really matter how they found their way to the market. Any statute of limitations should have expired years ago.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I was aircrew (C 5 FE) and during the time when it was all the rage to hijack airplanes we carried snubby 15s. I think they were called 56s, I can't remember what but it was not a 15. Once a year we had to go to the range and shoot 50 rounds of ammo. The ejector rods kept coming loose.

What we carried in the gun was three rounds of ball ammo and three (the first three) rounds of that pellets in a bag stuff.

When I retired I took my flight gear to supply (including a very expensive arctic flight jacket) and was told to keep it. I still have it. Anybody want a bunch of zoom bags, size 38 long?

My understanding is that General LeMay disliked the M1911A1 and preferred revolvers. He was commanding officer of SAC from its inception around 1947 until 1957 and then became Chief of Staff until 1965. AF personnel either loved him or hated him as did many politicians. However, when the flak started flying I bet anyone would prefer him driving left seat. I suspect he was personally involved in the Aircrewman (aluminum snub-nose revolvers for air crews) program, choice for the Model 15 for Air Police, and eventually the Model 56 for air crews, missile crews, etc.

I think you are correct. I read that somewhere, years ago. During my service, one of the range people told me that the general was dismayed with handgun scores by USAF personnel, and thought that the wide target hammer and trigger on the issued M-15 would raise scores. I couldn't tell that it did. What was needed was more training and a better impression of the value of a sidearm on those who carried them.

Actually, the wide trigger made double-action fire harder.

I have to say that few airmen whom I knew were really very interested in handguns. Some were, but we were exceptions. But most managed to qualify at at least the Marksman level.

Besides the Combat Masterpiece, we had a boatload of older .38's, most being Victory Models bummed from the Navy. There were a few Colts, though. Some were commercial Official Police models, the rest the rough-finished Commando model. Investigators carried Cobras with shrouded hammers on the base where I spent most of my tour.

We still had a few .45 autos, and I often chose to carry one. Jeff Cooper had already convinced me of the merits of that gun. Actually, when I was stationed in Newfoundland, we had ONLY .45 autos, and M-2 carbines. They had a treaty that said that when the US abandoned the base, the Canadians got to keep our stuff. So, they never sent M-16's or .38's up there.

My auxiliary AP's, who would have helped us if an attack had come, were so gun naive that most had fired only the carbine, in basic training. In many cases, that had been years before. I found that many of these augmentees could barely recall how to load and fire the weapons! Thankfully, the Cold War never turned hot, and we never had an attack by Spetnaz troops from off a Soviet submarine. I used to be concerned that it might happen. (I was then at a remote radar site on a coastline.)

For what it's worth, I sometimes wore my own Colt Gold Cup .45 on duty in Canada. Then, some officer who went by the regs told the colonel, and I went back to a M-1911A-1, all Colt -made. The colonel wasn't too wigged out over it. Just told me to stop carrying a personal gun, and to use an issued holster instead of the Border Patrol style rig that I had brought from home.

T-Star

That's certainly a nice picture, and a fine gun...but in the last 30 years of my active duty service (still going), and qualification and carry of the Model 15 for official purposes (aircrew), as well as close association with the Security Police (now Security Forces), I have never seen nor heard of a gun so configured. All that I used, saw, carried (and this was quite a number at a number of locations), were of the standard S&W Model 15 nomenclature - standard hammer and trigger, no "U.S.A.F" markings. It is possible that these were the early issues of this revolver, as those I used were 3 screw models, no diamond grips, pinned barrels. The Air Force has always issued personal sidearms to general officers, which upon retirement, could be purchased. That may explain why some of these early guns surfaced on the used market.

Despite the fact that these revolvers often had some extensive wear, every one I shot was accurate and had a fine action. I even won a leg medal in a military pistol match with one (a long time ago).

These guns were retired from active inventory shortly after Operation Desert Storm, replaced by the M9 (Beretta Model 92) which continues to be the Air Force issue arm.

Back in the 1960's, it was somewhat of a status symbol to have a wide target hammer and wide target trigger installed on a S&W revolver. Except for off hand and National Match style shooting, they were basically useless. The Model 15 came standard with a semi-target hammer (a little wider than the service hammer) which was just as good as the wide for single action cocking. The half-inch wide trigger was really too wide for the S&W trigger guards and they always made me a little nervous on the range when the guys were re-holstering a loaded weapon. Double action shooting is easier with a standard width trigger, anyway. I suppose LeMay felt that the "goodies" would make a better shooter out of a mediocre shooter. Most of us familiar with shooting know that it's not the goodies, but good shooting skills that make a good shooter.

I was an Air Force Security Police officer from 1983 to 1991, getting out at the rank of Captain at Bergstrom AFB outside of Austin, TX. I was issued a variety of Model 15s, and wish I would have paid more attention to their configuration (TT, TH). I know I never got a bad one, and they were all very accurate even with the awful ball ammo we had to carry.

