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  #1  
Old 06-15-2010, 09:42 AM
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Default What years did the FBI issue the Model 13?

Anyone know the range?
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:21 AM
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I just saw this recently the weapons, and dates, of the FBI. Let me think where I saw it..........Glocktalk maybe?
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:14 PM
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hang on...there are some current and former agents on here who have talked about these guns before...I always like to see their responses
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:56 PM
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I went through new agent training in 1991, and the issue at that time was the Sig P226, purchased off the DEA contract. The 1076 had just been recalled - I believe it was adopted in 1990.

The Model 13 was the issue prior to the 1076, so the end of its run would have been sometime in 1990.

That leaves the question of starting date. SCSW3 says 1984, which could be correct. Most of the guys in my first office were still carrying revolvers and the vast majority of them were Model 13s. A couple of guys in the middle of their careers were carrying 2 1/2 inch Model 10s. The old timers were carrying four inch standard barrel Model 10s. The guys with maximum cool points were carrying Colt Pythons and Detective Specials that were grandfathered in.

I hope someone who has actually researched this chimes in, but I think 1984 - 1990 would be a pretty fair guess.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:43 PM
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My brother is a retired FBI agent (retired in 1999). He became an agent back in the 60s (1960s, smart asses). I remember a discussion in the 1970s that indicated there were still a number of agents carrying the old standby M27s (or earlier ). Those too were grandfathered in, apparently.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:34 PM
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I went through new agent training in 1991...
Question for you.

What was the rationale given (if one ever was) for dis-allowing snubby .38 revolvers as back-ups?

I know of at least two incidents where an FBI agent suffered a malfunction of his semi-auto during a contact struggle with a bad guy; no fault of the agents, just an easily-induced problem with ANY semi-auto. The revolver does not have this problem, generally.

I was a panel member and presenter at the '93 Wound Ballistics Seminar at Quantico, so I know how anal the Bureau is about keeping records of such things. Those of us in the non-federal training community were flabbergasted when we heard of the edict... what in the world were they thinking?????

.
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:19 PM
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I think it was strictly a budgetary thing. Even though a revolver is personally owned, the gun vault at Quantico has to maintain it. They have to keep a supply of parts on hand, and have to keep gunsmiths trained up on it.

There was also a training issue. Guys were coming out of Quantico with no revolver training, buying a Model 60, stumbling through a single qualification course, and sallying forth with their new snubby in an ankle holster and their issued semi-auto in the trunk.

And finally, by doing away with revolvers they also did away with the need to buy .38 Special wadcutters and duty ammo.

Personally, I think the appropriate answer to the above problems would be to buy parts, train gunsmiths, train agents on revolvers, and buy .38 ammo. In this case, beancounters won out.

I bought a Glock 27 to replace my beloved Chief's Special ("five-shot" in Bureau parlance) and its been a good gun.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:22 PM
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I entered on duty with the FBI in February 1980 and at that time I was issued a Model 10-8 2 1/2". Beautiful piece. By September 1980 Model 13s were being issued. If I recall correctly.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:33 PM
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As for snubbies, I first carried an FBI issue Colt Detective Special as a backup gun. When the Colts were recalled by the Gun Vault and destroyed I turned to a personally owned S&W Model 36. The neat thing about snubbies was that the qualification course included the 50 yard line. We only had to qualify once a year with these revolvers. So let's see, basically shoot it once a year and you have to hit the target repeatedly at 50 yds with it. I can't describe how much fun that was. That Model 36 was my backup gun for over 20 years and I still own it.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:37 PM
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[QUOTE=sigp220.45;135514918]"Guys were coming out of Quantico with no revolver training, buying a Model 60, stumbling through a single qualification course, and sallying forth with their new snubby in an ankle holster and their issued semi-auto in the trunk."

Apparently, sometimes carrying even a "five shooter" was too much trouble for a few agents. Years back, we had an agent stop in a bank during his lunch hour to cash a check or something. It got robbed while he was there. Somehow, the press discovered he had no gun with him at the time. Rude comments were made.

It amazes me how often cops from all kinds of agencies see their sidearm as merely a requirement or accessory. I can remember some of the detectives in my agency carrying only a 2 inch .38 on duty, and even that was under the seat of their car most of the time.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:09 PM
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I entered on duty in June '85 and the M13 had been issued for awhile. Had to finally turn it back into the vault in Dec. 2001. Was a great little revolver, bet I could'nt hit anything with it now at 50 yards!
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc8163 View Post
I entered on duty with the FBI in February 1980 and at that time I was issued a Model 10-8 2 1/2". Beautiful piece. By September 1980 Model 13s were being issued. If I recall correctly.
My dad was an agent from 64-84...he is pretty certain he got his M13 in 1980 as well...he had it a few years before he retired....but he still carried his personally owned M10 2 inch every day....
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I think it was strictly a budgetary thing.
Well, all that DOES make sense... to a bean counter. Interesting...

