I have been shooting S&W revolvers since 1970, my first a 6.5" Mod 29.

I had a Mod 41 in 1968 for NRA Bulls Eye Matches...

But back to N Frames....

Since the 44 mag was "invented" why still make 44 Specials???

Now I have shot a BUNCH of 44 Special power loads in my 44 Mags...
MANY with Special brass with no problems, and many in Mag brass at 44 Special power levels...

So why would anyone buy a N frame in 44 Special, when a 44 Mag can do anything that a 44 Special can do AND use 44 mags when needed???

Then there is the 41 Mag... Now I am an Elmer Keithite of the Highest order, but the 41 Mag [and I had and used a Mod 58 for a foul weather work gun], was a TOTAL waste of the N Frame...

What was needed, and would have been better was proper Police loads for the 44 Mag...

I have no problems with 357 Mags in the N Frame, and I am not a 357 Mag kind of guy...

I think the N Frame 45 ACP revolvers are GREAT. And I used one for a work gun for several years...
I have a 325 NG next to me as I type this...

Like wise I think the 45 Colt N Frames are good for a fella that is a Big Colt SAA shooter, and wants a DA Revolver in the same calibre....

If I was President of S&W, there would never have been a 41 Mag, and no 44 Specials after the intoduction of the 44 Mag...

There would not be any "locks" either....

The jeep guys have a saying...
"Its a jeep thing, you wouldnt understand."
Its kinda like that with .44 specials.
I have a .44 special pocket gun, .44 magnum would have added size and weight.
Some people just prefer .44 special, and want the pistol chambered for that cartridge.
As to the .41 mag, the police departments had the choice in a a lighter duty load and a heavy hunting load... and a LOT of the time they chose the hunting load... with the greater variety of ammo for the .44 magnum, you think they would have made the right choice?
Hmmmm... lighter loaded .44 magnum, sounds like .44 special to me.
Issue the officers .44 specials so they couldnt load up the heavy hunting magnum loads... Sounds like a good usage for an N frame chambered in .44 special to me.


Jim

Well, everyone has an opinion and a right to have one too! Im just very glad you are not president of S&W or Ruger as well.

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Stay safe people!

Using that theory of logic....
Why make a .38 special after the .357 was invented ?

My guess is they "supplement" rather than "supplant" eachother.
Greater minds than mine will undoubtedly explain this theory.
Cheers...

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

The .41 Mag: if only we could do it over | Guns Magazine | Find Articles at BNET

Hmmm, maybe if the 44mag didn't have such a "cult following" it would have gone by the wayside.

bob

Do I smell an opinion here..?? After all, they are like ......... and they all stink, right?? Maybe.... I'm not a .41 mag fan or a .44 special fan necessarily, BUT, what if your dad or favorite uncle or Grandfather had shot one and fed you or others? Or made some great shots that the fellas around town still talked about? Or used it like some old beat-up tool and it worked every time-all the time?? My guess is that your opinion would be different. Thank you for making me remember my uncle and his showing me his beat-up old Ruger Blackhawk in .41 mag and that very cool cowboy holster rig he wore. Sprefix

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Go big or stay home

Well we all know what they say about variety... spice and life. The same is true of even things as important as handguns and institutions as important as S&W. Sincerely. brucev.

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<><

The chambering of an N frame or any other hand gun is immaterial. As long as there is a market for that chambering, there is no waste where the purchaser is concerned. Myself, I favor the 10.5 Montenegrin.
Dan

41 Mag proves there is a kind and loving god.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

Concerning the .41 Magnum, the best analysis I ever read proclaimed it as "The only revolver you'd ever need, if you could only have one. But if you can have more than one, it does nothing that others can't do as well or better." It rivals the .44 Magnum as a hunting sidearm, without all the flash, bang, and recoil, while providing a larger caliber than the .357 Magnum.

And as far as the .44 Special, I own a couple of N frames (M624s in 4" and 6-1/2", and a 6-1/2" M24), and they are nice, accurate target shooters that could easily be used for hunting (do you REALLY think it takes a .44 Magnum to harvest a mule deer?). What makes the .44 Special is the history, and the fact that there are 18oz (M396 Mountain Lite) and 18-1/2oz (M296) .44 Special revolvers available that shoot rather well. Are there any 18oz revolvers in .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .45ACP, or .41 Magnum? I don't think so.

