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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 07-20-2010, 03:12 PM
caryg caryg is offline
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Default Model 60 38 special +P or not ?

Sorry about this question again. But I was reading an article by Chuck Hawks and He definetly said not to use +P ammo in model 60's. I asked this question before on here and the answer most gave was go ahead it would be ok. I am trying to get ahold of the new speer short barrel ammo in 38 +P but now I am kind of worried. I sure don't want to hurt my gun. Is it ok or not ok? Thanks again
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:52 PM
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I say use it. Some folks claim that the J-Frame gun has attributes that actually render it stronger than the larger K-Frame. These attributes are mainly connected with the positioning of the notches in the cylinder and with the forcing cone. I can see their point but simply don't know for certain. All of my J-Frame guns have a been shot with +P with no apparent harm.

+P ammunition is generally cost prohibitive to shoot in quantities that will promote excessive wear in a revolver. It also is not pleasant to shoot in J-Frame guns in my view. If a person is tough enough to enjoy it and has the money to burn off a lot of +P ammunition then he can easily afford replacement revolvers.

Some firing of a favored +P load for familiarization and verification of point-of-impact would be desirable. After that, carry the gun with the chosen load and only infrequently practice with it.

I use +P 158 grain lead SWCs which seem to shoot just an inch or so lower than standard velocity 158 grain ammunition in my .38s at reasonable self defense distances. The two loads shoot close enough that meaningful practice can be had with the cheaper and less energetic standard velocity ammunition.

Chuck Hawk isn't my favorite authority on all things connected with firearms but that is only personal opinion.

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Old 07-20-2010, 04:05 PM
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You mean the same Model 60 they make a 357 Magnum version of? Yes, it definitely cannot shoot 38 special +p.
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:18 PM
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Chuck Hawks is a moron IMHO.Shoot 'em![not him,the ammo!]
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Old 07-20-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
I was reading an article by Chuck Hawks and..
..

Well, there's your problem right there!

Who you gonna believe, him or the thousands of +P that have gone done my and others' model 60s?

The Speer SB .38 +P is my defense load in it, and I roll my own range loads that are just as warm.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:00 PM
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Hello Mr. Moderator...

We REALLY need a +P sticky for this forum!
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:10 PM
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It's not the +p ammo Hawkes has a problem with. It's the Mod 60. Or any other gun that S&W makes. I've got a 60 no dash, and it has no problem with +p. Hawkes is entitled to his opinion of course. And so am I........he's an idiot!
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:46 PM
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Thank you Gentlemem, I will go ahead and purchase My +P for my model 60 no dash without worring. Thanks again
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:55 PM
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Thank you Gentlemem, I will go ahead and purchase My +P for my model 60 no dash without worring. Thanks again
Cary, the first problem is that you read Hawks. He openly hates anything Smith&Wesson makes. Finds fault with it all. Just get some +Ps, shoot 'em and don't worry.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:15 PM
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Does the same answer apply to all .38spl J-frames, specifically, a Model 36 (no dash), or just Model 60's?
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:52 PM
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Does the same answer apply to all .38spl J-frames, specifically, a Model 36 (no dash), or just Model 60's?
I have a 1952 J-Frame Chief's Special that was made prior to when the Model 36 designation was assigned and it handles +P 158 grain ammunition. I don't regularly shoot it with +P but have done so and when it is carried it is stoked with +P. The little bugger barks my middle finger sharply when fired with +P but is otherwise fine by all appearances.

The last time it was fired with +P loads was at my parents' place when I used it to engage a fleeing skunk at about 30 yards. I had opportunity for a single shot in front of the headlights of the car before it made the tall grass. I missed.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:30 AM
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I checked with the factory a year ago and was told that starting with the Model 60-7 all are safe with +P ammo.
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:23 AM
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I checked with the factory a year ago and was told that starting with the Model 60-7 all are safe with +P ammo.

They told me M-60-4.Maybe it depends on who you ask there?

