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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 07-05-2010, 08:26 PM
pittspilot pittspilot is offline
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Default 586 Locked Up

I am having the worst luck with guns lately. I don't even want to go into my Dan Wesson issues.

Shooting my 1983 Nickel 586 (no dash) (also no mod) with Magtech 158 grain .357 and right after a shot, the cylinder locks up. Can't cock it, can't pull the trigger, can't open the cylinder.

I checked the front most screw to see if it was loose, and it is not. So, thoughts? Could it be the lockup that is fixed with the mod? I have never heard of a 586 going down with this, and I understood the problem to occur with the hot loaded 110's, not the moderately loaded 158's.

I am a little nervous futzing with it because the gun it loaded. The hammer is down on a spent round, but there are live ones to follow.

BTW, this also begs a question about shipping it back to S&W, which is what I am likely to do. How do you certify that the gun is not loaded, as required by federal law, when it is, and you cannot unload it?

Thanks for your time.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:35 PM
maccpd maccpd is offline
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I think you need to contact Smith and see what they say. Is there any chance that the tip/bullet of one of the other rounds walked forward and are binding the cylinder?
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:39 PM
ImprovedModel56Fan ImprovedModel56Fan is offline
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Myself, I would probably fix it myself, don't know yet how, because I'm not sure what's going on. But I've had dozens of Smiths apart for cleaning, parts exchange, and minor repair. If you haven't, I strongly recommend finding a good gunsmith, simply because it's loaded.

If you have some experience with disassembling Smiths, you might post this in the gunsmithing section. Just remember that during every single step of the operation, you have to have that thing pointed where you'll get over it if it discharges.

P.S. Obviously, check first as Mac suggests.

Last edited by ImprovedModel56Fan; 07-05-2010 at 08:41 PM. Reason: P.S.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:47 PM
pittspilot pittspilot is offline
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I don't think its a round walked out. The round under the hammer is spent. I can see that the other rounds are back. I don't know if its my imagination but it seems like the rear of the rounds on the right side of the gun (the side opposite from the side that the cylinder swings out to) are contacting the frame. The fit seems tighter than usual.

I think I will see what Mack says. I also have a good Smith Gunsmith nearby named Nelson Ford.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:03 PM
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did the hammer come back to the rebound position? I think the original recall was for primers flowing back into the recoil shield because it was a sloppy fit with the firing pin. The hammer may be stuck in a position that keeps the cylinder from opening.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittspilot View Post
I don't think its a round walked out. The round under the hammer is spent. I can see that the other rounds are back. I don't know if its my imagination but it seems like the rear of the rounds on the right side of the gun (the side opposite from the side that the cylinder swings out to) are contacting the frame. The fit seems tighter than usual.

I think I will see what Mack says. I also have a good Smith Gunsmith nearby named Nelson Ford.
What end of the earth are you on? There may be a knowledgeable forum member nearby that can 'unstuck it' for ya....maybe just for a cold drink and some burned beef
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:07 PM
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Try tightening the ejector rod; it has a left-hand thread, so pointing the muzzle away from you turn it to the right. The unfired rounds should not bind the cylinder unless they went in tight, so it is possible the primer on the fired round "flowed back" and tied up the cylinder, which was the reason for the M recall. Good luck and be careful.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:10 PM
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OK, I got the cylinder out by slight cocking the hammer back and then moving the cylinder forward while pulling back on the cylinder release. Took a bit of force.

The spent primer on the round under the hammer had an "outie" and that seems to be what jammed the gun up because it seems fine now, although I am going to have to test fire it to see.

Is that an incidence of the primer flowing back?

Thanks for everyones' thoughts. Isn't the innerweb wonderful?
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:13 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Default I've been there, done that!

I had this problem when a primer flowed back into the firing pin's hole in my Taurus 605's recoil shield. You, or a gunsmith, need to disassemble the gun's lockwork (be sure you know what you're doing when you remove the side plate, or you'll booger it up), take a punch of the proper diameter and tap the primer back forward and out of the hole. This will free up the gun. After that send it in for the "M stamp".

When this happened to my Taurus, it was the carry ammo that I'd had in the gun for the last six months. The first round tied up the gun, yet people think I'm crazy for carrying more than one revolver.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:24 PM
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Yeah, I think I will be sending it back. The nickle finish has a flake, and it will be a good opportunity to refinish the gun.