Thanks.
.
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  #14  
Old 06-17-2010, 10:40 PM
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I HATE being lumped in with the bean counters, but I had the same problem in 1992 when I took office....I had deputies carrying 38's, 9's, 357's, 40's, 44's, 10mm, 45's, and without a doubt I am missing something.
They had to buy their own ammo, so I budgeted money for ammo at first...quite frankly, even with a small office it was a logistical nightmare...
SOOOO, we bought 40 caliber Glocks (their overwhelming choice) 22's an 23's.....
Since 1992, we have authorized and inventoried various other calibers, such as 9mm and 45ACP....along with 12 gauge buckshot, 5.56 and 7.62.
NOW, we are going back to the future, and have rewritten our policy to include authorizing other weapons in other calibers, however, the deputy has to provide his or her own ammo....such as my M58...I have to buy my own 41 mag if I want to qualify with it (and I will this month)
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:53 AM
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I understand the problems; I ran the Louisiana State Police Firearms Training Unit for many years. Of course, back then GETTING ammunition was no big deal; it was a hassle dealing with the Purchasing weenies, but paperwork is paperwork. These days, just getting the stuff to your door is a major undertaking; a pal at the local sheriff's office has been told it will be after Thanksgiving before he will receive his ordered .45 ball for training. That's at the state contract price... naturally, they'll sell him all he can handle at retail. Profiteering *******s...

Personally-owned weapons had to be signed off on by me or one of my armorers, but upkeep was the trooper's responsibility. Yes, we had some headaches; there will always be some dipstick who thinks he knows better than his instructors (via reading gun magazines).

But the bottom line is, denying something useful to the troops because you, as an administrative type, would rather not be bothered with the minutiae involved, borders on criminal neglect in my book. (Not saying you were neglectful, sheriffoconee; just speaking in general terms).

I understand why the Bureau requires Gun Vault responsibility for all agent weapons; it provides a degree of control and continuity. And in today's litigous atmosphere, it is undoubtedly the best approach to avoid problems.

But it still sucketh for the line troops. J frames aren't that hard to work on, and rarely NEED working on; and with what funds the Bureau pisses away on frivilous stuff, keeping a parts inventory and a trained mechanic or three is a pittance.

But I was never one to totally agree with The Big Picture (as seen by those who had either never spent any time on the line, or had forgotten what it was like). That eventually cost me, but I survived to retire and be able to sit back and criticize from afar... :-)

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Old 10-16-2010, 12:32 AM
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This thread's getting a little moldy--but I'm not sure anyone has made the point clearly that even though the Bureau stopped approving new .38 revolvers back in the 90's, we moss-backed oldsters were allowed to carry our previously approved, personally owned revolvers until relatively recently. I think that my authority to carry my 2" Model 49 was revoked sometime in 2007.

I always found the justification for revoking the authority to carry revolvers--the gun vault's inability to afford spare parts and service -- laughable. I carried my Model 49 on my ankle, on my hip and in the pocket of my top coat for over 27 years and it never needed one whit of service.
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Old 10-16-2010, 04:58 PM
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Hi,
According to the Smith & Wesson book by Jim Supica & Richard Nahas the M13 evolved from the M10-6. The 10-6 was a prototype of the later model 13 chambered in 357. FBI issued the model 13 in 1974 and 1986 to 1987. The 13-1 was introduced for the N.Y.S.P in 1974. I have a model 13-2 4 inch made in the 1977 era. One of my favorite K frame magnums.
Howard

Last edited by roaddog28; 10-16-2010 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 10-16-2010, 11:18 PM
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I was reading all these later dates & scratching my head over distinctly recalling an FBI Model 13 I saw in 1976.
Thanks, Howard.
Denis
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:54 AM
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I went through an FBI taught firearms instructor class in 1979. Two of the Anchorage agents teaching the class had just returned from inservice training at Quantico and were packing newly issued three inch Model 13s. Those of us packing Model 19s and Model 66s looked down on the lowly fixed sight guns. Now I regularly carry a three inch Model 65. It is one of my favorite carry guns. I figure I still have a lot to learn.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:19 PM
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The one I recall was a 3-incher.
Brought to a local small-town PD training session by an outa-towner who said it was the new FBI gun.
Denis
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
Hi,
According to the Smith & Wesson book by Jim Supica & Richard Nahas the M13 evolved from the M10-6. The 10-6 was a prototype of the later model 13 chambered in 357. FBI issued the model 13 in 1974 and 1986 to 1987. The 13-1 was introduced for the N.Y.S.P in 1974. I have a model 13-2 4 inch made in the 1977 era. One of my favorite K frame magnums.
Howard
I don't think the FBI issued a Model 13 until very late 1980 or 1981. I came in in January 1980 and was issued a 2 1/2" model 10. When I graduated in May, they were still issuing the model 10's. I don't remember seeing any issue model 13's until 1981. They were all 3". This was the issue revolver until the Bureau began issuing semi automatic pistols.

