New 625JM – Very disappointed in quality / fit & finish.. UPDATE: Resolution/response

[pctech]

Hi Guys,

Late yesterday afternoon I took possession of a brand new S&W 625JM revolver that I purchased from a large online gun dealer. The gun was brand new in the box (never in a display case) with the test fired cartridge envelope showing a build date of 7/8/2010. This makes the gun less than three weeks old.

After getting home with the revolver and having a chance to look at it close up, I am disappointed to find that the quality and fit & finish is nowhere near what I have come to expect from S&W. Some of the issues I have noted are as follows:
*Pitting on top portion of barrel, both sides
*Large scratch in finish on side of barrel
*Barrel crown uneven/misformed and shows pitting.
*Poorly fit sideplate
*Misc. small nicks/tooling marks on frame in multiple places.

Are these common issues for current production S&W revolvers?

For a gun with a MSRP of over $1,100, and carrying the Jerry Miculek name, I’m a bit shocked to see these types of issues present. While each issue (except the barrel crown) may seem somewhat minor on its own, when put together it creates a gun that is not worthy of the S&W brand name.

If anyone can provide me with a corporate contact person @ S&W, I would greatly appreciate it. (Send PM).
Considering the price I paid for this gun, I expect S&W to replace the gun with one that has been quality control inspected by the performance center, or issue me a full refund. I’m not interested in having this gun worked on or refinished.

Thanks in advance.
James








****UPDATE****
Hello All,

Just wanted to update my original post with the outcome of this issue, as I promised I would.

The gun was returned to the factory using a pre-paid shipping label provided by S&W. Several days later, I received the following email from Kate, a S&W Warranty Dept. Manager. :

===========================================
(James),
We have received your new Model 625 revolver in
our Service Department for our examination.
We have gone through your list of concerns and found that
there is a very fine scratch on the barrel. The pitting that
you note is not actually pitting in the barrel. It is tiny marks
when the barrel is being forged. We had to use a jeweler’s eye
to actually see these marks. As far as the sideplate fit, it is well
within our manufacturing standards.
The repairs could be handled under the Lifetime Service Policy
as stated in your safety instruction manual, but you do
note that you would prefer to have your purchase price
reimbursed. If you would like to be reimbursed for the handgun,
please forward A copy of your bill of sale to my attention at 2100 Roosevelt
Ave., Springfield, MA 01104.
Thank you,
Kate
Customer Service
Department
===============================================

As a long time S&W customer, I am disappointed that they seem to consider the defects present on this gun to be normal and “well within our manufacturing standards”. I also find it interesting that they had to use a “jeweler’s eye” to see the pitting defects, since my 5+ year old digital camera seemed to capture it just fine.

To S&W’s credit, they did honor my request for a refund and the check arrived in the mail today.

To sum it up, I will remain a (reluctant) S&W customer, but will no longer attempt to purchase their products online. The risk of getting a gun that hasn’t been property QC inspected is just too great, in my opinion. Any new S&W’s I buy will either be through gun shows, or other local venues where I can carefully inspect the gun for defects prior to purchase.

James

[duckloads]

call S&W. when the messages start press "0". That will get you to a live person / operator. The recoil shield on that gun looks like it has been beat with a chain, but be nice if possible. I'd tell the operator that I need a refund on a gun that I just purchased at.....I bet that online dealer was saving the junk for sight unseen buyers.

[toofless]

Funny--I just bought the same gun and it is the nicest S&W I've ever bought.Out of the box perfect!

[S&W WHEELNUT]

James,
Here's Jerry's # 318-949-1303 call......
and a email......... [email protected] I send him a email about
3 weeks ago ...... and KAY (wife) did call me back.
This is why I buy older and ONLY pre-lock guns.

[DCWilson]

I no longer expect glassy 1930s-era perfection on a modern S&W, but I sure expect better than that. That gun should never have been shipped. That's the kind of surface I would not be surprised to see on a down-market firearm like those made by (insert name of cheap and fast manufacturer here).

[Stainz]

All but one of my S&W's were bought new and made in '01 or later - and they've been fine. That includes an early 625JM. You got something that should be replaced. S&W will take care of you, even if it takes a while! That is a fine revolver... or it should be... hang in there!