T-Star
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:39 PM
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I hear this a lot, J-Frames, +P or not? I will just give you my and my family experience with the M60 and the M36. Please note that I am not making claims for the older Chiefs Special models, but I firmly believe that they are quite stout weapons, and I routinely use +p in my non numbered Centennial.
My wife is going on almost 30 years of being a big city cop, with 25 of them as a detective in an SVU (as they are now known). She is on the SWAT Team, as a "talker" but she still has to do the monthly SWAT training, including shooting, running, climbing and all that stuff that would no doubt give me a first (and final) cardiac infarction. She has carried a revolver her entire career, she got hired just as semi autos were making an appearance in her department. She chose a revolver and stuck with it. Her first was a M10, which quiclky changed to MY PC tuned M66 no dash. Her off duty/BUG has always been a M36 that is on its 3rd generation of cops. She carries both on duty. She qualifies every month with both. For her entire career she has use the issued 158 gr SWC HP +p ammo (usually supplied by the low bidder). For the last 23 years she has fired 100 rounds a month through her M36 of that +P ammo. She has also used a substanatial quanity of the 110 GR JHP +P+ "treasury load", probably about 1K rounds through that weapon. She shoots the same ammo through the M66, in the same amount.
Both guns are somewhat worn, the M36 has about 50% finish left, but is almost as tight as when it was new, it locks up tightly, with no fore/aft play at all in the cylinder, the timing is perfect. It actually seems in better mechanical condition than the M66. And it is dead bang accurate. She still rountinely outshoots all the guys, particularly in the running shoot, and finishes in almost the same time frame, thanks to both guns being modified for moon clips, she may be no JM, but she can eject and reload either gun in less than a second, usually faster than a semi auto reload. One of the training shoots requires the shooter to jump over a horizontal 55 gal drum, and land and shoot, she fires her last shot just before the jump, and reloads during the jump and comes down during the first shot of the new load.
In short there have been over 21,000 of those +P loads through that M36 and it is still going strong, I have seen "stronger" guns give up after half that many.
Shoot +p through a J frame? Naw, why take a chance.
BTW, there is total domestic bliss in our home.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:28 PM
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Default +P+ .38

I have begun carrying my model 60 again from time to time and have been reading with interest about the +P controversy.
I was a Treasury agent during the time when we were armed with revolvers and carried revolvers as off duty weapons. The .38 special was the only authorized off duty weapon and many carried SW 36s and 60s. We were required to fire 30 rounds of standard issue +P+ quarterly for a total of 120 rounds per year. No one ever had a failure of their 60 or 36 with a round hotter than any +P. I think the issue of not firing +P on a regular basis is a bit over done as the +P+ did not present any issues with the J frames.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:47 PM
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I bought a 642 last year. I'm looking at the manual, which is generic for all S&W "Revolvers - Modern Style". It says do not use +P ammunition in K-frame revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. It also mentions that +P+ must not be used in S&W firearms. I read that to mean that my year old J-frame is good to go for +P.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:40 PM
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It is a shame that this question cannot be put to rest!

You can shoot +P .38 Special ammunition in any revolver chambered for the cartridge!

A possible exception would be Spanish, Belgian, Khyber Pass, Phillipine, and possibly other S&W knock-offs sometimes seen of questionable parentage and metallurgy.

The gun will experience somewhat accelerated wear compared to standard pressure ammunition, but it will not cause catastrophic failure of the firearm. The same can be said of your car or truck if you consistently operate it at higher throttle settings and higher RPM than is recommended. This is simply a choice the individual owner must make in determining whether or not the higher performance is worth the additional wear and diminished product life! You want to use +P then do, your decision, but there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of!

You have to remember that firearms are expendable items, they are not expected or intended by the manufacturer to last forever! The Military and Police agencies seem to have a good grasp of this, the average owner does not seem to understand this.
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:30 PM
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No problems with my three R prefix 60s.

