Use of 110 gr .357 in Model 65

[FiveG]

I have a couple of three inch Model 65s, which I consider the ideal carry revolver. Sadly, they are irreplaceable. Over the years, my primary round for them -- practice and carry -- has been 110 grain Winchester White Box .357 Magnum. Of course, I made that decision probably ten years ago, and I guess maybe things have changed?

Problem is, I've got a boatload of boxes of the stuff, which I'd prefer to continue to use until used up. I've read in various places that light, high velocity .357 rounds are/can be harmful to K-frames, and I don't want to destroy two revolvers -- let alone two revolvers that I can't replace. What I don't know, however, is whether these rounds in particular are likely to cause damage to these wheel guns.

So, my question is: does anyone have insight into whether my continued use of the 110 gr .357 is likely to damage these Model 65s?

Thanks.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by FiveG

I have a couple of three inch Model 65s, which I consider the ideal carry revolver. Sadly, they are irreplaceable. Over the years, my primary round for them -- practice and carry -- has been 110 grain Winchester White Box .357 Magnum. Of course, I made that decision probably ten years ago, and I guess maybe things have changed?

Problem is, I've got a boatload of boxes of the stuff, which I'd prefer to continue to use until used up. I've read in various places that light, high velocity .357 rounds are/can be harmful to K-frames, and I don't want to destroy two revolvers -- let alone two revolvers that I can't replace. What I don't know, however, is whether these rounds in particular are likely to cause damage to these wheel guns.

So, my question is: does anyone have insight into whether my continued use of the 110 gr .357 is likely to damage these Model 65s?

Thanks.

I've owned a few k frame magnums and generally stayed away from the 110 and 125 grains ammo, but I seem to recall looking up the data on winchester white box and seeing it was pretty mild. I'd keep that forcing come spotless though.

S&w no longer has barrels for the k frame magnums, so I'd consider trying to sell the ammo, though. I think you'd be fine using it, but I don't know if I'd chance it.

[bamabiker]

Good reason to buy a L or N frame 357.

[Geno44]

Originally Posted by bamabiker

Good reason to buy a L or N frame 357.

This is the correct answer!

[Hapworth]

You have a pair. I'd make one a dedicated carry shooter. It can be a challenge to repair and replace out-of-issue Ks, depending on the problem, but it's far from impossible, and mostly quite doable.

The light grain loads theorized (though never proven) to damage K-frame forcing cones were all very hot, especially by today's standards.

I agree with kbm6893 -- determining how hot the Winchester loads are in your 65s would go a long way to deciding if you should continue using them. If mid-power, I'd continue. If hot, sell and move to a modern, mid-power .357 defense round like Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, Remington Golden Saber or CorBon DPX.

Alternately, pick any one of the great .38 Special defense rounds out there and rest easy.

Here's a good read on the putative K-frame forcing cone issue:

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums

[FiveG]

Originally Posted by Hapworth

The light grain loads theorized (though never proven) to damage K-frame forcing cones were all very hot, especially by today's standards.

I agree with kbm6893 -- determining how hot the Winchester loads are in your 65s would go a long way to deciding if you should continue using them.

Thanks! Do you have suggestions on how to look up the "hotness" as it would apply to this issue?

[BAM-BAM]

Originally Posted by bamabiker

Good reason to buy a L or N frame 357.

+1 on this ...... 686/586....... 50 years after it introduction S&W came up with the best .357 magnum Police revolver by blending the best features of the K and N Frames.

K-frames are still the best for concealed carry.... especially with some of the new short barrel loads in the 130-140 gr range...... if TEOTWAWTI happens you want a L-Frame.

[BAM-BAM]

Originally Posted by FiveG

Thanks! Do you have suggestions on how to look up the "hotness" as it would apply to this issue?

Go to Winchester's web site and see if they publish that's loads "Feet per second" velocity ..........

Help me here guys....... what would be hot....... anything over..... 1250-1300FPS for a 110?????