Stainz

PS All of mine were bought locally... from a gunstore.

[cjk1911]

*Barrel crown uneven/misformed and shows pitting.

This explains a lot in my situation. I bought a 625 JM on gunbroker and the crown looks like it was done by an angry beaver. At first I thought that it may have been the victim of a amature smith. The more I looked at it I realized that he would have been a disaster at removing metal but an expert at replacing it, meaning I have a horrible crown between 10 o'clock and 4, and no crown at all between 4 and 10. Also every screw needed tightened for the side plate and sights, and my guess is that the original owner soth it very little. They must have some bad tooling and quailty control. I called and was disapointed with the answer I received.

I agree they should replace your revolver. Someone should let Jerry know about the stuff they are sending out with his name on it. I got a great deal on my and may just correct my issues on my own.

[kennyb]

i'm sure S&W will make this right...i have the 625 JM,51/2"barrel from the performance center....deadly accurate and no issues whatsoever..keep us posted

[bsms]

I see threads like these fairly often on various forums, and not just S&W. I have a Ruger that looks just a bit better than that out of the box, but it shoots good & I don't expect fine finish on a Ruger...so I've ignored it. However, S&W revolvers seem to run around $150 more than equivalent S&W models, and I expect to get more for my money. I bought a S&W in June (60LS) and barely looked at it when I went in to pick it up. I got lucky and it was in excellent shape, but I don't think anyone can ASSUME it anymore.

The lesson I've taken away is that as manufacturers have ramped up to meet increased demand, their QC has gone downhill. I don't mind buying sight unseen from a large Internet site, but I now figure I need to do a thorough inspection on receiving the gun. Full function check and a careful look at the fit & finish. If it doesn't pass, don't take delivery. I think the customer now needs to do the QC that the manufacturers are not providing.

[Culina]

That is a result of bad/no QC or S&W has lowered their standards. I don't think it would be economically feasible to fix it so their only option would be to replace it.

[epj]

Some of those defects I could probably live with, though I'd rather not have to. Especially on a gun costing as much as that one did. The crown, OTOH, is pathetic. The recoil shield doesn't look to good either, but I doubt it would hinder performance. Have you shot the gun? Just wonder if the crown treatment is as bad as it looks. Hopefully S&W will undertake to remedy this situation.

[deanodog]

That is a gun that needs replacing. I agree with you on the condition and I would insist on a new gun. I don't think they could even fix all that shows in your pics.

[perrazi]

just one of the many reasons i don't buy any of the new stuff. every time i see something like this, it reinforces my belief. yes, all companies put things out they shouldn't,but i don't accept that as an excuse. fix the problem in the first place and you don't have to deal with this sort of thing. i can't believe it doesn't cost more in the long run with the extra bookkeeping, shipping,inspecting, and probably scrapping a large part of this gun. besides the bad press this always brings.

[Nightowl]

Just my opinion, but you got to be careful buying a Bangor Punta gun too. A lot of those I have looked at had timing issues. Maybe I just looked at too small a sample, but I learned to pay special attention to all guns that way.

I would not like to shell out those kind of bucks for a poorly finished gun, either.

[Rolan_Kraps]

Mine is put together like Eggs and Sausage. No problems at all.

[pctech]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all of the very helpful responses. You've confirmed my thoughts on the gun. No, I haven't shot it and don't intend to. S&W needs to take this one back.

I am in the process of contacting S&W to see what they will do for me. I'm requesting either a full refund of my purchase price and xfer fees, or a (brand new) replacement gun that has been fully QC inspected prior to shipping. (This one obviously wasn't)

I sent a fax early this afternoon but didn't receive any reply before close of business today. I'll give them another day to respond, then I'll be going on to the corporate/certified mail route. (I prefer to have this type of communication in writing)

If anyone has contact info for a specific person @ S&W that may be able to help with this type of issue, I would greatly appreciate it.

I'll continue to update once I know more.

Thanks,
James

[TSQUARED]

$1000 sems ike a lot of money but at todays L&O rates it's amazing that they can offer anything made in the uSA for that price range. How does the gun shoot - that is the ultimate test.

[Bullseye Smith]

Give them a call, they will fix it for you.

