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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:34 PM
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Default Diplomatic security service 19's

Any former Diplomatic security service officers here?

What dash number model 19's did you use? I've seen 19-5 2.5 and 4" barrels. Most of those were in a matt black. I also have seen 4" matt black 19-7's, supposedly former DSS guns. Were any of these model 19's traditional blue, or were they all in a matt finish?

I read where the USMC also had ordered a large number of model 19's, to use for guarding embassies. Any details on those model 19's?

Anyone lettered their matt black model 19?

Regards 18DAI.
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Old 11-03-2009, 12:12 PM
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Default Have one of those

I bought a matte black 19-5 with 2.5 inch barrel about a year ago. It was from a collection and was new and unfired in the box. It came with Pachmeyer rubber grips. I presume it was a Diplomatic Security Service gun, or possibly Connecticut State Police, based on what I read in the SCSW. I suppose I should get a letter from S&W on this, but haven't done that yet.

I put some Ahrends grips on it for the photos, but don't intend to fire the gun. The second photo shows it next to a blue 19-5 for contrast.



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Old 11-03-2009, 03:15 PM
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Default DSS Mod 19s

I am a current DSS S/A, have been for the last 23 years. When I was issued mine back in 1986 it was the matt blue variety, sorry don't know the dash number and it has long since been replaced by our issued Sig Sauers many years ago. In our safe at the Embassy that I am current serving at we also have a polished blue Mod 19 2.5" (pinned and recessed, but don't know the dash number off the top of my head) and a Mod 66-1 (I believe maybe even a no dash) 2.5". these weapons are completely out of service domestically, the only place you will find them still in our inventories is overseas. The Department lets us keep them on the books, if we sent them back they would go into a vault for eventual disposal, so it is better to keep them "hidden" out in the field. Regards 2Guns
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Old 11-04-2009, 01:13 PM
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Beautiful 19-5 pogo2. Thanks for sharing the pics.

Thanks for the info 2Guns. Are those snubbies in the vault still used on or off duty? Regards 18DAI.
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:14 PM
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Default DSS 19's

Hi 18DAI

I had both 2.5 and 4 inch. The 2.5 was gloss and I think it was a dash 4. The 4 inch was matte and I think it as a dash 5. This was in the 87 to 89 time frame. The 2.5's were mostly for RSO's and the Marines got the 4 inchers starting in about Summer of 87.

Butler
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:38 AM
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What is RSO, and which ammo was issued? Were Marines, in particuar, provided govt. issue .38 ball?

Thanks,

T-Star
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:16 AM
T. McIntyre T. McIntyre is offline
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RSO= Regional security officer

Can not help on type of ammo issued.
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:18 PM
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When I first started with DSS in 1986, we carried 110 gr +p .38 special rounds in the 2.5" Mod 19. At some point we stopped using those light rounds and we were issued 125 gr Nyclad rounds, which the agency used until the Mod 19s were phased out in favor of the Sig Sauer P228 9 mm. I for one was glad we made the switch as the ammo had a bad tendency to "spit" unburnt powder and had nasty habit of leaving grains under the ejection star that could bind up your weapon.

The MSGs at our Embassies carried the same rounds in their State issued 4" Mod 19s. Although at most Posts back in those days the MSGs also had access to 2.5" Mod 19 to carry when they were doing plain clothes hotel floor security for Cabinet level VIP visits.

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Old 11-06-2009, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Guns View Post
.... I for one was glad we made the switch as the ammo had a bad tendency to "spit" unburnt powder and had nasty habit of leaving grains under the ejection star that could bind up your weapon....
2Guns,

Great info from your posts. Did both .38 loads leave the same unburnt grains under the star?