And finally, can anybody show me a substantive performance difference between the .44 Special and the .45ACP? I can easily handload the .44 Special to match or exceed the performance of a .45ACP, without having to crawl around searching for the brass after a day at the range.

The .44 Special can do 99% of what I need done with a handgun. That it dates back to 1907 just adds flavor. If I need 15+1 rounds in a handgun (I guess that's the other 1% of what I need done), then the 9mm Luger is there, and it dates back to 1902!

Being a "Certified Old Fart", I was THERE with the .44 Special and later the .44 Magnum. I have several copies of both. In fact, just recently, I bought both the new Ruger .44 Lipsey Special Flattop and a Ruger 50th
Anniversary .44 Magnum.

The S&W Model 624 (I have a Model 24 6½", a 4" 624 and a 6½" 624) is a half pound lighter than a comparable Model 29 or 629. The extra weight is really needed in the heavier loaded .44 Magnum. When you carry a revolver all day, the lighter weight (but still perfectly controllable) .44 Special is a definite advantage. On the other hand, the 629 works quite well when big game is the target.

Today, it's simply, "Horses for courses". There is absolutely NOTHING better than an appropriately loaded .44 Special when woods rambling (unless you are in Big Bear areas). I have taken a goodly number of edible small game with the .44 Special (targets of opportunity) and used appropriately, there is little meat damage, yet instant stoppers regarding the feared RABBIT. There is little damage with a shot through the "slats" and that is a high percentage shot. On the other hand, occasionally one meets unsavory characters in the wilds and the .44 Special is quite comforting when that occurs. There is NO better self defense load than a good Keith bullet ahead of 7.5 grs of Unique (the famed "Skeeter" load).

I have done extensive back packing in areas where you COULD stumble onto a marijuana patch and that can be BAD business. Naturally, anyone with any sense will try to avoid such areas but since they are "secret" it can be accidental.

The .44 Special has a lot of that "just enough" character to make it a viable choice of caliber. Used in a "made for the cartridge" revolver, it can be a "perfect packing pistol" (thanks, John Taffin, for that phrase) compared to the considerably heavier .44 Magnums.

Simply put, you just cannot beat a 4" Model 624 or a 4 3/4"-5½" Single Action when "packing"...

There are certainly other viable choices, but for me, the .44 Special is the best of all.

Dale53

If they didn't keep selling them why would S&W and Ruger keep re-introducing them? To make money, why else. And people keep buying them.

One of my favorite Smith's is my 24-3 3".

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

good point...add to it...why make a 44 or 460 after the 500 came out?personally i LOVE a 41 mag.

I just bought a 44 Special. A 696 in L-frame. IF one wants a big dia.,fast heavy bullet in a smaller revolver frame this is the need for a .44 Special. You can say that about a lot of calibers. A need for .300 RUM when you have a 300 Weatherby,etc,etc. Gun makers do this or they would die on the vine. Do we really need a GMC truck when the Chevie truck is exactly the same,etc,etc

Smith & L/H used to make a 3" 24/624. Tapered bbl, shorter cylinder, and round butt features made it a neat "little" carry gun compared to the mighty mag. You can load those 44's with a 240 grain bullet at 11-1200 fps. I really don't need the recoil of magnum loads out of a gun that small, since you could get all the performance you needed in a special. Not to mention the cool L frames they made.

I am suddenly consumed with a burning desire for an N frame chambered for .41 special .

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Idaho , Elmer and Milt

hahahahahahhaha LOL LMAO!!!!

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Go big or stay home

Thank you. My 6" 57 has 37 deer to it's name over the years. They did not seem to notice the difference between a .429 or a true .410 bullet. I'll take it over a .44 or .357 mag any day of the week for a do everything caliber!

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V/R
Roger / SG

I don't presently own a .41 magnum, just never been a fan myself
but, I'm not offended if somebody does like it. Heck I liked the
.357 maximum and look what happened to it. Just be thankful there
is a following for a given caliber.