Understand, I'm not saying that no FBI agent carried a model 13 before 1980 or 1981. Almost any steel frame 2" to 4"S&W revolver in .38 or .357 was authorized for purchase and carry by FBI agents as a Bureau Approved, Personally Owned Weapon (POW). It is entirely possible that there were many agents carrying Model 13's before they were actually issued by the FBI

Last edited by Calfed; 10-18-2010 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calfed View Post
I came in in January 1980 and was issued a 2 1/2" model 10.
I'm sorry for going off on a tangent, but I noticed that two members posted about being issued a 2 1/2" Model 10.

I've never seen a 2 1/2" Model 10 before. Does anyone have a picture of one?

I've seen 2", 3" and 4" barrels, but never a 2 1/2". I must admit that I am surprised to hear of such a barrel length because I would have assumed that if the FBI used it, S&W would have made some for public consumption.

Thank you.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calfed View Post
I don't think the FBI issued a Model 13 until very late 1980 or 1981. I came in in January 1980 and was issued a 2 1/2" model 10. When I graduated in May, they were still issuing the model 10's. I don't remember seeing any issue model 13's until 1981. They were all 3". This was the issue revolver until the Bureau began issuing semi automatic pistols.

Understand, I'm not saying that no FBI agent carried a model 13 before 1980 or 1981. Almost any steel frame 2" to 4"S&W revolver in .38 or .357 was authorized for purchase and carry by FBI agents as a Bureau Approved, Personally Owned Weapon (POW). It is entirely possible that there were many agents carrying Model 13's before they were actually issued by the FBI
You are probably right. I was quoting the S&W book. Myself, I did not think the FBI used them until the 1980s. Beening that you work for the Bureau you saw them. I not a expert on the model 13. All I know is I love my 13-2 4 inch. It was made in the 1977 period and was used quite a bit by LE. Not as well known as the M19/M66 and of course the M10 but I have always like the fixed sight service revolvers whether 357 or 38. I even have a Ruger Police Service Six 4 inch that was also used by LE and Security agencies. A lot like the model 13.
Thanks,
Howard
Here are my service revolvers:

M&P 38 special 4 inch tapered barrel

Model 13 4 inch

Model 10 4 inch heavy barrel

Ruger Police Service Six 4 inch

Last edited by roaddog28; 10-18-2010 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:49 PM
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Here ya go.....
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Old 10-18-2010, 08:09 PM
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I was never in federal service, so I don't know anything about it, but I did have a Model 10 with a two/two and a half inch barrel. I bought for one of my investigators when I had a private agency. I never got to shoot it, but he loved it.

Along the same line, though, when I bought my 4013Tactical I was told they were very hard to come by because so many FBI agents were purchasing them? Any truth in that statement?

Thanks.
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Old 10-18-2010, 08:55 PM
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A couple of FBI Agents certified me as a Firearms instructor when I was a SC Deputy Sheriff. This was right about 1994 or so. They were carrying autos but one of the instructors loaned me his issue M-13 3" for the revolver portion of the course. He told me that he was allowed to hold on to it because he was an instructor. So at least a few agents still had revolvers in the 90s.
I now own a similar M-13. A more perfect carry revolver is difficult to conceive.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:24 AM
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I'm not sure whether S&W sold the 2 1/2" model 10 to civilians or not. Here is another pic of one

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Old 10-19-2010, 12:36 AM
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Roaddog, those are some fine looking revovlers
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  #29  
Old 10-19-2010, 12:39 AM
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Roaddog, those are some fine looking revolvers.

I must confess a weakness for 3" revolvers, but carried a round butt, 4" model 19 for several years before getting a 3" model 66. I sure wish I kept that model 19--it was a sweet shooter.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC4013 View Post
I was never in federal service, so I don't know anything about it, but I did have a Model 10 with a two/two and a half inch barrel. I bought for one of my investigators when I had a private agency. I never got to shoot it, but he loved it.

Along the same line, though, when I bought my 4013Tactical I was told they were very hard to come by because so many FBI agents were purchasing them? Any truth in that statement?

Thanks.
JC, I can't say for sure about the 4013T. I know for a time, right after the Bureau authorized POW semi's there was a flood of agents buying any semi they could find. I bought a S&W 3913 that I still have and like very much.