Thanks,
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:35 PM
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The 125 gr. Nyclads gave good service, it was the 110 gr +p that left the unburnt powder under the star. I love Smiths, but for a duty weapon we are better served carrying the Sig. More magazine capacity and ammo interchangebility with our subguns. I would prefer to carry a 1911 .45, but would be very happy with a Glock, Sig, or Springfield Armory polymer gun, but neither option is likely to happen anytime soon. Regards 2Guns
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:03 PM
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Default When did USMC Embassy Duty carry 357's?

When I was in in the mid 1980's, Marines assigned to embassy duty were issued pencil-barrel 4" Model 10's with FMJ .38 special ammo.
(I didn't serve on embassy duty, but several guys came to my unit from their time on embassy duty).
I also know they had Ruger Mini-14's in the inventory as well.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:35 PM
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Some Marine embassy guards also had Ruger .38's. I think the Service-Six.

Apparently, it depended on the embassy what was in their inventory.
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Old 11-07-2009, 10:46 PM
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Default MSGs

Through the 70s, MSGs carried clapped-out Smith Victory Models. Circa 1980, State bought the Ruger Service Six for MSGs, long after my time in an embassy.

In the 60s we were issued M41 ball (130 gr RNJ bullet at maybe 800 fps if the barrel-cylinder gap on your Victory Model wasn't too great). For practice we were issued 148 gr flatnose wadcutter.

When assigned to personal security details for upper echelon FSOs taking road trips into the bush, or for visiting VIPs, I would carry one of the embassy's commercial Model 10s, 4" pencil barrel, round butt (still my favorite revolver). This was the 60s, so M41 ball was as good as anything available. Occasionally I would carry a personal 1911 (if no one was checking), but still with ball ammo.

In 1968 I worked a trip with VP Humphrey -- the SS agent assigned to supervise the two Marines aboard was a field guy attached for the trip, not VP detail. He carried a Smith 39. More ball ammo!

Joe W
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then-Sgt, Addis Ababa 1966-68
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:31 PM
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When I was getting out of the service in '68 I had an inquiry from DSS as to whether I was interested in a job there. Didn't follow up on it but always wondered if I would have liked it. Wound up going with another agency, so my GI time counted towards retirement after all. Just one of those forks in the road...
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:55 PM
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Default Diplomatic security service 19's

The Last Night Standing

It was in the summer of 1987. I was in MSG school in the fall of 86 and qualified with a M10, some qualed with Rugers. DOS bought the 4 inchers in the spring of 87, the school got them first and then they trickled out to post. I was in Sri Lanka and we got ours late summer 87. When I went to my 2nd post Alexandra, Egypt in 88 I found the peverous DetCmdr there had not issued them and the Marines were still carring M10s and Rugers. I issued them right away.

Butler
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:02 AM
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2 Guns was my RSO in Stockholm 1994-95. We carried the 19-5s that were specially made for the US Department of State for the DSS Agents and the Marines. They had a Service Blue (or matte in the 2-1/2 inch guns), black sights and a Round Butt.

We were issued (and practiced with) the Federal 125gr +P NYCLAD hollow-point. That round would do about 925-950 fps out of the 4-inch barrel.

The guns were very nice. We expended a considerable amount of ammunition to practice at the FBI Academy. I believe we shot about 2500-3000 rounds per MSG student.

I had owned 3 Model 19s prior to my first enlistment in 1990, so they felt like an old friend. Many of the students felt underarmed with the Model 19s. I didn't. Many of our Instructor Advisors were taught at Gunsite in the use of the Combat Magnum. I was the Class 3-93 Top Shooter.

2 Guns got my beloved 4-inch Model 25-5 when he rotated back home in early 1995. It's the one he had customized.

Hope all is well, Ed!

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Old 07-18-2015, 12:44 PM
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I have 1 of those 2.5" DSS 19's - it's my everyday carry gun. It is a fine shooter.
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Old 07-18-2015, 04:14 PM
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Default I have one too

Not 100% but not too bad for $250.



