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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #51  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:21 AM
John Rus John Rus is offline
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Originally Posted by MAGNUMMASTER View Post
MIM on the other hand, is just another way of manufacturing a metal part and it has been used for a very long time now and improved to very high quality standards to the point that the parts of most reputable companies, especially that of S&W, a name that has always stood for quality, now match, yes match, forged parts. Forged parts can have imperfections as well and there lies the double edged sword of the human factor. Could MIM parts sometimes be fit and finished better? Yes. That is the only difference.

This new method of manufacturing MIM parts is here to stay. It is just a new way of getting to the same result.

Smith still makes some revolvers with forged parts and they don't cost that much more. MIM is cheaper and easier to manufacture but not as strong. Pretty simple I think.

I can't figure out why that is so hard to understand.

Last edited by John Rus; 02-18-2017 at 01:23 AM.
  #52  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:42 AM
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Don't we get enough of these posts already? No need to resurrect 7 year old threads.

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  #53  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by revolver686 View Post
Don't we get enough of these posts already? No need to resurrect 7 year old threads.

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Can't agree with you more. This is a thread back from the dead. Maybe a Mod will come along and put it out it's misery.
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  #54  
Old 02-22-2017, 02:33 PM
MAGNUMMASTER MAGNUMMASTER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rus View Post
MIM is cheaper and easier to manufacture but not as strong. Pretty simple I think.

I can't figure out why that is so hard to understand.
That's the very thing I keep asking. MIM is cheaper and easier to manufacture but to say it is not as strong is nonsense. This process has been used so long now, and advanced so far, that the quality is right on par with forged. To say otherwise is simply not accurate. S&W does not put out junk. The company has always stood for quality and they are only following what has become the industry standard of parts manufacturing. It's not the 50s or 60s anymore.

I think this is a thread that is going nowhere. You just can't change some perceptions.
Done with this one. Dead horse.

Last edited by MAGNUMMASTER; 02-22-2017 at 02:37 PM.
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  #55  
Old 02-22-2017, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
That's the very thing I keep asking. MIM is cheaper and easier to manufacture but to say it is not as strong is nonsense.
^^^^^THIS^^^^^

The problem with MIM hammers & triggers used in S&W revolvers is not how they function but rather that they look like H-E double hockey sticks as compared to their forged CCH predecessors. The savings realized by Smith & Wesson is not in the cost of the component but rather the labor savings because MIM parts are made to such close tolerances that the fitting required is minimal. I don't begrudge the company for the change in manufacturing technology but do for attempting to translate this into a manufacturing philosophy where it is thought that close tolerance CNC machining and MIM equal less final QC and inspection. Too much sloppy product leaves the factory and that includes the Performance Center. They should know that their perceived reputation with the consumer should be base on the quality of the finished product and not that of their warranty & repair department.

The fact is however that I will never own a new Smith & Wesson revolver which has the lock. It is a constant reminder of their capitulation to the Clinton administration and their continued refusal to remove it shows considerable lack of gumption IMO.

Bruce

Last edited by BruceM; 02-23-2017 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 02-22-2017, 09:08 PM
John Rus John Rus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGNUMMASTER View Post
MIM is cheaper and easier to manufacture but to say it is not as strong is nonsense.
I guess you have never worked in a machine shop have you?

A forged piece of steel is stronger than an un-forged piece. When you compress the steel the molecules are rearranged and produce a steel that is tougher and stronger than it originally was. Smith still use it on some guns and they wouldn't do that if the only difference was price.

John.
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  #57  
Old 02-22-2017, 10:03 PM
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I love my 29-10 classic series it is a great shooter, the fit & finish is fantastic plus it never causes me any problems with any of the ammo I feed it...love it & don't know what all the fuss is about with these new revolvers....
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  #58  
Old 02-23-2017, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
I guess you have never worked in a machine shop have you?
Conversely, it looks like you're neither an industrial nor mechanical engineer. I guess we can cross metallurgist off the list also.

All I will say at this point is that there is more to what makes a component suitable for a specific purpose other than if it's forged or MIM manufactured.

Being either a machinist or a tool and die maker does not make you an irrefutable expert on the subject.

Bruce

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  #59  
Old 02-23-2017, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceM View Post
Conversely, it looks like you're neither an industrial nor mechanical engineer. I guess we can cross metallurgist off the list also.

All I will say at this point is that there is more to what makes a component suitable for a specific purpose other than if it's forged or MIM manufactured.

Being either a machinist or a tool and die maker does not make you an irrefutable expert on the subject.

Bruce

Bruce
My friend. It looks like maybe there may be a more constructive way to go about your day.

MIM was a way an American company had to do to cut costs. To compete. We should all buy American as much as possible. I understand your apprehension to do so.

Let's not bash the brand. In this day and age, so much hate is wrong. Let's accept the lock and move on. Used as a child deterrent/ safety device; this may save at least one life! I can argue that one life saved is worth all this heartache. Life is precious.

Thank you for your understanding. This is all I'll say in this matter. My apologies if I couldn't keep quiet.

