Today 10/1/09, I had an internal lock failure on my S&W 642-2. I was firing my usual 50 rounds per quarter out of this gun. All firing was rapid fire. On my last 2 cylinder loads, I started having trouble pulling the trigger, like getting half way back and then hesitating. Continued firing and checked the gun. Primers set deep. Ejector rod tight. Reloaded. On 2nd or 3rd round rapid fire, the trigger locked up and could not be pulled at all. After several failed pulls, it then operated, hesitaing about half way trough the pull. The next round the gun operated freely. Range session over, the gun operates.

I will send the gun back to S&W. They can either replace the gun with a no-lock or I will sell this gun and replace it with a no lock. This was my concealed carry weapon. It would have gotten me killed when I needed it most. Never again.

Sorry to hear this. Glad no one was hurt.

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Dave

I'll be interested in hearing what the resolution to this is.
I just sent my 340PD in for a crack in the yoke and the lock on it never was right. I'm awaiting the outcome on it.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

Did you pull the sideplate and verify that the lock was self-engaging? How do you know it's the problem?

My question exactly. There are a lot of reasons for a cylinder to freeze up. Last year I purchased a 686SSR that locked up tight after about 50 rounds. It was as if the cylinder was welded to the frame. No amount of fiddling with the gun would work. It wasn't the lock, however, it was a defective rebound spring. Was the flag up on your gun's lock? If not, I suspect it was something else that caused the lockup.

After the gun malfunctioned at the range, the first thing I did was call S&W. I was told it was impossible to have a problem with the lock and that I probably just didn't handle the gun properly.
I then took it apart, the lock had caused the problem. I added a touch of oil and reassembled, next time out it did it again so I performed a lockectomy.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

I fail to understand why S&W does not offer option of no lock for LEO's and why other's do not just take the locks out of the gun.

Currently there is a member here selling a part that fills the hole when removed. removal of lock and installing the "Plug" is simple and only takes a few minutes.

So people fail to understand the effect of lawyers and Congress on manufactures I guess.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

How can this be??????????? Smith & Wesson says there have been no lock problems !!!!

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

Sorry you had that happen to you. Glad you were on a range when it did. Regards 18DAI.

Sort of makes you wonder if someday some enterprising attorney isn't going to try to say their client, or clients next of kin, isn't trying to sue due to the thing working when it was NOT supposed to?

My M60 did the same thing, locking up during rapid fire practice. The flag was at least partially up when my gun locked up, I don't believe that there's a way to tell on a 642 without disassembly. Manipulating the hammer and lock eventually got it to free up again. I called Smith and they insisted that it HAD to be something other than the lock. Not wanting a gap on the left side of the trigger, I popped the sideplate and ground the nub off of the flag. It's worked like a charm ever since.

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"Shall not be infringed"

If it was the lock you wouldn't have been able to shoot it. I bet you had carbon under the extractor or cylinder face. Buy a plug for it and remove the flag and go for it .

My 610 had a 'hitch' in the DA pull since I got it new early this year. It smoothed out a little in time but hot stuff (Double Tap) would lock up the cylinder tight. I notice that since I removed the IL, the hitch seems to be gone.

Did you leave the flag in? I took every thing out after mine malfunctioned, and it is much smoother now. It has one of the best SA breaks I have ever seen on a S&W, close to my Dan Wesson model 15 357 for that matter.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Thanks guys. No. I did not take the side plate off. Now the foolish thing works. Still havent touched the lock. Its like the vibration or rythm of shooting self activated the lock, part ways, then backed off again.

I have been thinking about the plug, but this is a self defense gun and any modification to the gun is could cause serious legal troubles if the gun is ever used in self defense. I own a S&W57 Mountain Gun with lock and it is not a self defense gun. I plan on buying a plug for it and deactivating its lock permanently.

Overall, it seems cheaper to either buy one of the new NO LOCK 642-1 or a pre lock 640. S&W will certainly fix the gun, but I will never have confidence in it again, so I will have to sell it. Ought to get about $350 out of the deal, which takes the sting out of the new gun price. Still, this gun is an EXCELLENT SHOOTER. I hate to part with it, but I have no use for an unreliable gun, which has to be modified in such a way that some courts might consider me liable for making it reliable. YEAH, I do think that unreliability was the goal.