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Old 07-19-2015, 12:40 AM
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WCCPHD,

AYY-AYZ Serial Prefix? If so, it's a DSS gun. As I stated before, the RSOs and Det Commanders would carry these while the rest of us in uniform carried the 4-inch guns.

In China, I carried my issue Model 19 (with Hogue R/B Monogrips) in my personally-owned Kramer Michigan State Police Paddle and on one of his horsehide belts. Safariland COMP III speedloaders were carried in my strong side sport coat/suit coat outside pocket. Never felt under-armed with it.

Wish Federal would still make the 125gr NYCLAD +P (the same bullet they use in the standard pressure Premium load). The +Ps we used for duty were very accurate in those guns and had some punch.

What do you have as your load? I like today's Golden Saber +P in the Special. Wonderful round.
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Old 07-19-2015, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
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WCCPHD,

AYY-AYZ Serial Prefix? If so, it's a DSS gun. As I stated before, the RSOs and Det Commanders would carry these while the rest of us in uniform carried the 4-inch guns.

In China, I carried my issue Model 19 (with Hogue R/B Monogrips) in my personally-owned Kramer Michigan State Police Paddle and on one of his horsehide belts. Safariland COMP III speedloaders were carried in my strong side sport coat/suit coat outside pocket. Never felt under-armed with it.

Wish Federal would still make the 125gr NYCLAD +P (the same bullet they use in the standard pressure Premium load). The +Ps we used for duty were very accurate in those guns and had some punch.

What do you have as your load? I like today's Golden Saber +P in the Special. Wonderful round.

Serial number begins with "ANP." If S&W numbered them in order then this would have been an earlier one. Although I cannot find it now, I seem to remember a thread speaking to several "runs" of them.

As far as loads, unfortunately like many of my guns, this one has never been fired since I acquired it.

A friend of mine recently found one that is as close to NIB as I have ever seen. He had to pay more but it is absolutely beautiful.
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Old 07-19-2015, 11:38 AM
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They had 19-2s, 19-3s, 19-4s, and 19-5s. Some were traded in on the Sigs, and some were purchased by some agents before that was stopped in the 90's. There were some in the K serial number ranges, but most were ANxxxxx - AYxxxxx range. The earlier guns were polished blue.

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Old 07-19-2015, 12:40 PM
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My RSO in Stockholm (1994-95) is 2Guns. I guess DSS Agents could buy some of the guns when the guns were retired. I wish I could get my hands on a 4-inch Model 19-5 like I carried on Post.

Great thread BTW!
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtoppcop View Post
WCCPHD,

AYY-AYZ Serial Prefix? If so, it's a DSS gun. As I stated before, the RSOs and Det Commanders would carry these while the rest of us in uniform carried the 4-inch guns.

In China, I carried my issue Model 19 (with Hogue R/B Monogrips) in my personally-owned Kramer Michigan State Police Paddle and on one of his horsehide belts. Safariland COMP III speedloaders were carried in my strong side sport coat/suit coat outside pocket. Never felt under-armed with it.

Wish Federal would still make the 125gr NYCLAD +P (the same bullet they use in the standard pressure Premium load). The +Ps we used for duty were very accurate in those guns and had some punch.

What do you have as your load? I like today's Golden Saber +P in the Special. Wonderful round.
That fits - mine is an AYY. I use 135gr 357 SB. I changed grips and have a Pachmayr Compact Professional grip on it now.
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:24 PM
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From what I can gather these 19's were probably near the last gasp of the revolvers life as a first line service sidearm. Does any one here know what the last standard issue federal agency revolver was? What gun and what agency?
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:56 PM
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Major D,

I think DSS Uniformed guys at the CONUS-based agencies still have revolvers.

If not, I would hazard a guess that US Customs with their CS-1 Model 686s would be one of the last.

The Marine Security Guards started rotating out the Model 19-5s in 1998-99. Many of these guns still exist in the RSO inventories at our missions overseas.
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Old 08-04-2018, 01:58 PM
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Yeah, I know....Holy Thread Resurrection, Batman! 2 years old?
But still, I have a question for the DSS cognoscenti out there. What was the exact finish called on these m19's? Was it just a typical matt blue finish, did it have a particular name?