I thought the incidences of this flowback on the 586's were extremely rare. Figures that this is the lottery I win.
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  #11  
Old 07-05-2010, 10:07 PM
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The problem with the firing pin and bushing was on all 4 models of L frame guns, 586, 686, 581, 681. The cure is to have S&W replace both. They are still doing this under their recall.

There was no specific ammunition loading that caused the problem. I had it with several different factory loads. S&W didn't diagnose the cause for quite a while (the recall mentioned was in 1987). When I had a new 4 incher (s/n prefix ABD ) do this back in 1983-1984, I had the dealer send it in for warranty work. Twice, the factory service center could find nothing out of their specs and returned it, saying they were unable to duplicate the problem. Winchester's Silvertip loading was taking a lot of the blame for it in law enforcement circles. I spoke with the law enforcement sales manager at S&W a couple of times, and with Winchester's counterpart. There was some finger pointing going on. I traded it back to the dealer in January, 1985 for another new 4 incher (s/n prefix AEJ ). This gun never had the primer flow lock-up happen, even with the same ammunition that did it to the early gun, even from the same lot numbers of ammo. The first L frame I bought, a 6 incher I still have, s/n prefix ABB, bought new in February 1983, has never done it, either. A good friend has an early 4 inch blue 586 he bought new. It doesn't do it.

Some early guns would do what yours did, most didn't, blue, nickel or stainless. It can happen with lots of different kinds of ammo, too.

S&W will send you a pre-paid mailing sticker, fix the gun and return it to you for free. It is an offer you should take them up on since yours has the problem.

I think the reason you hear about it with 686's more than 586's, or either fixed sight variant, is because the stainless steel 686 was the hottest seller and was manufactured in much bigger numbers than the other L frames. There are simply more of them out there.

Last edited by BUFF; 07-05-2010 at 10:18 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:30 PM
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Buff,

Thanks for the information.
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2010, 01:26 PM
Skeeziks Skeeziks is offline
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Could someone describe to me what happens when a primer "flows back," and is it the fault of the firearm or is it the ammo?
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Old 07-06-2010, 05:20 PM
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I had the same problem as the OP back when the Model 686 first came out in 1980. I traded my Model 28 for the newer 686. I thought it was something I was doing wrong, so I traded the gun in on something else - it was so long ago I can't remember what. The primer actually backed out of the primer hole, and locked up the gun. I fiddled with it and got the cylinder open. Again, I can't remember exactly how.

No one told me about any recalls until many years later.

The wife and I share this Model 586 no dash which we bought a couple years back, and we shoot magnums it it with no problems, so far. It has never had the recall work done:


Also, like the OP, I've had my share of Dan Wesson issues as well. I've had a Monson made 715-2 Dan Wesson, which has not worked right since I bought it new in 1976. I finally got the damn thing fixed a couple years ago, when I finally found a decent gun smith. He said it came from the factory with so many internal burrs it was locking up the mechanism.

I also had two separate Model 29s go out of time so badly they locked up solid. I've had such bad luck with revolvers that, for a long time my main gun was a Ruger Blackhack in .45 Colt. Single actions always go bang!
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:02 PM
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Why are there so many incidents of primers backing out? What causes a primer to back out?
Is it much more common with hand-loaded ammo?
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2010, 06:31 PM
Skeeziks Skeeziks is offline
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Back to the top....
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  #17  
Old 07-07-2010, 07:40 PM
flop-shank flop-shank is offline
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Skeeziks, since no one has answered, I'll take my best shot. I'm also curious to know what others have learned about this problem.

So far as I know, primer flow back can be caused by two things. The first would be by having a bushing hole that's too big and the pressure bulges out the inadequately supported primer. This is the case with the S&W L frame recall I believe.

The second cause is when the primer hole in the brass is too tight. This is what I ran into. The folks at Remington told me that when the ammo is fired, normally the primer slides back in it's pocket until it hits the recoil shield, or firing pin bushing. As pressure drops, the case releases from the cylinder wall and recoils back, reseating the primer. In my case, the tight pockets inhibited the primer from sliding back properly and the high pressure of the .357 magnum caused the primer to swell back into the firing pin's hole.

FWIW, the fine folks at Remington were great to deal with. Standing behind their product, they replaced my entire case of ammo.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:14 PM
Skeeziks Skeeziks is offline
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Too tight primer pockets not allowing the primer to be re-seated.... I don't know why I didn't think of that for myself.

