I would not believe it if I had not seen it with my own eyes. The 627 PC that Jerry Miculek uses for competing in IRC (.38 Special, with Bushnell Holosight) has had the locking flag removed.

Say what you will about the pros and cons, this is quite an interesting find. The picture is on his website:
Jerry's Equipment :: Revolvers & Shotguns : Bang Inc., If it goes bang, we shoot it!

Scroll down to the IRC revolver with the Bushnell Holosight on it and look at the close up picture showing the cylinder cut for moon clips here:
http://www.bang-inc.com/images/gunsg...nder.large.jpg

One can clearly see that the locking flag has been removed from the mechanism. I can spot this as I have done it to one of my frequent carry revolvers. The locking key hole is still in place, yet the flag that locks the hammer is gone... rock on Jerry.

When I first looked I couldn't see it. However, I clicked on the picture and on the "blow up" I can clearly see it.

Now how about THAT??!!

Dale53

he he, do you think theres a reason me did that?

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

Jerry ain't no dummy.

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Centennial Every Day

So how many people sent that to S&W do you suppose

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Forum consigliere

I may have been the first to discover it with uncontested evidence. (being humble)

However, I would not send it to Smith and Wesson. Jerry is a fine sportsman and I do not wish him problems with his contractual obligations. However, Smith should recognize the folly of their ways...

I think this also answers another often asked question; Is it ok to remove the flag only, or will the other parts rattle around inside the gun? I would assume his gun gets shot a lot more than mine, and he would have found out a long time ago if this was possible, so it looks like it's safe to leave the lock part in.

Looking at that picture, I would say all the lock guts have been removed, not just the flag.

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Centennial Every Day

If you are going to remove the flag why would you take a chance leaving the guts in there? Make so sense to me

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Dom

I've looked at the parts, and I just can't see where the parts would go. They appear to be held in place by the hammer.

I agree. In my opinion if one wishes to disable the lock they should simply grind the little tab off the flag and replace it in the gun.

Thanks Steve!

That is a great catch!

You have, in a way, confirmed my thoughts on if a true pro, (which Mr. Miculek clearly is...) had to deal with that growingly unpopular lock what would his solution be?

I know, I know: another lock-hater...

I realize there's a 98% chance I would never have a problem with a IL model...it's just that 2% that itches.

IMHO it's a shame because S&W is making some of the nicest variants of their wheel guns right now...today.

Anyway...thank you for the interesting post.

It must be trick photo. There is no way he would modify a perfectly engineered, hand-built revolver.

Think someone will tally tale on him....

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NRA Benefactor Member

I do not really have a big problem with the lock, as I have removed it from my two every day carry pieces.

I agree with the 500 mag guy that the new wheel guns are fantastic... The modern materials, quality workmanship and machining are cutting edge. I have recently acquired a 327 M&P R8 and it is truly a legendary weapon.

I wanted the community to know the pedestrian observation I made regarding the stupid locking flag, and clearly achieved my goal. In short, I think the lock sucks. However, I am glad that the Smith engineers made it easily circumventable.

Of course the internal parts are held in place by the hammer etc. but so is the flag. The whole storage-safety internal lock works fine, as long as it does. And of course, when things go wrong, it's parts can and HAVE BEEN SHOWN to jam the gun. But then, if they are removed entirely, they can't.

I have one Airweight left in the collection that came from the factory with the lock. I took all of the lock parts out. No more worries.

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Centennial Every Day

It would be funny if S&W actually did that for him, cause it would be terrible PR if his gun had an ILF during a highly publicized match. They wouldn't want that to happen, so maybe they 'doctored' the locks on this competition guns. Better to have a little negative PR over the fact that Jerry doesn't like the locks, than to have the whole world see a great shooter have a lock failure during a match.

Maybe S&W is getting wise to the fact that their revolvers look better without the internal lock. Even if it means leaving an open hole in the side of the frame.

It turns out to be a great place to put a drop of oil every once in a while. The "L" stands for "Lube"

You have to remember that S&W is in the business to make money. In order to stay in business and be able to sell their product in all 50 states, they must comply with some of the draconian gun laws that exist in this country. Especially since they are based right here in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts.

I do find it interesting though that the lock system,that some states require, is so easily removed without special tools or cutting torches. Maybe S&W isn't so dumb after all???

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James Redfield
LM #497

Just remember, once you remove or alter the lock, you have to send it to Smith Wesson to have a new one installed. They will not sell the flag or lock parts to anyone.