Just curious because I'm starting to start my skulking around to find one, and if the finish is worn (likely for a revolver this old), I'd like to get it refinished but (if possible) with the exact same factory finish.

Thanks all!
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Old 08-05-2018, 09:15 AM
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Hello, Good Luck trying to find one of the DSS M-19's ! I've noted a few varying totals on them, but I haven't observed any firm, conclusive data as to exactly how many were mfg'd. My example is the 4" type, polished blue finish, & all correct w/ original box. According to an E-Mail from S&W, it was 1 of 680 or so pieces mfg'd for the U.S. Dept. of State in March of 1988. You should initiate a search here in the both the Forum & the Web, in which you should come up with numerous threads. Good Luck,

Best, dpast32
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Old 08-05-2018, 11:02 AM
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You might take a look at the S&W site and check out the matte blue finish.

I had a Combat Action Package done on my Model 19, 4 or 5 years ago, and I believe the finish to be as close as it will come to the DSS models. Below is the photo and the action work is outstanding to boot.
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Old 08-05-2018, 11:16 AM
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Several years ago I sold a 19-5 matte black Snubby on here for about $700. ? I have been meaning to look up that thread. I buy, sell trade (a lot) more than I like to admit.

That is the only gun that I really want back. Well that and a single shot Henry Bolt Action that came with a matching stainless scope. I never see either.

PS I found the thread. And now I remember that I traded it for a L/Nib Model 48. 22mag is not my thing. DOH!!


GONE. WTT Unusual 19-5, 2.5 inch Matte Black Finish
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Old 08-05-2018, 11:48 AM
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Yeah, I know....Holy Thread Resurrection, Batman! 2 years old?
But still, I have a question for the DSS cognoscenti out there. What was the exact finish called on these m19's? Was it just a typical matt blue finish, did it have a particular name?

Just curious because I'm starting to start my skulking around to find one, and if the finish is worn (likely for a revolver this old), I'd like to get it refinished but (if possible) with the exact same factory finish.

Thanks all!
I'm not sure what S&W called the finish but I believe its the same finish as on the Model 36-6 guns.







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Old 08-05-2018, 11:52 AM
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Did the DSS 19’s have any unique roll-markings or other stampings ?
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:38 PM
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Did the DSS 19ís have any unique roll-markings or other stampings ?
Nothing extra over and above a run of the mill 19-5. The differences were the blackened finish and the 2.5 inch guns came from the factory with the Pachmayr Compac Pro grips that are shown on my gun above. I have never seen a four inch so I don't know about those.

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Old 08-05-2018, 03:11 PM
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19-5 was called for under the DSS contract. Matte 2.5” no agency engravings....
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Old 08-05-2018, 11:52 PM
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Thanks for the answers, fellas. Hopefully I can locate one in the next several months. Maybe it'll be a Christmas present... one can only hope!
LOL!
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:53 AM
Jimmy4570 Jimmy4570 is offline
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I'm a currently serving RSO in Africa and am just dejected over DS's disposal of all those 2 1/2" and 4" model 19s. Despite having put tens of thousands of rounds through the three different SIGs I've been issued over the past 18 years along with the Glock 19 and Beretta 92 I can still pick up one of those revolvers and even the Ruger SP-101s we used to have in the inventory and hit faster and more accurately with them, or even the 1911 or Browning Hi Power or CZ-75. I've always found it odd and sad that DS never fielded any .357 magnum ammunition but for a .38 the old Federal Nyclad wasn't bad. Believe me I'd much rather carry a 4" 19 than the 229R I currently carry daily...
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:47 AM
JohnRippert JohnRippert is offline
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I kinda like zombie threads myself.