If there HAD been a .41 Special, S&W would have sold more Model 58's to police departments.

Well... you CAN buy the brass and load your own .41 special
RugerForum.com :: View topic - Starline .41 special brass F/S


Jim

The .41 Magnum guns and cartridge WAS NOT what the proponents of it had in mind at the time.

Skeeter Skelton discussed it several times. What he and his cohorts proposed was their vision of the ideal law enforcement gun and cartridge, a .40-.41 caliber cartridge with a 200-ish grain bullet at about .38 Special velocities (850 fps). It would be easy to handle compared to the .357 and .44 Mags, with none of the muzzle blast and racket. They wanted a bigger, heavier bullet than the .38 to give better penetration and a bigger wound.

Keep in mind that in the early 1960's, when this happened, handgun bullets that expanded reliably on people-size targets were practically unknown.

The handgun they wanted was also not what they got. What was proposed was a new frame size, between the K and N frames, to keep grip size and trigger reach and gun weight manageable. I believe the current L frame was the size of revolver they had in mind.

Skelton said that they were somewhat naive about the handgun industry's, particularly S&W who dominated the police gun market, ability and willingness to develop, manufacture and sell a brand new frame that depended on a brand new cartridge.

S&W obviously didn't see the police market there to justify the massive (at the time) financial investment. So, they utilized an exisiting gun (the Model 29, basically) and decided to offer a true 'magnum' loading to broaden the potential appeal of the new gun to sportsmen as a hunting arm.

Without the heavy .41 Mag hunting loading and a lead bullet load 100 fps slower, the M-58 could have been made with a shorter, lighter cylinder and a slender .38-44 profile barrel, while the M-57 could have had the tapered 1950 Target barrel. The guns could have weighed in very managably, then. It may have then been the best cop holster gun and ammo combination available at the time, and the designation of ".41 Special" would have helped in the politically squeemish climate of the time.

I agree, new more suited cartridge loadings for existing rounds would have been as good or better than what happened, and cheaper and easier to boot, as an alternative to the new .41 Magnum. Skelton wanted a commercial loading of his .44 Special, a 250 grain SWC at about 900 fps, or the regular manufacture of double action revolvers chambered in .45 Colt. Handloaders and gun buffs could make their own, but law enforcement needs to be able to buy suitable commercially manufactured ammunition.

I think it was a case of S&W marketing types missing the boat.

As for why keep the .44 Special, if you don't understand, we can't tell you!

Without trying to turn this into a 41 vs 44 kind of discussion, I must say, the 41 mag is my sentimental favorite cartridge. I bought one when my wife and I first got married. I have since traded it and a few others off, only to come back to it again. I also have had numerous 44's over the years. Personally, I think the 41 is the perfect fit for the n frame flatform. This is not to say that 44's don't work well in them, they do. The 41 just seems just right for it. I now have a 657-3 41 with a 6" barrel, and I like it a lot. wyatte

Of all the various calibers available, the 44 special is my favorite. I totally hate the 44 mag but feels that it has it's place. I do own a Ruger SBH, but have sold all the M29 I have ever owned. I just have no use for them.

I have 2 Colt SAAs in 45 and several in 44. But I also have a 625 in the same caliber. I shoot and carry both on occasion. Have a M22, a M21, a M57. samo, samo.



My normal carry gun is??????????? suprise, a 44 special.

See I don't think anyone needs a 44mag.

But it is like the feller sez, everyone has one and most of them stink

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Slim, U.S. Army, Ret.

I understand that it is not advisable to shoot .44 special cartridges in a .44 magnum as it can cause leading in the cylinder and throat due to the shorter cartridge length. Similarly, to load .44 magnum cartridges with .44 special loads leaves a lot of empty space in the cartridge. Anyway, I am a happy .44 special shooter with a 624.

Other than the ability to carry a lighter gun, some people choose the .44 Special because of the data below, courtesy of Chuck Hawks:

Caliber (Bullet Weight / Velocity)
.44 Spec. (240 at 750) ----- 4.5 Ft. lbs. Recoil Energy
.44 Mag. (240 at 1450)----- 22.5 Ft. lbs. Recoil Energy

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Ignored facts still exist.