Carried my SP101 tonight and it really weighs me down. Dont like that. How is the 640 +P 38 Special in the weight and bulk department?

I carry a 640 sometimes in a Kramer holster with plus P's. I forget I have it on , but then again I never carried an airweight. I hate the internal locks and I simply can not believe S&W still keeps insisting on using the ridiculous things. It jeopardizes their dependability and it ruins them aesthetically even with a plug. It ruins their guns as far as I am concerned, which is why I have stuck to a collection of LNIB pre locks. Never owned a IL and never will.

Friends don't let Friends do S&W Revolvers with locks.
That said I have two S&W that are IL guns.
One, a 625 that was given to me by a good friends widow and the other, a 3 inch Model 60 with adjustable sights and a full lug that I paid $200.00 for NIB. The guy that bought had read up on the ILs and was scared of the gun. He wanted to sell it and I didn't mind buying it for that much. I'll use it one of these days as trading material.

Rule 303

surveyor47,


The simplest method of correcting a misbehaving internal lock is to remove the locking arm or better known as the "flag". Now on your gun, the flag doesn't pop up above next to the hammer when it's on, so it's hard to see by a simple glance while your shooting it, if it's really the lock acting up or not.

I'd recommend you look at the FAQ's in the smithing section and read how to remove the side plate and take out the offending part. At the most it's a 5 minute job to do. On your gun, the tools required are a screw driver and a paper clip for the coil spring. That's it!

My 442 does not have a working lock, yet the lock cylinder is still in the gun.


If you want all the lock parts out of the gun, the gun could look like this. I put the instructions in the smithing section, towards the bottom of the first page.


Here are what the lock parts look like


Good luck with it. I don't believe S&W will reply the lock is defective on yours....

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NRA Benefactor Member

Been there, done that.
I can't confirm mine was due to the lock and didn't send it to S&W.
I did remove the IL and the problem never happened again. Go figure.

I don't understand... we don't know what caused the OP's problem - yet 'we' jump on the IL. I don't like the IL - it's like those expensive 'Master Locks' - I don't want to pay for them, either. I am a realist - they are here - and there are too many nice current revolvers to not buy them because of a blemish.

When I dissected my 296, and, years later, my 642-2, I noticed a Sahara dry interior - and some darkness on the frame innards (Fine manufacturing/wear dust.). A flush with aerosol RemOil, thank you WallyWorld, over clean paper towels revealed lots of manufacturing crud in both. The residual lube left by the flush was 'too much', so swipes wiped up a bit. It was hard, but I left the OEM springs in both CCWs. Reassembled, with a drop of oil shared on the axle bearing surfaces on the sideplate, they were both unbelieveably smoother afterwards.

I am betting that your 642-2's tempermental nature is due to crud in the lockwork - even the rebound slide and cylinder bolt can be problematic. An easy way to tell if the IL's Achille's heel is defective is completed with the key - can you feel a slight resistance as you turn to lock - or unlock? If it is easy to turn and flops, you have an IL spring missing/broken, the only part known to fail (Any coil spring can fail.). Even though the 642 is an Airweight, it's weight is 25+% greater - and the recoil energy imparted by the hottest +P ammo is well less than half of the amount a .357M imparts on an Al/Sc snubby, much less a 329PD. Even with significant limp-wristing, I don't think the physics would impart enough energy to the IL to jump the spring-loaded lock. Admittedly, IL failures are most common in the 329PD using hot Magnums - and 'limp wristing'. Next most common occurence is after a revolver was dropped. Duh - we all know what an improper hold will do to even a 1911 - and drop one? Yeow!

Let's get some more facts before we barbeque the IL here.

Stainz

Not necessarily "facts" but end-user experience. My 642-2 also bound up after 1.5k-2k dry fires. Upon inspection i saw a sticking point on the farme/trigger area. Internally I cleaned it up as Stainz did, deburred the trigger/frame trigger well and gave a light polish to rebound slide/other bearing surfaces...and with a light relube- all was well. Perfect as matter of fact.
Not being one to leave well enough alone I added the Wolffe spring kit - 8# hammer and 14# rebound. A keeper for sure.
(and then I removed the flag )

Bullseye,
The extractor and cylinder face are virtually carbon free. No residue at all. I dont think that is the issue.