[Stainz]

I need to take the gloves off for this one. My only new revolver purchase in two years was my 2 5/8" PC627 - $1006 at a LGS - but I got the 'first'. A PC Shop piece and it had poorly-fitted grips. I returned the grips. It took them a month to send me another identical set - with a grip screw that stuck out by 1/4". Calls & e-mails later, they sent me another FEDEX label for the grips - and another one for the entire revolver! Subsequent calls basically said send the gun back. The problem? Simple - the original run (1999) had different frame radii behind the trigger guard than the current N-frames (post 2000). The current wider radii will close up perfectly over old or new frames; the older grips' tighter radii won't close up on the wider radii modern frames. I figured it out - why can't they?

It's simple. They are banking on me not sending the gun back - and they are right. The revolver, in my case, is perfect - it fits my hand better with other grips anyway. Some folks will accept less than others - that must be what they are hoping for as a result. I know that is why your gun made it out the door. Call their 800# - get the CS guy you talk to to give you his name and extension - and request an overnite FEDEX label - you'll get it in a few days. They will pickup and return your firearm to your street address. Your revolver should get a replacement - possibly a new s/n. In that eventuality, it will have to go to an ffl holder for transfer. The letter used to state that they didn't insure firearms - they would replace any lost guns. Win win there! Just clearly list all of the faults in your included letter - with the model & s/n. That is normally a real keeper - when it is right, it is a delight to plink with - a frugal big bore. Good luck!

Stainz

PS One design problem - those sharp grooves on the trigger face - DNA samples every use - until you ease them with some Emery cloth!

[MERV5-5505]

I realize that any company, no matter what its reputation can sometimes let a lemon squeeze out the door. But, I have to say: you are 110% correct for wanting a full refund and/or an acceptable quality replacement. If the revolver was $200-300 brand new, you might not have such an argument, but $1000 and up is real money…especially to a working guy like myself.

I had the honor of serving under a Captain, a good man named Barry Travis, (R.I.P Barry…) while during my time with FDNY-EMS, and he had a saying to help explain why the world can be so full of pot-holes sometimes: “The world is run by D students…”
While I am no genius…I wish that quote didn’t ring so true at times.

Not to come off like a crank, but with few exceptions, if you take a look around and see what passes for hard work these days, it is no surprise that pride in craftsmanship is becoming the rare exception & not the rule.

I really wish you the best with your experiences with S&W Customer Service, as many of the forum members here think, I agree that they will do the right thing. Please keep us posted.

[SaberOne]

This sorta reminds me of my 686 experience. I recently sold a 'new' 686 2.5-inch and it was fairly nice although it wasn't what I expected, so I sold it unfired. The buyer was convinced that I had taken steel wool to the barrel and that it appeared considerably worn. It took a conference call to Smith’ to prove it had just recently shipped from the factory.

[6pack]

Gun looks like it was completed at closing time in a rush by a trainee.

Sorry you had to go through this. I've bought a few guns online from Bud's and so far all are okay. They have a statement in their "shipped" e-mail for you to very closely examine the gun before accepting it from your FFL. I'll be sure to look carefully on my next two which are Smiths.

Best wishes getting your issues resolved. Hopefully they'll simply swap out your gun. I like the 625JM guns...hope you have a perfect one in your hands soon.

[pctech]

Well, no progress yet.

I can't even get S&W to communicate with me. I sent them a fax yesterday and one this morning, but have not received a reply to either.

Just made a post in the lounge forum to see if anyone can give me info on a contact person @ S&W to deal with directly. I'd really prefer to do my communication with them in writing/email if at all possible.

[Nightowl]

I have found that it sometimes takes two or three days for an e-mail response.

[Fuego]

One of the reasons I prefer to buy from a stocking dealer is that I get to check the gun out before purchase. And I am willing to pay an extra $50 or so to keep my local dealer in business.
The last problem I had was with a S&W340 that would not properly index the cylinder. I took it to the dealer, and he sent it back on his dime.
S&W still did not get it right, so I took it back and the dealer sent it in again.

I much prefer to let a stocking dealer run interference for me. They have more clout, and they know who to talk to at S&W.