I know your asking "why would you put the lock back in", well, when and if you trade your gun to a dealer. He/She will have to send it to S/W to be repaired due to liablity issues when they sell it.

It's about 60.00 per gun.

I am a competition revolver shooter and have been for 20 years. I have shot matches in the same squad with Jerry. First, he prepares his own competition revos so S&W did NOT take the lock out for him! Second, all of us take the locks out of our competition guns (also the hammer block). It's a simple matter of eliminating as many things that could go wrong as possible.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

makes sense.

As far as I know, ICORE and USPSA allow the removal of the lock. I was told that IDPA does not allow the removal, and I don't know what IPSC has to say about the lock. It would be interesting to see the 625 that he uses in IDPA.

Dave Sinko

My find was posted on the firearms blog:

Jerry Miculek de-locked his competition gun | The Firearm Blog

It's ok that the majority of shooters would remove the lock for those reasons, it makes perfect sense. But to have S&W's own champion revolver expert remove the lock speaks volumes as to his opinion of the lock and its chance for failure. That's a PR blunder for S&W.

And I've never shot with Jerry and am not disputing what you're saying about him working on his own guns. But I did see on Shooting USA an interview with the man in the Performance Center who does all of Jerry's trigger work on his competition guns. And I won't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure he said he goes over the whole revolver to get it the way Jerry likes it. Of course Jerry could always do more work to it once he gets it...

Not to be a wet blanket....Has anyone directly contacted Jerry himself to find out if what you are seeing is "what you are seeing"?

Just a thought. That should answer the question once and for all.

TLG

I haven't contacted Jerry, but if you look at the picture from the bottom link, showing the gun from the rear, it is quite clear that at least the flag is removed. I've seen a clearer picture of the left side of the gun, and it appears that it has been fully de-locked, but it is not as obvious as the missing flag.

If a lock were going to spontaneously tie up a gun, I can think of none more likely than Jerry's. I've seen him shoot in person, and we've all seen the videos. And perhaps more importantly, he KNOWS how they work, so he knows that the lock is a liability. Also, the flag creates a small amount of friction against the hammer, making the action less smooth. Anyone who has seen Jerry's revolversmithing video knows that Jerry is all about friction removal. It surprises me not one bit that his gun is de-locked.

Well and good....I have never seen Mr. Miculek shoot, (except on TV). I have no idea how to contact him myself and if I could I doubt my answer one way or the other would be beleived. The people on this forum don't know me. I just think that the original poster that started this should have tried to contact Mr. Miculek to verify this. If he disabled the lock, well and good. If he didn't, well and good. It just seems like Jerry Miculet is on trial here and he is the only person that hasn't had a say in what a picture is susposed to show.

TLG

Hold on a second. This is no persecution in any way shape or form. In fact, I applaud the actions of Jerry in de-locking his revolver.

I know Smith and Wessons very well, inside and out. It is clear in the photo I posted that came directly from Jerry's website that the lock flag was removed.

I did not contact Jerry because I see no need to do so. Anyone who wishes to do so, feel free. As far as I am concerned, he does not need to justify any modification to his property to myself or anyone else.

Really ! There is no law that says a gun owner cannot remove his IL.
Only the scare-threat that an enemy lawyer might/could use that action against the owner who did.

I would like to point out that the plugs that are so nicely made by several sellers are not an ideal rememdy for the hole. The entire reason for removing all the lock parts is to get rid of unnecessary parts inside the gun that may come loose in there. It is a partial cosmetic cure for the hole, but partially defeats the purpose of taking the parts out, to put other parts back in.

The hole is not a problem as seen in Jerry's gun, and the plug is only a cosmetic patch. If you are worried about that little hole in the side, you might as well tape over the muzzle, and put wax in the charge holes, still have openings in the gun behind the trigger, and at the top and bottom of the cylinder, and so forth, as well as the slot beside the hammer where the flag was removed. Revolvers are full of holes, gaps, slots, and openings, so what's the problem of the IL hole. Fuggadeboutit.

I think TLG must have just not read any of the post here, just the title, if he things anyone is putting Miculek on trial. If the posts here were read, one could easily see that we think he is in the same boat as us, dealing with the flippin lock. And I don't think calling up ole' jerry would be a very likely possibility. If you could even find a way to contact him, and actually speak to him, he probably couldn't 'officially' say anything about it, but I agree completely that it looks very obvious that his IL is not 'factory.'