I like the idea and look of the plug and want one for my S&W57 Mountain Gun; however, the 642-2 is a concealed carry weapon and from what Im told, the laws of my state would increase liability if I modify the gun. CCW guns have to be as stock. This is not much of an issue with the S&W57 Mouintain Gun, which is primarily a sporting handgun, very likely to be used on wild hog. A collector I know has offered to sell me a pre-lock 640 +P 38 at a reasonable price and I think that is the best way to address the 642 issue. The 642 will go on consignment after it is repaired. Too bad, because my gun is surprisingly accurate at 25 yards and I really like the gun.

I spoke to S&W this morning. They are going to send me a Fedex shipping label. They told me that the likely cause was a cracked hammer pivot (which makes no sence to me). With any luck, it is part of the frame and will require replacement of the entire frame.

I would like to purchase a plug for my S&W 57 Mountain Gun.

I think this was mentioned earlier, but I'd ask if they can replace it with a no lock. Never hurts to ask and its free.

Stainz,
The 642-2 has been my CCW for 4 years. I take it to the range for 50 rounds of practice 2 or 3 times per year. At most, this gun has had maybe 600-800 rounds through it. It has never had an issue. I have been fairly skeptical of the IL rantings and railings. Most of my revolvers are pre-lock S&W, with a couple of Rugers mixed in and I have regularly shot these guns for 35 years. I have never ever felt a trigger do what I felt yestarday. And like a ghost, the gun now dry fires perfectly. Recoil and rapid fire seem to be the issue. I was really hammering the rounds into the target (with very good accuracy, some of the best I have ever achieved) and then, I cant pull the trigger through. I release the trigger and pull again, but this time the trigger doesnt move at all. I try again and the trigger gets about half way and sticks, I pull hard and it goes through, firing the gun. No more ammo. I took it outside to the rangemaster and it was still stiff half way through the pull and he says "Yep, its the lock. We see that happen all the time. We have security guards in here all the time and their new S&Ws are having all kinds of trouble." I can vouch for the fact that I have seen new S&W 686s lock up due to loose ejector rod, but never a lock. This is the first time I have seen anything like this.

The simple fact is this is another revolver problem blamed on the lock without any evidence whatsoever. Doesn't even sound like a lock problem. The choir nod their heads and say "Amen" without a thought going through the gray matter that's supposed to be inside. Half of them have never looked in a S&W revolver anyway, and haven't a clue how the mechanism or the locks work. At one time there was a lengthy thread on supposed lock failures, most of them as convincing as this one. It's disappeared, hopefully into the trash. I don't like the lock. My three IL revolvers have modified flags, so the things aren't a concern. The mindless herd response to reported lock problems, however unlikely, just gets irritating. Rant over.

S&W just makes me laugh! I told you so!

They have thousands of lock guns out there, If they would admit to a problem, and were forced to recall all these guns to do a reengineering and repair it would bankrupt the company.

So ssshhhh , the hammer pivot is cracked, yea thats what you tell them. I can't locate the pivot in my parts book, call them back I need a parts number. Thanks!

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NRA Benefactor Member

The facts are that I have never encountered a problem like this in over 35 years of regularly shooting pre lock S&W revolvers. Not once. I am not going to void the warranty by opening up this revolver and start fiddling with things. S&W voids warranties on the slimest of excuses and I am not going there.

It occured to me that perhaps I was not fully releasing the trigger, hammering those rounds down range. I made sure at the time that the trigger was fully released.

I checked under the ejector star and it is free of carbon or debris.

The condition seems to start with a high rate of fire, like the vibration is causing the lock to engage and then back off. The feel of the malfunction was exactly the way it feels when the lock is engaged. The trigger simply wont move. When I was able to complete the trigger pull, there was major resistance about half way through and extremely rough spot.

The gun fuctioned flawlessly until the last 3 rounds of the box.