It is certainly possible that other agents bought the 4013T, while S&W semi's were still being authorized.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:51 AM
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A couple of FBI Agents certified me as a Firearms instructor when I was a SC Deputy Sheriff. This was right about 1994 or so. They were carrying autos but one of the instructors loaned me his issue M-13 3" for the revolver portion of the course. He told me that he was allowed to hold on to it because he was an instructor. So at least a few agents still had revolvers in the 90s.
I now own a similar M-13. A more perfect carry revolver is difficult to conceive.
Kitch, I can't remember when they finally threw a rope around my neck and made me turn in my 2 1/2 " model 10. It would have been sometime in the mid 90's. However, I still carried my POW revolvers until 2006 or 2007-when the Bureau finally pulled the plug on any agent carrying even a POW revolver. Anyone that had a POW model 13--and I know a few guys who bought one, because they couldn't get the Bureau to issue them one-could theoretically still have been carrying them till 2006 or 2007

I also know that Firearms Instructors had a wider latitude in what they could obtain and hold onto than a street agent like myself

Last edited by Calfed; 10-19-2010 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:47 AM
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This forum is an absolute cure for anything resembling Big Head Syndrome. I thought I knew K frames pretty well but I've never seen or heard of a 2.5" M-10. The pictures posted here are the first I've ever seen. Thanks to the posters for the info, though it may cost me (a 2.5" 10 is now on The List).

I've never been in law enforcement, but I can understand the FBI decision on revolvers given their circumstances. More than once in my life I've sat across a desk from a bunch of angry supervisors or union officials (and sometimes both supervisors and union guys...when they storm into your office together, you have a problem), and all I could to say to their legitimate objections was "Look guys, I've only got so much money to work with here...". That's just the way it works out sometimes
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:09 PM
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I was off by two years in my previous post. I dug out my certificate for my FBI instructor's school. It was July 1981 when I took the course. SA Cal Darst and SA JJ Jensen from the Anchorage office had just returned from the FBI instructor's school in Quantico. The showed us their newly issued three inch 13s. At the time fixed sight guns were thought of as poor man's guns. Everybody in the class considered the 13s a step backward for the FBI as the Model 66 was considered the ultimate cop gun back then.

A third instructor, SA Billy Andrews was on FBI swat so he had the coveted NIS four inch round butt Model 19 with the yellow front sight. It wasn't a 66 but it was pretty cool with the grip adapter and all. He tried to buy the gun when he retired but they made him return it to Quantico. It's probably a pencil holder now.
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:17 PM
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Love this historical thread !!
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
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I'm not sure whether S&W sold the 2 1/2" model 10 to civilians or not. Here is another pic of one

Be still, my beating heart....I have never seen one in person. Nice!!!
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:44 AM
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I hope I didn't miss this, but I'd like to ask the former agents, what round was required/carried in the Model 13's? I'm curious as to whether it was a .357 round or a .38+P round. I saw the comments on wadcutters when talking about the S&W Model 60's, but am wondering about the M13's?
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:30 PM
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During my time with the FBI (1980-2009), I was issued two types of .38 ammunition. The standard issue round when I first started was the 158 grain lead semi wadcutter +P hollowpoints. Later, probably in the early 90's, I was issued 147 grain Federal hydra-shok +P+. This is all I ever carried in any of my .357 magnum revolvers.




Magnum ammunition was generally not carried in the gun, but could be carried for reloading. I was never issued any magnum ammo, but the few guys who were had either Winchester-Western or Federal 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter, non hollowpoint.

Last edited by Calfed; 07-14-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
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The standard issue round when I first started was the 158 grain lead semi wadcutter +P hollowpoints.
Thanks Calfed. I think that load used to be referred to as "The F.B.I. Load." That's always been my preferred load just based on the literature I've read by Ayoob, Marshall, Sanow, and others. It's interesting that most agents didn't carry .357 Mag fodder in their .357's, but I'm guessing it was because of the excessive muzzle blast and noise in short-barreled guns. Most people seem to be more accurate with the .38 +P's. Thanks again for the info and the photos.

Last edited by texagun; 07-14-2013 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:30 PM
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1981 to about 1988.

According to this article, the public announcement about the FBI adopting the 3 inch Model 13 was "last summer," which would make adoption sometime during 1981. See page 32:


After the Miami shootout in 1987, FBI briefly went to SIG 9mm pistols using the OSM load (Olin Super Match) until the ammo testing protocols were developed and a cartridge and pistol were selected to replace the issue revolver. The SIG 9mm/OSM load was a "stop-gap" until adoption of the 10mm and the S&W 1076.
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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present Thread, What years did the FBI issue the Model 13? in Smith & Wesson Revolvers; Anyone know the range?...
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