A couple years ago I saw a 4inch RB model 19-5 on Gunbroker and won it with the only bid. It cost me right around $500 shipped IIRC. Several months ago I decided to letter it after one of the members here said that the serial number was in the range for a DSS gun. When I got the letter in sure enough it is a State Department gun.

Polished blue, which is original and sweet RB target grips, which I am sure are not original. At some point one of the previous owners had or did some work on it. The strain screw was shortened and polished. Also, the mainspring was shaved on both sides. I ordered replacements but have not installed them.


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Old 08-06-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by WCCPHD View Post
I'm not sure what S&W called the finish but I believe its the same finish as on the Model 36-6 guns.








How does one get drool out of a keyboard, exactly?

Last edited by TexasRaider; 08-06-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:43 PM
vegasgunhand vegasgunhand is offline
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I teach in the State Departments Global Anti-Terrorism Assistance Program. I was in an Embassy in North Africa a couple of years ago, and the DSS Agents still had two matte finished Model 19's in their inventory. I was quite surprised to see them there.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:59 PM
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How does one get drool out of a keyboard, exactly?
Q-Tips!!!! ....the small ones.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:09 PM
Jimmy4570 Jimmy4570 is offline
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The Smiths hearken back to the years when DS had gunsmiths instead of "armorers", agents who were assigned positions of responsibility to make decisions rather than committees and boards stuffed with people to render "reviews". Days when agents could be found carrying real guns of various sorts- 1911s, Hi-Powers, .44, .45 and .357 revolvers. Now, we're all carrying platforms- and not very cool, pretty or any more efficient ones- chambered in the latest sow's ear turned silk purse... So many people have drunk the Kool-Aid...
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:56 PM
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In 1975, the president of France visited Houston, Tx and stayed at a private residence that backed up to a golf course in a very affluent part of the city. As an HPD officer I was offered PAID OVERTIME, unheard of at that time, to guard the president. I was stationed on the perimeter of the golf course and about 0300 the fog rolled in. You could not see 20 feet in front of you. At that point the DS officers got very nervous and joined us on the perimeter. These officers were plain clothes people and the one with me was a gun guy and we got to talking about duty weapons. He stated he was carrying an issue S&W m 19 with a 2 1/2 " barrel and when he inquired as to what I was carrying, I replied a S&W M57 with two extra speed loaders. I don't recall his name but he stated to me that he wished he could carry something that big and bad. He was a decent guy for a FED and we had a nice conversation. At 0700, I went home and the president of France slept well. Everyone was happy, especially me, with the nice overtime check.
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  #42  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:54 AM
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... So many people have drunk the Kool-Aid...
I hear ya'. I'm a bit of a Luddite in that I just can't get on the poly/striker bandwagon. If it ain't got a hammer, it ain't a gun.

I love the old Smith and Colt wheelguns, but I will happily park those in the safe and carry a '98 era P226 in .357 Sig. Is it bright blue with Goncalo Alves grips? No, but it does have a deadly serious, no-nonsense aura and throws 200% more rounds downfield that are the near mirror image of the 125 gr. SJHP's that reside in my retired Texas Highway Patrol m28.

Sadly, I've gotten old enough that a 1998 P226 *is* now 'Old School'. That's fine, old school is the best school...

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Old 08-08-2018, 06:21 PM
RWJ RWJ is online now
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WCCPHD,

Wish Federal would still make the 125gr NYCLAD +P (the same bullet they use in the standard pressure Premium load). The +Ps we used for duty were very accurate in those guns and had some punch.

Just some info on those Federal 125Gr +P Nyclad rounds used by Dept of State from Dec 1993:


M/V (7" test bbl.) : 1194-1245/1218 avg
M/V (2.5" vented): 896-984/928 avg
CUP range 18500-19900
50yd 5 shot group (test bbl): 2.384
Gel test : 5.5"-7.5", 6.35 avg.
Expansion: .667, .677, .700, .707, .708


FWIW


RWJ
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