Thanks again, Flopster.

~ But, I assume this is only a problem when firing .357 mag.?
It doesn't happen with .38 Sp., does it?
Also...my shootin' iron is a 686-4, so I'm safe with the bushing hole.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:28 PM
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Your lucky to have had this experience now as it is a learning situation and not a matter of life or death. Could have been real bad. Kyle
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeeziks View Post
Too tight primer pockets not allowing the primer to be re-seated.... I don't know why I didn't think of that for myself.
Actually, I think the primer bulges and flows before it can start sliding.
Quote:
Thanks again, Flopster.
You're most welcome!
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~ But, I assume this is only a problem when firing .357 mag.?
It doesn't happen with .38 Sp., does it?
Also...my shootin' iron is a 686-4, so I'm safe with the bushing hole.
I'm no authority on this stuff, but I would think it would take some very serious doing to have such trouble with .38 ammo. The load that caused my lock up was R357M1 (Rem. .357 125 gr. SJHP). A load like that runs at much higher pressure and would use a case full (maybe a compressed charge) of slow burning powder as well a magnum primer. It's just a whole different animal.

Also of interest was that forum member Nitesite had some ammo from the same lot. He had previously started a thread about the very high velocity he got with his 6" Ruger with that load. IIRC, it was nicely over 1600 fps. and around 730 foot pounds The folks at Remington tested my problem ammo and said that the velocity was out of spec./too high. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pressure is out of tolerance, but I certainly wonder if it was as well.
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Old 07-08-2010, 12:05 AM
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I have a 581 and a 586 (both no-dashes) that do not have the "M" overstamp indicating a return to the factory for the new firing pin bushing.

My 586 has never exhibited this problem but my 581 has several times with stout 158 grain loads. Never gives me any trouble with .38 Specials.

--Neill
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:57 PM
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I was on the range a couple of years ago and a fellow shooter locked his 586 up shooting Rem mags. Primer flow was the problem. Had to force the cylinder open and shear off the stuck portion of the primer. Gun was used and the guy had just bought it when it jammed.
CraigJ
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  #23  
Old 07-13-2010, 09:15 AM
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Just a simple tip for those not familiar with revolver peculiarities.......

I always carry a soft toothbrush in My range bag, and it's used for cleaning un-burnt powder residue from under the extractor star, when shooting at the range.

Residue under the extractor, coupled together with a back flowing primer, can cause multiple cylinder function issues.......such as rotational problems, and opening/closing difficulties.
FWIW: Problems related to powder residue lodged under the extractor star, is not limited to only S&W 586 revolvers, but rather all makes and models of revolvers.

Hope that Your 586 issues are resolved quickly, so You can enjoy that superb S&W handgun!

~MMN
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2018, 02:17 AM
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Default 586 lock up

Bought my 586 no years ago, and have had this problem w/ it locking up from day one.. Doesn't matter if its a light 38 or a 38+P or a magnum , it does it on all of them...
Didn't want to send it in cause I was afraid it might get scuffed or scratched up in the process of getting fixed..
My thoughts were that maybe someone would tell me how to fix it myself...????
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Old 12-27-2018, 02:34 AM
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Now that the revolver is unloaded I strongly recommend that you send it to S&W to have the modification done. It is a good bet that it is the fix needed. You have nothing to lose by sending it in. They may also fix any other problem that contributed to the lock up.
Jim
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:05 AM
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It's alive!!!

Too bad we never saw the resolution of the issue.

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Old 12-27-2018, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepsez19 View Post
Bought my 586 no years ago, and have had this problem w/ it locking up from day one.. Doesn't matter if its a light 38 or a 38+P or a magnum , it does it on all of them...
Didn't want to send it in cause I was afraid it might get scuffed or scratched up in the process of getting fixed..
My thoughts were that maybe someone would tell me how to fix it myself...????
The firing pin bushing needs replaced. It is press fit into the frame. Open the cylinder and look at the recoil shield where the firing pin come through. The little circle of metal there is what needs replaced. Old pressed out, new pressed in. Not a home work shop project for most people. Package it up and send it in.
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357 magnum, 581, 586, 681, 686, colt, dan wesson, ejector, extractor, gunsmith, l frame, lock, model 28, model 686, primer, remington, ruger, taurus, winchester

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