I'm not sure how any got into the civilian marketplace, but I suspect "leakage" from a number of sources. I could have gotten one myself - an RF-4C (aka Texas Lawn Dart) smacked a highway overpass and scattered itself all over the road on approach to the base. The pilots ejected and parachuted to safety in a nearby trailer park. I was on scene trying to keep people from walking off with classified trinkets when a guy walked up to me with one of the crew's Model 15, lost in the violent ejection from the jet. I turned it in, because I'm not a thief, but if I had kept it I'm sure it would have just been written off as lost and never entered into NCIC. It wasn't unheard of for them to come up missing during armory inventories, either, and I highly doubt these guns were entered into NCIC.

I've never heard of the Air Force giving surplus guns to police departments, but I suppose it could have happened.

And, yes, the statute of limitations has most definitely run for theft of government property, but that only applies to prosecuting the thief, not for recovery of stolen property.

So what would I do if I came across a USAF stamped Model 15 in the course of my day-to-day G-man duties? I'd probably fondle it heavily and try to buy it. Uncle Sam has bigger problems than trying to recover an "obsolete" weapon they've gotten rid of anyway.

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

At our armory we currently have one Model 15 Combat Masterpiece with TT, TH. It is currently used by our K-9 folk to fire blanks and familiarize the dogs to gunfire. I have handled and drooled over it. It locks up tight and other than the rear sight blade being a bit dinged up it is in good condition. We are still issued badges but the badge number really doesn't mean anything. If you need a badge you draw one from supply.

To get this post in context...I take it that you are still in the Air Force?

If so, are the current badges like that in the photo, or a new style? You say that you draw a badge if needed. When would it not be needed? (Pretend there's a Confused Smilie here.)

Thanks,

T-Star

I am amazed at how sorry and inaccurate most autoloaders shoot in comparison to a revolver. My daughter and I were at the range yesterday and I let her shoot my Model15 and 28-2. She did really good with both. Preferring the 15 over the 28 because of the weight. My shooting ability is not great but I try. The ONLY autos I am able to shoot reasonably well are My Colt Gold Cup and a really hi dollar Browning GP Comp. Neither shoot as accurately as that old 28-2 for me at least

Texas Star,

Yes I am currently in the Air Force. One gets their badge issued at the completion of tech school however, if it is lost or damaged etc one can draw a new one from supply. The number is pretty much for accountability and not used in reports or given out etc. Also the metal badge is only worn in blues. The ABU/BDU badge is an embroidered patch that is sewn on so detail is not that sharp. We don't wear blues that often. Working flight and with deployments I only wear my blues and my badge maybe 10 times a year.

I would rather be issued the Model 15 over the M9.

Thanks.

I can understand why many would prefer the M-15 .38. I own a Beretta, and I like it, but the better finish and mechanical qualities of the revolver have much appeal.

But if I was in a situation like the AP flights were in during the Tet Offensive in Jan., 1968 (Ton Son Nhut Airport) , the greater firepower of the auto would make sense. And the issue 9mm load is hotter than the issued .38 ammo. I never had a lot of faith in it.

Of course, in the Ton Son Nhut battle, the M-16 and machineguns took precedence over sidearms. But had anything gone wrong with a rifle or it ran dry, the handgun might have made the difference. It has, for my son in Iraq.

Thanks for your info. I appreciate it.

T-Star

Most of the Model 15s I carried as a Security Policeman and later as an aircrew member were in excellent shape. The weapons we qualified with were "owned" by CATM; Combat Arms Training and Maintenance, a section of Security Police (I was in before the name changed to Security Forces). These were the practice weapons and they showed their use.
P.S.-I was issued my first badge when I graduated from tech school in 1981. Later, a smaller size badge was issued for wear on the shirt. We wore embroidered badges on our fatigues. I still have both the large and small metal badges; I retired from the Air Force in 2008.

On a similar note, I saw female MPs at Ft Benning carrying M15 S&Ws. This was in the '70s.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Check out these cool Jay Scott's:



Nice doggie.......



Oddly cute:

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

To bring the OP question back to the front, yes the AF did have many obsolete model 15 revolvers destroyed. I have seen them completely destroyed by a hammer press machine and there were NO useable parts. Even the wooden grips were left on as they were smashed. The last batch I saw was at the Knob Creek gunshow in Spring 2007, all packed into a crate, rusting, with the same USAF stamp as in the great pic posted here. The whole crate was for sale at a low price, but it was clearly all rusted scrap metal and nothing more.

"My understanding is that General LeMay disliked the M1911A1 and preferred revolvers. He was commanding officer of SAC from its inception around 1947 until 1957 and then became Chief of Staff until 1965."...

Actually not so sure about that. LeMay was responsible for the creation of the chopped down 1911s that became known as Officer's Models when produced by Colt. He also had input on the design of the "LeMay 4 Star Model" 1911s produced by the Randall Firearms Co. in the mid 80s. These were among the first workable production stainless steel truly ambidextrous 1911s made.