[FiveG]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

+1 on this ...... 686/586....... 50 years after it introduction S&W came up with the best .357 magnum Police revolver by blending the best features of the K and N Frames.

Perhaps a good theoretical (i.e., money's no object, toss what you got) answer, but I'm hoping to get insight with respect to the system I use -- for concealed carry.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by FiveG

Thanks! Do you have suggestions on how to look up the "hotness" as it would apply to this issue?

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

Go to Winchester's web site and see if they publish that's loads "Feet per second" velocity ..........

Help me here guys....... what would be hot....... anything over..... 1250-1300FPS for a 110?????

I think BAM-BAM's got a good start here. I'd add that it should be determined what type and length of barrel Winchester uses to get its data; an eight inch test barrel's going to get greater velocity/lbs than a three inch K, so adjusting accordingly is needed to make an informed decision.

Chrono-ing yourself with the specific load and revolver would be ideal. Alternately, look for chrono results done by others with that specific load and revolver.

I'm in a little murky territory here and would suggest asking the experts in the reloading section, but I too would look to something under 1250ft/sec out of a three inch barrel to be considered a mid-level magnum.

[BigBill]

I had a 1975 colt python in 357mag. I tested 125gr, 140gr, 148gr, 158gr bullets in my reloads. For some reason it shot high at 25yds. So I tried it at 100yds with my 140gr reloads. I found out I could make pinpoint shots at 100yds and hit any small rock that I could see. The 140gr Speer jhp bullet with 2400 powder seems to be a sweet spot for the 6" barrel. One much know it's ballistic limitations. I can't wait the try my S&W m28/m27 with the same loads.

[Groo01]

Groo here
The load that caused problems were the full pressure
125gr [ like remington express] flam throwers.
The 110gr were loaded to lower pressures and speeds.
Something to do with internal volume, bullet weight,and
powder's of the time [ like 296 WW].
I doubt your 110 gr will cause much trouble.
You do pratice with handloads right?????

[FiveG]

Originally Posted by Hapworth

I'm in a little murky territory here and would suggest asking the experts in the reloading section, but I too would look to something under 1250ft/sec out of a three inch barrel to be considered a mid-level magnum.

The numbers I'm seeing quoted for this particular round are 1295 fps, but I don't think those are from a three-inch barrel. 357 Magnum Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

CorBon's 110 gr has been chrono'ed at 1109 fps out of a three inch barrel. BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .357 Mag Results

I'd assume the CorBon is hotter than Winchester white box(?). So with all that in mind, I have to believe we're not higher than 1110 fps using the WinUSA in my 3-inch Model 65.

[BAM-BAM]

BBTI chart;

look at the 125 grain loads at 1500-1700ft/sec out of 4-6 inch barrels....... IMHO those are the "hot loads" to avoid out of a Kframe.

The 158gr load..... at 1300-1400 (4-6") were never a problem in the K-frame.

I would agree with your assesment that you will be OK with the 110s

[derek45auto]

I avoid 110gr and 125gr. Magnum in my K-frames

( when you crack the forcing cone, S&W will not have a replacement barrel for you )

Get some 140-158gr, or like others said, get a 686

[kaaskop49]

Originally Posted by Groo01

Groo here
The load that caused problems were the full pressure
125gr [ like remington express] flam throwers.
The 110gr were loaded to lower pressures and speeds.
Something to do with internal volume, bullet weight,and
powder's of the time [ like 296 WW].
I doubt your 110 gr will cause much trouble.

IMO, my forum buddy Groo hits the nail on the head here. In the 1970s and 80s, the 110gr .357 load of whatever mfgr was recognized as suitable for both short-barrel mags (the 110gr would develop MV at which it would more likely expand), and in medium frame mags (it was loaded lighter than the 125gr planet wreckers and recoiled less than 158gr loads).

I would not hesitate to use it in any steel frame Mag. There can be a problem in the scandium frame guns, either with crimp jump or wear on the frame or cylinder from the 110gr load's faster burning powders. Other posters can be more specific in this area.