[AKAOV1MAN]

I have to agree, that gun is awful! I think it is the exception rather than the rule, and the dealer/distributor should have sent the gun back to S&W when they inspected it-if they inspected it. I would appreciate it if you would share the name of the dealer, if not on the board then by PM or personal e-mail.

[Kanewpadle]

Primary reason I don't buy online.

[AzTBH]

James

I just looked at my early production (S/N JPM03XX) JM625 under a fly-tying magnifying light. The gun is unfired (except by the factory), so it is a fair comparison.

My revolver shows none of “quality and fit & finish” issues that your revolver displays. Fortunately, I ordered my gun (years ago) from Scottsdale Gun Club, so I was able to examine it before purchasing. I agree with the other forum members that your revolver displays unacceptable quality issues that Smith & Wesson should correct.

Good luck with your discussions with the factory.

Ross
Peoria, AZ

[pctech]

S&W has emailed me a Fedex shipping label to return the gun. It'll be going back to the factory on Monday.

I will be including a letter requesting a refund or replacement gun.

Will keep everyone updated.

James

[surveyor47]

Are you sure that isnt a refinished flood damaged gun? There are LOTs of them out there.

[ShrinkMD]

I had different issues with a new 625JM. The cylinder would not advance properly when the gun was loaded (worked fine empty). After the first time I sent it back, it shot, but the trigger had a weird catch on two cylinders. I also noticed the chrome flaking off the hammer. They took it back again (both on their dime) and now it is finally shooting well and seems ok.

I was pretty annoyed, too, that a brand new gun would need several trips to the factory to make it right, but make it right they did. They even forgot to include the metal moon clips with it, and had to send them separately. Must have been a rough Monday morning when they made it.

[Wayne M]

Your experience is not the norm but it isn't rare either. S&W is like just about everybody else meaning QC in mass production THESE DAYS is a hit and miss affair. In the past couple years I've seen loose shrouds on PC guns with two piece barrels(five I'm personally aware of), over indexted barrels(three I've seen), one 686 where the cylinder latch side of the top strap had been final polished to the point the edge of the barrel actually protruded past the strap(the initial thought was over index again but the rear blade was centered correctly. Add to these the other incidents we read about but can't acutally confirm and it's obvious QC need some attention. On the other hand Springfield Armory, Kimber, Colt, Bushmaster and on and on......owners all have their tales to tell too. Check some of the other forums. Aggravating it is but let Smith make it right because they still will! To me S&W is still the only revolver game in town, even if it has to go back right out of the box.

[pctech]

surveyor47,

As noted in my original post, the "test cartridge envelope" shows the gun is brand new, and didn't leave the S&W factory until 7/8/2010. (About 3 weeks ago). So no, it's not a "flood damaged gun".

James

[surveyor47]

Sure looks like one..... ughhhh-yuck.

[pctech]

Posted an update at the bottom of my original post with the resolution from S&W.

[dwever]

It can be hit and miss. My most reliable trouble free S&W was their Gunsite 1911, while a $2,500 Melonite 1911 from the Perf Ctr I bought for competition had two trips for warranty work. I have a Perf Ctr 629 (the stainless steel 1/2 lug with 7.5 barrell) and it has been trouble free and a joy, while a 627 5" had to be tuned.

I've since gotten rid of all the S&W's except the 629 for hunting (great rig with a Leupole 2x20). So besides the 629, I am down to the Glocks I have related to LE duty as required by my agency, and a Wilson 1911. I am considering a Perf Ctr .45 revolver in order that I don't bring any more calibers into the mix.

[augy]

I recently wanted a S&W model 610 and told my dealer about it. My dealer is a friend of the local distributor for S&W guns as well as others.
Dealer called me and told me the distributor was at his shop with a new S&W model 610 with the 4" barrel. I was all set to buy the gun.
Went down and opened the box, and couldn't believe my eyes. I asked the distributor if this was a new gun, or one that that was used for testing.
I guess he thought I was crazy, as he said it was brand new. Anyway, I didn't buy the gun, as it looked too used for me. It had some small scratches, rear sight had a slight ding, and was filthy. I did find a very nice one on-line, and bought it with no regrets.
I try to buy the older Smiths at Gun shows or at the auction sites online, and so far have been very pleased with my purchases.
Good luck and hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.