Below are a couple of links on some of this and Air Force Marksmenship.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histor...ll_history.htm

http://www.veritasgunworks.com/?p=6

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/randall.htm

tipoc

Brad-

Many thanks for these photos. I had not seen the holster in the last photo. The ones I saw were swivel designs. Most of the fellows liked them, because the gun sat easier on a car/truck seat.

I bought my own holsters which were hi-riding Threepersons designs. The Border Patrol style like she has would be preferable to the older issued ones, I think.

You can see ANYTHING on TV, but I noticed a holster like this one worn by a Marine MP once on, "Magnum, PI". But it was for a .45. It may or may not have been used by Marine MP's in real life.

Those really are great pics.

tipoc

Texas Star, the holster in the last photo was being issued when I started in late 1971.
It was made by S&W, and pretty much sucked for a couple of reasons.
I, too, used my own. I had a Safariland high-ride and a Bianchi border patol style. Nobody cared much in those days, lots of guys had their own holsters, especially overseas.

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John

Are you sure they weren't M-10s? During my Army MP service in 1973-76, I only saw female MPs carry newly purchased M-10 M&Ps.

My brother has one that is marked A.F.P.G. and was a 6 inch barrel but has been cut down to a 4 inch. Someone told him the stamping stands for Air Force Precision Grade and some were actualy sent to Smith and cut down to 4 inches. Not sure of a value but it shoots great. Anybody have any info on the A.F.P.G.'s?

J.B.

"Are you sure they weren't M-10s? During my Army MP service in 1973-76, I only saw female MPs carry newly purchased M-10 M&Ps."

I'm 99% sure they were M15s, as I remember commenting to the passenger in my car that the revolvers had target rear sights.

The military kept all sorts of stuff in inventory. The .38 Long Colt cartridges were still on the books as being available in the '70s, though I never saw any.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The initials stand for AIR FORCE PREMIUM GRADE and was used on the guns accurized at the aforementioned facility at Lackland.

Good shooting!

As a lawyer, I'd say that the statute of limitations on theft has probably run out on a 1960s gun by now (not legal advice though).

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Aaron Terry

well mine is a 14-1 afpg (air force premium grade) it is a 4 inch, and i have lettered it, it is a tack driver!

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

Michael,

I am curious, does your 4" 14-1 have a patridge front sight or the Baughman quick-draw ramp?

Roy

I would love to see a picture.I have a 4" barrell with patridge sight
that is new that I bought several years ago and could never figure
out what it went on.All markings are right with a diamond stanp on
the under side and notched for retaining pin.

it has the partrige front sight, im not sure if it was cut down or rebarreled, jinks only said it was sent back to the factory as a 6 inch and changed to a 4 inch, ill try to get some pics up soon, mike

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

Michael Thorton and Nard:

A fellow member of the S&WCA (and USAF veteran) is currently engaged in an effort to have the USAF AFPG Model 14 and Model 15 guns declared as Curios and Relics by the BATFE. He is preparing the necessary paperwork and has amassed quite a bit of supporting data from the USAF Museum and other S&WCA members.

Would you both mind sharing with me the serial numbers of your two revolvers? You can do so by PM or by emailing me off-forum at [email protected] and remove the NOSPAM, of course. The numbers would assist in getting C+R status conferred on these interesting martial guns. (No names are associated with this data.) My own USAF Model 14 AFPG marked revolver and USAF Model 15-2 are included in this Database as well.

By the way the factory re-barreled a number of the AFPG guns. The Member behind this effort owns one of those 4" guns.

Thanks in advance for this information.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF Member

The USAF 15's were indeed aquired by several different LEO agencies. I was at an auction where 12 of these were sold by the Mississippi Game and Fish. All were marked USAF followed by a three digit number. They were rough and went cheap. They supposedly still have some in inventory but I can't verify that.

The sidearm in this photo is probably a Model 10, possibly a Victory model. The first guns used by the Combat Defense Squadron, later the SAC Elite Guard, were chrome plated and had plastic stag grips. Most pictures from the early 60's show lanyard loops on the butt of the the chromed revolvers. By the time I arrived at SAC (1980), the Elite Guard was using the blue Model 15, just like every other Security Police unit in the AF.
I have a set of Ajax Staglite grips for my Model 15-4 that are a very close match to those in the photo.

i have the one nard is talking about, there is only one not two, it will out shoot any thing in the house! send me a e mail and we will talk, still need to take some pics, as i said i have a factory letter ill look it up too, thanks mike

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

Hi Mike:

Your Forum profile does not include an email address, so I sent you a Private Message.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF Member

One of these revolvers is for sale on gunbroker right now. It shows pictures of the DOD box and storage bag along with the pistol. Asking price If I remember is $2500.

The one on GB sure looks like the real deal. $2500 starting price, no bids so far.

Auction number is 134092360.

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

My Uncle is retired USAF and he told me a story about the transition and asked if he could purchase his S&W. He could but the cylinder, barrel & frame were torch cut first. Such a darn waste.