Yeah, that is what this one is all about, but in the spirit of collegiality with fellow stirers-of-the-pot, I add my .02 in defense of both the 1950 Target .44 Special (with it's beautiful, properly tapered barrel) and Model 57 .41 Magnum (one of the nicest, if not actually the nicest shooting machine S&W has ever built).

Anyone who would not like an S&W .44 Special would probably sell his own mother for thirty sausages! And anyone who berates the Model 57, well...

(BTW, .45 ACP cartridges are properly fired in a 1911. )

hahahahahahaha............,You guys are killin' me.........And AMEN to the .45 ACP comment----All face South, bow, and praise John Moses Browning!!!!

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Go big or stay home

First in regards to the .44 Spl. Ruger had much the same view for years. Why produce a .44 Spl on a magnum frame. When they introded their mid size frame Blackhawk in 2005 in .357, the next logical step was a .44 Spl, which they brought out this year. NOW the cartridge makes sense, so much, I bought one. Much more packable version than a Super Blackhawk as it is very close to the Colt SA in size.
Second, the .41 Magnum. If it is such a great round, why does it have so much trouble selling? IMHO, the .44M offers much more and while the .41M has a following, it is more cult like than any .44M group I have ever seen.

There are two groups in the gun world: those who want more 41 mags, and those who don't.....yet.....

Those who want more generally don't care what the rest have to say about their favored round.

The concept of personal choice is not difficult to explain. Choice of caliber is analogous to the "mustard or catsup/ketchup on your hot dog" threads that so-often mesmerizes so many.

And that is what marketing is all about.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

better question would seem to be...if the 41 mag.is such a poor seller (as you mentioned) why has S&W been producing and selling them for over 45 years?

Well if the 44 special was a waste of time then I want all the dollars that smith and wesson made of that caliber.
As to the 44 mag I just don't like it and that is why I don't own one.
I have thought about the 41 mag but just can't figure out what I need it for so most likely will never get one but a 41 special might be interesting.
What must be remembered is there isn't a firearm made that wasn't done so with the idea of making money on said firearm. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. No one makes a given caliber firearm for decades unless the public is willing to buy it and it makes the company money. The company doesn't care what anyone says as long as sales are there to justify the production of a given firearm.

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DAV

I thank everybody for their replies.

And I am also thankful that nobody called for my Tar and Feathering, or worse a Lynching...

I do know that 41 Mag, and 44 Special "users" are very dedicated to their choices.

One of my old time shooting buddies posts here and has been using the 41 Mag since at least the early 1980's..

I tease him all the time... PS he was using the 38 Super "before it was cool"... WAY before the IPSC Champions "discovered it"...
So he ain't totally crazy...

If you analyse all the posts that talk about different loads, there is a common denomonator... A bullet from 200 to 250 grains, depending on calibre, and a velocity from @800 to 900fps for "general purposes", and these same bullets from 900 to 1100 for "serious" purposes...

Either a Lead bullet or a Jacketed HP depending on the purpose in mind.

In truth with the exception of the top Magnum loads in the 41 Mag, and the 44 Mag, the 41 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 45 ACP/Auto Rim, 45 Colt are all capable of the same thing.

Light accurate loads for target shooting/plinking/practice, medium power loads for urban self defence, and higher powered loads for field use in most circumstances.

Even in BIG bear country, I know a @220/250gr bullet at even 1000fps will penetrate the skull...

So "when" I become President of S&W, I will not stop making your favorites...

I will eleminate the LOCK..., and return some quality control, even if the guns do have to cost $25.00 more...

However for me, the only N frames I "need" are 44 Mags and 45 ACP's.

I will confess... I have thought about getting one of those "44 Special Bodyguards"...

Good luck with that! You can't pay people enough money to make them give a care. It takes enough good men on the job to get the message through to the others that slipshod nonsense is not going to be tolerated: "It makes us all look bad, so you can straighten up - or go elsewhere!"

That is hard to arrange. I think it always has been. Now, it is even harder. Everyone has so many "rights," you know.