Apparently the problem with the hole is that a lotta people don't like it and want to plug it up. And that is a good enough reason for me.

Thank You.....I read the entire post. Go to the web site that has the pictures. Send an email to Kacmi@cs.com See if you get an answer. It might take a while.

I said in my earlier post that I didn't care one way or the other. I just said the man should be able to tell the reason one way or the other. He is a shooter that is looked up to and should have the chance to tell his side. Pure and simple, that is all that I ment. You can read anything into this that you want to.

TLG

Why do you think that only the flag has been removed?

Here is a side view of apparently the same model 627PC revolver from the article showing the lock tumbler still in place:

http://www.bang-inc.com/images/gunsg...lver.large.jpg

The tumbler is held in place by a spring loaded yoke that basically performs a locking ring function as well as being a detent for the tumbler.

It is probably unlikely that the parts would come loose and jam up the revolver but why invite the possibility? There is always enough potential for Murphy's law to mess things up.

Maybe Jerry Miculek kept the tumbler so the lock removal modification would not be too obvious to viewers from the side

When you buy "the plug" it comes in a little zip lock bag, You can put the lock parts in that bag and drop it in the box the gun came with. If you ever wanted to sell that gun, the buyer would have the box, papers and the option to reinstall the lock if they need it.

The last sentence of the above quote explains in a nutshell why it is just "plain common sense" not to depend on a S&W revolver with that stupid lock..............the professionals know not to risk a competition on it, so why would any thinking person risk their life on one as a carry weapon or for home defense.

I fail to see how some people can continue to say they see no additional risk by depending on a S&W with that lock!!

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

So using your logic, we should remove the hammer blocks from our carry guns?

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Mark

The thing I took away from those pictures is Jerry needs to learn how to clean his guns better. Those puppies are filthy.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

That's another reason to not grind off the tab, or file down the post of the flag, but just remove the entire lot of IL parts, and store them for possible future re-installation, if you ever need to sell it to someone who wanted it in the gun again. But ruining the flag part will most likely require returning the gun to S&W to get a new one installed.

Anyone interested should read Grant Cunninghams blog on this topic. Regards 18DAI.

To clarify, the lock does not have to be re-installed by Smith&Wesson. If you have the parts removed and intact, undamaged, and unaltered, they can be re-installed by anyone who knows how, for instance the owner who removed them in the first place.

Yes, the guts can be put back in but it does try ones patience. That little spring and pitchfork are a devil to get back in.

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Centennial Every Day

Then I guess I better hold onto the half dozen of each size that they sold me over the phone direct with no questions asked. I just gave 'em the part numbers after looking it up on the parts diagram and they shipped. There are two sizes, one for J frames and one for the rest.

Just about as much devil as getting them out without damaging them, in the first place.

This is one more comment about the IL hole and the appearance aesthetics ( beauty ) of revolvers in general. Once you admit that the IL empty hole is not going to be a functional problem for your gun, it's about the looks.
The IL hole doesn't really do anything detrimental to the looks but what's in our heads. It's just one more hole in the gun. Well, let's admit that revolvers have a beauty to us that is borne of the "form follows function" attitude. Actually, they are not so good looking, as pure art goes. The reason we like the looks is that they are functionally so well developed. Other connotations are the potential power, the implied threat, the craftsmanship or precision, the design solution, the history, etc.

I am so happy to know that you can remove those Locks! Those are the one and only things I don't like with new S&W Revolvers. I am not familiar at all with the internal workings of S&W Revolvers, I would like know if they have after market parts that do not incorporate the locks? Like those for Colt 1911s. You can remove the Series 80 Firing Pin Lock system and install a Stainless Steel Shim in the frame and use Series 70 Parts. With regard to the hole in the frame perhaps a gunsmith could put a piece of steel in the hole by the same method/process they use to install barrel sleeves on rifle barrels. That would cover the hole and it would not easily come off.

Thank you

Nico

Do a search on this forum for "the plug". Such a device already exists.Here's a 627 Pro with "The Plug" installed:

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but in my opinion the empty hole in the side of a S&W revolver is kind of cool looking. It's almost like an anti-authoritarian protest in a very small way...perhaps almost like putting a Gadsden flag bumper sticker on your car to show others that you don't agree with all the stuff that is being forced upon Americans these days.

Anyway, that plug looks good for folks that don't like the lock and who don't want a politically placed hole in the side of their revolver either

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