So, I dont think that this is a baseless IL allegation. Perhaps you are a gunsmith. qualified to work on S&W revolvers. I am not. According to S&W, the hammer pivot pin may be cracked (whatever that is). If so, that sounds like a major malfunction, which will hopefully warrant scrapping of the gun. Whatever it is, it is like a ghost that disappers as soon as the gun goes empty.

Tap the gun on the table, to set the locking arm, then dry fire it. Then tap it again upside down and dry fire it.

If it hangs up while you tap it upside down, it's not the pivot.

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NRA Benefactor Member

My first 6.5" 24-3 had been a 20 yr 'safe queen' when I bought it in early '03. I was so happy to find one in obviously ANIB condition, no turn line, even, I didn't look at the finish - paper towels revealed fine rust - WD-40 got most of it - then a coat of wax - better, but still 'flat' - looked like old Parkerizing. Dry firing was fine - live fire, not so good. Three bangs and the trigger would partially pull - then as hard as could be - release, wiggle cylinder, hammer, trigger - fire three to six rounds fine, then hangs up. No rhyme or reason - odd number/even number.

It took total dissection to find the spattered brazing remnants under the hammer, trigger rebound, and cylinder bolt. What kind of QC existed in '83? I removed the material - chiseling and buffing with my Foredom. This was 3/03. I touched my first S&W, a new 625-7 MG in .45 Colt 9/02 - dissecting the lockwork in 10/02 - after a local 'smith's 'trigger job'. It had severe stacking - and a dragging feeling upon trigger release - far worse than it was new a month earlier. He had bent the hammer spring and clipped the rebound spring. A pair of Wolff's springs and I had a PC Shop contender. My brave nature was earned after years of new Rugers - delivered as 'works in progress'. That 24-3 was nearly as nice as the new Heritage 6.5" 24 I had just bought - except for the finish - That Heritage was a beauty.

I've never had an operational fault with my other S&Ws - all '01 and later, save a no-box 625-6 MG from '96 - with more bent/clipped springs. Oh, the 696 had a loose ejector rod, but that's not much. That '83 24-3 - it was easy to see why the guy had it on consignment. Now, for those who say they don't make them like they oce did, I say a hearty 'Amen!' and am most thankful, too. My oldest S&W was a turkey!

I have slowed down on my 'plinking' with that 642 - I know it's ammo count is over 2 - maybe 3 thousand. I also don't trust it to have a long life - and for no other reason than the alloy frame. Mine, a -2, is my pocket protector - and I have confidence that it is in fine shape.

S&W Customer Service is top drawer - they will treat you fairly. To be blunt, I redistributed a 629MG into pieces it wasn't assembled from. Their first question - was I shooting reloads - was answered with a simple reply - their test cartridge was it's only commercial ammo. They picked up the remnants on their dime, tested the metal, and agreed with my, and Hodgdon's, suggested scenario - carbon/lead fouling from shooting Russians & Specials all day had prevented a 300gr LSWC in a Magnum case, with a mild load, from leaving the crimp - a 'stuck' bullet, essentially, and a pressure spike resulted. The worst part? It was all my fault! They replaced the MG with a new 4" 629 for a song - which I am still singing. They will treat you fairly.

Stainz

Surveyor,

Just a few hours ago I picked a NIB, right from the distributor 442-2 with no lock. I have been looking for either a 642 or 442 no lock for over a year.

I simply lucked into this one. I stopped at a gunshop on my way home from skeet shooting. I talked to owner of the small shop, concerning if he had seen any, etc He made several calls to various distributors while I was there. No luck.

I got home and message from dealer on my voice mail, that one distributor had called back and said he had one 442 with no lock. I immediately called dealer back and said order it. Fortunately, it was still there.

This will be my third airweigh no lock. I also have a 642 no lock I bought used from same dealer 2-3 years ago. I have one of first +P versions of the 442 to come out, which were of course no lock.

In short I had time to wait until I got what I - big I here - wanted not what other people said I should be satisfied with. Are the criticisms of the internal lock justified? I don't know, but I don't want to be thinking about the lock jamming, esp at a critical moment.

My advise is get what you need now. If that means modifying lock gun, so be it. But continue to look for what YOU want.

From my experience best to go to small shops where you can talk to the owner. In my experence they will call distributors, often while you are there, and follow up. The employees just blow you off and don't want to bother in larger stores.