A picture is worth a thousand words.







44 special 'Bodyguard'








Regards , Allen-44-Frame

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NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

I am suprised those grips were not more popular.

If it goes bang, I like it. They're all good.......

I'll chime in and agree with the above...

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Barry, youngest son of Claud

[QUOTE=NE450No2;1178152] But back to N Frames....

Since the 44 mag was "invented" why still make 44 Specials???
Because, unless you are liable to encounter a big, bad griz in your daily ramblings...the properly-loaded .44 Special at around 1000 fps will handle anything you're likely to run up against...and...you have it all in a package that is smaller and lighter and maybe fits your hand better.

I have no problems with 357 Mags in the N Frame, and I am not a 357 Mag kind of guy...
I don't like them. In an N-frame, it makes for a very heavy gun due to the smaller "charge holes."

I think the N Frame 45 ACP revolvers are GREAT. And I used one for a work gun for several years...
I have a 325 NG next to me as I type this...
I have a 325PD that I would be delighted to sell you. It loves to take the meat off of my thumb web when I shoot 230's through it. If you only carry it, and never shoot it, you're fine.

If I was President of S&W, there would never have been a 41 Mag, and no 44 Specials after the intoduction of the 44 Mag...
Which is why you weren't considered for the job..

There would not be any "locks" either...
Finally...we agree.
All IMHO...Sonny

I'm very fond of my 329NG... even more so when full of Specials... I admit, I do like the ease of getting 44 mag cartridges when going bird hunting in areas w. pigs.

I think the biggest advantage a 44 mag has over a 44 special is the ready availability of cartridges loaded to deal w. animals.

Uh......
Why make a 38 Special??

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Well, I was kinda wondering......

With the 50s being made now, just toss all the less powerful rounds and keep the best. 500 S&W for handiguns; and 50 bmg for the rifles.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

i love 44 spec and the 44 mag they both have a place im glad they make both

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

This box would be too heavy if the guns were Magnums instead of Specials:



And these are all a lot more fun and useful than they would be if they were Magnums instead of Specials:



I can do anything I need to do with a .44 Special. As others have said, the guns are lighter, handier, easier to carry, easier to shoot, and they have that special element of "class...."

You know why I like 357 N frame??? Because K&L frames are just a tad too small and do not fit my hand good even with big woods on, kind of wish I had got the 625 instead.

Oh well the oldest grandson should be big enough to handle the 686-8 5" by the time he is 7 or 8 I guess. At 4 yrs and 9 months old he is almost 4' tall and weighs in at 72 lbs and strong as an ox.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

I had a NIB 624, 4 inch, 44 Special and a like new 629 MT Gun in 44 Mag. I weight both of them on a postal scale and they weighted the same.

I have fired a buddys 624 and find that the accuracy for me is the same in both guns. (624 & 629)

I sold the 624 and kept the 639 Mt Gun. I fire both 44 Specials and .44 Mags out of my Mountain gun. and with the 624 I was limited (?) to .44 specials.

All that being said I shoot more .44 Specials out of the Mt Gun then .44 Mags.

Both the .44 Special and the .44 Mag Has it place.

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Semper FI

I ran across a 41 Mag about a year ago that was priced very good for a LNIB gun but having looked up reloading data and bullets available couple times over the years and have stuck with 10mm automatic because of the huge assortment of bullet types, shapes and weights, more then available for the 357 IIRC and about the same with 44 Magnum vs 44 magnum. So that is why I would never own a 41 magnum, sorry guys.

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Cranky Old Retired USN Guy

Ok. Now I really don't get it.
Why would you need a 45 ACP N frame when you could just load 44 Specials in your 44 Mag?

"Why would you need a 45 ACP N frame when you could just load 44 Specials in your 44 Mag?"

A M625 .45 ACP Mountain Gun with a handfull of full moon clips makes a h--l of a fightin' sixgun. Quickest loading revolver and a good man armed with one is as fast as most folks with a semiauto.

I carried a 3" M625 as a cop and could beat most of my fellow officers, armed with semiautos, during reloading drills and qualifications.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!