Otherwise, if it's American-made in a factory box and matches the caliber of the firearm, I shoot it without worry. Best wishes for a happy holiday!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

[jeeps]

The ww 110gr. 357 personal defense is 1280fps mild and will not hurt wour K-frame just the perp D.O.A.

[ralph7]

I agree with the sentiments of others in that the 110 grain loaded cartridges won't hurt the guns.

My question is why load a 110 grain MAGNUM slower than a heavier bullet? What is the advantage here? I would think that light bullet should be doing at least 1400fps to be a legitimate deal.

[BAM-BAM]

You get a hot Treasury load.......... ++P+

[kaaskop49]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

You get a hot Treasury load.......... ++P+

Another nail on the head. An even bigger one!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

[jeeps]

on the street,357 Magnum Stopping Power

[Groo01]

Originally Posted by ralph7

I agree with the sentiments of others in that the 110 grain loaded cartridges won't hurt the guns.

My question is why load a 110 grain MAGNUM slower than a heavier bullet? What is the advantage here? I would think that light bullet should be doing at least 1400fps to be a legitimate deal.

Groo here
One of the reasons the 110 is slower is ,
The bullet has low weight and the powder can not get up enough pressure to burn well with the likes of 296/H110.
The 125 is just enough heaver/longer/and higher bullet pull to make the difference.
That could also be why the FBI 110 load worked so well as it was put
up in the shorter 38spec case.
The short case helped with the shorter ejector rods on their
short barrel guns.

[jeeps]

Yes the 38spec.+P+ 110gr. was good too.

[BAM-BAM]

Originally Posted by Groo01

Groo here

That could also be why the FBI 110 load worked so well as it was put
up in the shorter 38spec case.
The short case helped with the shorter ejector rods on their
short barrel guns.

Grooo....what are you implying here?????

[ironhead7544]

I dont think the 110 gr load will hurt the M65. If you are worried, just use the 38 Special for practice and save the 357 Magnum loads for carry.

[Groo01]

Originally Posted by BAM-BAM

Grooo....what are you implying here?????

Groo here
At one time the FBI carried 3in and 2 1/2 357mag revolvers.
The ejector rods were of the short type that would not
remove a magnum case .
The result was the FBI load.
A high pressure 38sp [ like 38 +p+ or mid range 357]
that they were not allowed to give to anyone else.
The load was a 357 in a 38 case and the shorter case allowed easier
ejection.
As was told by G Gorden Liddy on radio and my father's friend
Who was an FBI firearms instructor.

[BAM-BAM]

The issue 3" Model 13s that were designed/made for the FBI have full length ejector rods........ one of the reasons for going to the 3" barrel.

Same with the earlier 3.5 inch 27s that many carried.... when men were men and the .357 round was the original hot .357...... + 1500 FPS.

True back in the day "personal" weapons were approved.... and what's not to like about a 2.5" Model 19. Standard practice was to point the muzzle up and slap the ejector rod with the palm of your hand.

The .38 sp +P and later+P+ were the invention of the late 60s / early 70s to get a "better" AP round for Agencies and Police Departments..... that "politically"....couldn't; or didn't want the PR issues, of officers carrying (OMG) .357 MAGNUMS!!!!!!!!!!!! At the time many/maybe most PD's were still carrying 158gr round nose lead rounds.

Most of the +Ps and +P+s I remember were 125gr SJHPs! Super Vel......at almost magnum velocity.

The 110 load was the "Treasury load/round" as they were the first Agency to adopt it.

Still have some of my Dad's (Police Captain) boxes; they had all sorts of restricted distribution warnings. They are head-stamped as .38 sp +P or .38 spl. +P+. I got a box(s) when I got my first 2.5" 19....

The big fear was someone using them in a pre-war .38 ...... and ka-boom!!!! Back in those days many Officers carried the same revolver..... for their entire lives.