Good luck in finding what YOU want.

I took the gun to a local gunsmith today and I think I have to do some more testing before I send it back to S&W. He found something completely unexpected. Checking the barrel and forcing cone, there was extreme leading. The front end of the cylinder had drag marks, where in contact with the barrel. He took a knife and scraped off lead from the front end of the cylinder.

I clean my barrel with a Lewis Lead Remover after every range session and only 50 rounds were fired and the barrel and cylinder were clean as a whistle before shooting. So, there is the possibility that this is an ammo related problem. I have not previously had problems with these bullets which have a Brll hardness of 18, but there is always a first time. All my other guns this ammo is used in are 357s and I have had no problem with excessive leading. I may have to go back to one of my older brands, which are more expensive. I am going to give this gun a good cleaning and try her out with jacketed ammo.

I may have been very wrong in my initial assessment. I am going to have to test with more of the same bullets and see what happens. I will also test with jacketed bullets. Given the exceptional accuracy I was getting, this is a real surprise.

Now this is getting really odd. I checked the other 3 guns I have shot with the same ammo and the bores are LEAD FREE. NONE. NOTHING. To the point that 2 look like I had just cleaned them. Now why would the 642 have such extreme leading? It seems odd that a bullet that shoots better than anything previously fired out of this gun would have both exceptional accuracy (for me) and extreme leading in 1 gun only. Something isnt right. I have to do more testing before I send the gun back to S&W. I dont want to waste their money or give up on what has always seemed a good gun until I know exactly what is wrong.

Have to say it ---------I TOLD YOU SO

Bullseye, you may very well be right. I was looking for trouble at the rear end of the cylinder, not the front end. My smith mentioned that the gun has a lotof end shake.

By the way you told it, I just know from messing with these S&W's since I was 17. I hope it is the ammo. When the lock fail's it is due to a bad spring most of the time (one on the flag) and a burr where it makes with the hammer. Anyway with preasure on the trigger it wouldn't loosen up for you to finish firing it, but carbon under the extractor or lead on the cylinder face will give with preasure. If it is so you will know right off the bat the next time. Most of the time I learn something new every day (don't tell the wife).

Bullseye,
What I dont get is the extreme leading in the 642, but no leading in a 65 or a 586 with the same ammo. The way that 642 looks, you would think I was shooting pure lead at 357 velocities. Instead, it is a slow poke, 158 grain SWC, 358 diameter, 3.2 grains of Bullseye, WSP primer. I have shot this load for years with excellent results. With very hard bullets, I have shot 500 rounds between cleanings and a spotless barrel. This gun leaded up inside of 50 rounds. I dont think that I have ever fired a jacketed bullet through this gun. Time to give this gun a good scrubbin and try her again. I may shoot a box of jacketed bullets just to see what happens.

Best thing to do, Did you have the smith check the yoke?

I LOVE S&W revolvers, but I refuse to own one with an IL. I would consider it for something like a 617 since it would be for plinking only, but I will not waiver on it for a self defense gun. I got into a rather heated discussion with a gun shop commando a few weeks ago because he told me that 95% of the guns out today had IL's and that if I wouldn't buy one with an IL I would quickly run out of guns to buy. I told him his percentage was total BS and that even if it was true, I'd just buy from the other 5%.

S&W has just come out with 642-1s, which has no IL. Get them while you can. I may sell my 642-2 and buy a 642-1.

This is why I won't carry-let alone buy-one with a lock.

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jj

I'll stick with my G29 10 mm for CCW and to heck with a weak 38 spl or a light weight 357 (I had a 13 oz model that killed on both ends) and I can put all 11 in an 8" paper plate at 25 yards and can hunt hogs with it and feel safe. I couldn't with my 642 or the 360Sc I had that is for sure.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

It is a good thing there are folks who really like the IL lock guns. I buy lots of Smiths but never ones with IL's. I am glad to know that by not buying IL Smiths that I am leaving them for the IL fans.

Make's very good sense to me. Thanks for leaving them for us.