IMHO, I don't believe Smith and Wesson is putting out the quality of years past.

augy

[bountyhunter]

Originally Posted by pctech

As a long time S&W customer, I am disappointed that they seem to consider the defects present on this gun to be normal and “well within our manufacturing standards”. I also find it interesting that they had to use a “jeweler’s eye” to see the pitting defects, since my 5+ year old digital camera seemed to capture it just fine.

To S&W’s credit, they did honor my request for a refund and the check arrived in the mail today.

To sum it up, I will remain a (reluctant) S&W customer, but will no longer attempt to purchase their products online. The risk of getting a gun that hasn’t been property QC inspected is just too great, in my opinion. Any new S&W’s I buy will either be through gun shows, or other local venues where I can carefully inspect the gun for defects prior to purchase.

James

It's remarkable they offered a full refund, probably due to internet visibility.

I used to think SW shipped their rejects out here to California to punish the state for it's anti gun policies. I suspect it is just poor quality across the board. I used to QA the new guns at my range and showed the guys there how to check barrel cylinder gap, headspace, lock up wobble, etc. I found a couple of guns so bad they were junk, and the shop owner said he was sending them back immediately (he was lying). The fool forgets that guns have serial numbers. Those guns stayed right there until they sold weeks later.....

And for the record, some of the PC guns had defects too. I was looking for a 627 for a while but never saw one that was free of defects. Most common are failure to carry up on one or more cylinder positions and cylinder wobble in lockup. I am of the opinion a $1200 new gun should be right, SW clearly does not agree.

[jbn43]

Quality control on firearms finishes is lacking. I recently bought a new S&W model 63 22 lr. I had to check out no less than 7 at different gun stores until I found one that did not look like it had been polished with sandpaper. That's sad, especially when you look look at the finishes of the older Pin barrel Smiths.

[JohnSW]

Originally Posted by pctech

then I'll be going on to the corporate/certified mail route. (I prefer to have this type of communication in writing)

Yes, when all else fails, I send a US Mail letter to a company's President and CEO.

http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.z...irol-govmanage

[Bob1943]

I have looked at 6 PC guns (686, 627) in the past 2 months. Everyone of them either had a canted barrel or a scuffed up finish. Looked at one 686 Plus during the same time period and it had a canted barrel as well.

[Hapworth]

Zombie thread.

[HarrishMasher]

This thread is from 2010

[Laker2004]

Looked at two model 629's at LGS yesterday. no joke, both had canted barrels. one so bad the guy at the counter started laughing.

[Bob1943]

Another guy just started a new thread today about a new 629 Talo that he bought and noticed the canted barrel after he got it home.

As I have posted several times here in the last few months, canted barrels seem to be becoming the rule rather than the exception on S&W revolvers. I have visited several LGS recently and have yet to find a straight barrel with no frame scratches. Looks like I may be in for a long search for a straight barrel, snub-nose 686-Plus.

[grumpy7159]

There is a reason SWHC stock is just above $9. That lock on the side of the revolvers is an indication of more than a blemish. Smith does not seem to be operated by gun people any more. QC problems may be a sign of low morale in the work force. The guy at the top with the funny accent needs to get with it. It is not a good thing to have people in the gun store pointing out defects and setting the firearm back on the counter and walking away.

[exdetsgt]

I agree with the lower QC at S&W. Having said that, a few weeks ago I bought a new 442 from the local lgs. Fit/finish is perfect and the barrel isn't canted. Maybe I got lucky? No, I got to inspect the gun before I bought it. I don't mind paying a bit more from the lgs than from an on-line dealer because then there usually aren't unpleasant surprises.

[nossew]

I have bought 4 new S&W since 2011, none had canted barrels but did have other problems.

Model 63 - terrible lead spitting and huge gap between cyl and forcing cone. - S&W replaced the barrel in less than 2 weeks and is now an excellent shooter.

442 no lock - Perfect

Governor - Perfect

627 Pro - perfect in appearance and quite accurate.
Sometimes when releasing the trigger it would not reset properly so on the next shot the cylinder would rotate but not cock the hammer so it would not fire thereby skipping a round. This one is back at S&W now.

Obviously not a big sampling but, both of my failures have been with Stainless guns.