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  #60  
Old 02-23-2017, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_the_welder View Post
My friend. It looks like maybe there may be a more constructive way to go about your day.

MIM was a way an American company had to do to cut costs. To compete. We should all buy American as much as possible. I understand your apprehension to do so.

Let's not bash the brand. In this day and age, so much hate is wrong. Let's accept the lock and move on. Used as a child deterrent/ safety device; this may save at least one life! I can argue that one life saved is worth all this heartache. Life is precious.

Thank you for your understanding. This is all I'll say in this matter. My apologies if I couldn't keep quiet.

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Take another look at the post you quoted and read Bruce's previous post. He is defending S&W's engineering decisions........
  #61  
Old 02-23-2017, 02:18 PM
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Ahhh! My apologies Bruce!

I was responding to post #55 about not buying something with the lock.

Yes. We both agree mim was a cost savings to the company and such.

Sorry about the confusion

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  #62  
Old 02-23-2017, 03:48 PM
John Rus John Rus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceM View Post
Conversely, it looks like you're neither an industrial nor mechanical engineer. I guess we can cross metallurgist off the list also.

All I will say at this point is that there is more to what makes a component suitable for a specific purpose other than if it's forged or MIM manufactured.

Being either a machinist or a tool and die maker does not make you an irrefutable expert on the subject.

Bruce

Bruce
You obviously don't have a clue about what goes on in a machine shop.

When someone comes in with a old tractor part or woodworking tool part, shaft or something else. You need to be able know what steel to use and what tolerances would be acceptable in the given application. Or whether it needs hard chrome plating or what surface finish the part needs ect. You don't need a degree to figure this out and a simple google search would confirm what I am talking about.

John.

Last edited by John Rus; 02-23-2017 at 03:49 PM.
  #63  
Old 02-23-2017, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rus View Post
You obviously don't have a clue about what goes on in a machine shop.
You don't need a degree to figure this out and a simple google search would confirm what I am talking about.

John.
MIM
LMGTFY
Oopsies when arguing
LMGTFY



Probably time to close this thread

Last edited by SLT223; 02-23-2017 at 10:34 PM.
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  #64  
Old 02-23-2017, 10:46 PM
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Guys, this thread is 7 years old! It was dug up from the grave by a noobie! Let this die a deserved death!
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  #65  
Old 02-23-2017, 11:18 PM
John Rus John Rus is offline
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The Difference Between Casting & Forging

It compares forging to casting but MIM is more or less similar to casting depending on how it's made.

John.

Last edited by John Rus; 02-23-2017 at 11:20 PM.
  #66  
Old 02-23-2017, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
MIM was a way an American company had to do to cut costs.
Actually, MIM addresses a number of very important concerns with regard to the manufacturing process. Number one is the ability to make high quality, very close tolerance, very intricate components in the most cost effective manner. In many cases, parts made thru the MIM process could not be manufactured at all using normal machining processes or they could be made put with relatively high reject rates.

The last I heard, the objective of most manufacturers is to build the highest quality possible product at the most competitive price point- not at an unrestricted price level. Just ask Colt. They were and in some cases still are doing it the way they were 50 or 60 years ago with methods and equipment equally old. The fact is that the vast majority of American consumers actually shop and make cost vs quality decisions-even gun owners. Manufacturing parts using the MIM process is a very expensive undertaking. The engineering and other setup costs are enormous and the raw materials are also extremely expensive. The savings are not in the cost of the part but rather the labor required assemble product.

High quality MIM parts using the correct alloys and heat treatment are 94% to 97% the strength of similar forgings. This is well within the specs. including the safety factor for similar forged or barstock parts. Used in the correct applications, this is far more than strong enough. That said, MIM is not suitable for every application.

To answer your question about being in a machine shop, my first full time job was in a machine shop learning the basics. I ran auto screw machines, turret lathes and chuckers. My grandfather, a couple of uncles and a number of my friends were career machinist. My cousin was a tool & die maker. I grew up in Milwaukee and during that time we had many and the best machine shops in the world and that included Germany. If you didn't go on to school after high school, you apprenticed to be a machinist or tool and die maker. The other alternative was the breweries. So, I'm acquainted with machine shops. My recollection is that forging changes the grain structure of the steel and not the molecular content.

Anyway.............

Bruce

P.S. Casting is not the same as MIM but that said, Ruger has proven time and time again that investment cast receivers are more than stout enough to complete with forging based competitors.

Last edited by BruceM; 02-24-2017 at 12:06 AM.
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  #67  
Old 02-24-2017, 12:06 AM
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How It Works – Metal Injection Molding | Today’s Machining World

Forging vs. Casting: Which is better?

Sorry but forging is stronger.
  #68  
Old 02-24-2017, 04:26 AM
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http://smith-wessonforum.com/redirec...ion-molding%2F

This article addresses the state of the art in MIM technology-10 years ago. That's a decade. It isn't currently the state of the art.

I'm done here unless we now need to debate the viability of the flush toilet or if the US astronauts actually landed on the moon in 1979.

Bruce
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Old 02-24-2017, 06:38 AM
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