My IL guns are all range guns and not used for CCW, HD or such and kept locked in the gun safe. My PD/SD guns are a G-29 for CCWPD and and the HD gun is a Para 14 + 1 Gun Rights model in the bedroom.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I agree with Stainz, we are jumping on the IL BEFORE it has been proven the culprit. If the IL was at fault, the OP would'nt have been able to resume firing.

This is why I don't touch the internal lock models. I sure hear a lot of first-hand stories about it for something that happens "rarely."

Maybe the OP should edit the thread title (or ask a moderator to do it) so as to not blame the IL.

People get heated up enough about this subject around here anyway, seems like there's no reason to throw fuel on the fire by blaming the lock for this problem.

Recently my 637-2 Airweight's firing pin decided to stop striking primers after several thousand rounds fired (stopped counting after 2,000). I described the situation on this and other sites, and got many responses blaming the S&W lock. I sent it off to S&W and now have it back. They replaced the entire frame because the firing pin bushing had failed. Replacing the frame, of course, also replaced the serial number, with all that entails under federal law.

My point is this: Everyone who said my problem was caused by the internal lock was wrong. Repeat after me: The internet is the ultimate source of Truth.

Cordially, Jack

Surveyor47:

I'm a few days late reading your 10-2 msg., but here's a thought about your leading problem. Very hard bullets may be a curse, rather than a blessing, in some guns. If your 642's barrel groove diameter is even 1/000ths oversize, or the bullets 1/000ths undersize, you may be getting flame cutting on the side of the bullet. The bullet base should obdurate(sp?) slightly to fill the bore. If too hard to do so, hot gas may melt some lead on the bullet's side while going down the barrel; therefore, leading.

I cast medium hard/soft bullets (don't know the Brinell hardness) and NEVER get undue leading regardless of velocity. I also am sure to measure the cylinder throats on EVERY revolver & size at least 1/000th larger.

Just a thought for you to consider.

H-F Hank
NRA Bene
USAF Vet

+1

I also would look at the relationship between bullet/throat diameter.

Pete

Right now, I simply dont know if there is something wrong with the gun or not. I gave it a good cleaning yestarday, along with my other 357s. Only a small amount of lead in the other guns, near the forcing cone. I plan on shooting the gun fairly extensively in order to narrow down what is wrong.

A local bullet caster used to make an extremely hard synthetic lube bullet that would not lead for 500 rounds+. He ended up with severe lead poisioning and I have been unable to get his bullets since. Never had any problem with his bullets.

I have recently purchased bullets recently from Missouri Bullet Co., with a Brll Hardness of 18 and Bullseye Bullet Co. I have encountered no problem with either bullet in my 357s, with the same load that had a problem in the 642, 3.2 grains of Bullseye and a 158 grains hard cast bullet, 358 diameter. I have noticed that the 357 chambers tend to have a residue ring where 38 cases have been used, a bit more than before , requiring more scrubbing.

One poster mentioned that the hammer pivot pin on his gun was broken, requiring replacement of the frame. If I were only so lucky, I would specifiy replacement with a NO LOCK 642-1. S&W mentioned that failure of the hammer pivot pin was far more likely than IL failure. If these guns are prone to breakage of such a crucial part, that opens another whole can of worms.

I prematurely jumped onto the IL feature as the probable cause of malfunction. I am wondering if there arent additional problems with this model that have not come to the forefront, that the IL is masking these problems and catching the blame? Moreover, the IL is just one more thing to go wrong.

I have to agree that I feel more comfortable with a pre-lock model for CCW.

Let me share my thoughts on the 642. I'm an average size guy in a hot climate and a big auto just doesn't work for me. I also don't get to practice drills like clearing etc. as you really should. I decided to use 642's for everything, belt or pocket carry, truck and home. I have 4, two are IL and two not. They all go to the range now and then although I must confess I can't keep track of which one is going when. None have ever as much as burped so they're going to be my arsenal for a long time to come. At home there is some backup of course.

To me serious gunsmithing was changing out the grips for Spegel finger combats. I know nothing about loads, grains, diameters, hardness or any of that stuff and am happy to keep it that way. Ammo is what's cheapest at the store and HYRA-SHOK JHP for carry.

What I'm saying is don't sell that 642 short. Start a thread on it in the CCW forum and you'll get pages of happy owners.

Bob