A 37 with a cracked frame says no in air weights.

I avoid hot ammo for my older 42.

I once ruined an issue pre 10 (from about 1950-51) while firing Treasury loads while helping a Secret Service agent dispose of some of his surplus ammo. The revolver and the ammo were both exposed to direct sunshine for some time prior to the incident. One or more of the chambers enlarged according to S&W (not discernible to the naked eye). They replaced the cylinder and returned the revolver. I do not know if the agency was charged for the repair or not. Our supply store handled the details. It came back good as new. I have a personal pre 10 from the same era, and I feed it standard pressure loads. I am not an agency and my tools need to last.

Jack
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:10 AM
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I dug out an older S&W instruction manual from one of my boxes, dated 4/87. It contains an ammunition chart for the various models offered at the time.

For the steel J-frame models listed (36, 49, 60, 649), standard pressure .38 Special was listed as allowable; however +P and +P+ showed an asterisk. The explanation at the bottom of the page contained S&W's standard warning concerning these loadings.

The same chart showed that BOTH +P and +P+ was suitable in the various K-frames chambered for .38 Special (10, 15, 64 and 67)! Considering S&W's warnings about +P+ ammo I did not expect to find that.

That being said...

Among my accumulation I have both a 36 and 49 no-dash along with a 60-4. I have no personal problem shooting +P ammo through any of them, nor in any of the newer J-frames I own. At the range they mostly see standard pressure ammunition with smaller amounts of +P. My .38 carry load is the popular Speer 135 gr +P GD.

I don't believe that the small quantity of +P these guns see to materially reduce their life span. Frankly I suspect they will all still be ticking when I'm long gone...
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Old 03-11-2016, 08:32 AM
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After purchasing a used Mod 36 (1983 manufacture) last week, I asked S&W the same question and received the following reply from Customer Service;

"I wouldn't shoot +P out of that gun. Generally speaking even with our newer Model 36 that can shoot +P we tell customers to not put a steady diet of that ammo because it does put a lot of wear and tear on the gun. +P Ammo is a very hot and over pressured round."

FWIW and YMMV
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Old 03-11-2016, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN View Post
BTW, there is total domestic bliss in our home.
I bet! There's probably a lot of "Yes Ma'ams!" around the place!

Your lady sounds like a great gal--a real pistol for lack of a better word! You're a lucky man and justifiably proud of her.
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:42 AM
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Well if +P's hurt M60's then I must have all super strength ones! NONE of the M60's or M36's I have ever had or friends have has ever been damaged by a limited amount of +P's - and that includes the HEAVY Buffalo Bore LSWCHP-GC 158 grain version doing 1025 - 1040 fps out of the 2" barrel!!

I certainly would never recommend a steady diet of them, but shooting a few +P's for familiarization and practice during Range sessions has done no harm.

The Speer GD 135 grain Short Barrel +P while it is an extremely effective stopper, is a lot less strain on the small framed gun than the BB HEAVY, so I can see no reason not to shoot them as long as they are NOT a steady diet!

I GENERAL TERMS:

The more you shoot ANY gun the faster it will wear - just common sense. The more powerful the load the faster the wear - but common sense has to be used in all scenarios and there has to be a performance vs wear thought process. Keep your +P use to occasional, practice mostly with standard velocity 158 grain and carry +P for SD and you will be fine.
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caryg View Post
Is it ok or not ok?
If you want an "official answer", email you question to S&W with the model number and serial number.

I did, and S&W told me to never shoot +P out of my old 640, so I don't. I wouldn't want to be accused of revolver abuse.
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:23 PM
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I have 180 rounds of .38, +P and .357's through my Model 60. No problems.

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Old 03-14-2016, 12:57 PM
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I carried a model 60 and put many rounds thru it and still carry it on occasion. I practice with 38 and carry 38+P mainly because it was cheaper to practice with just 38. The last 5 rounds during practice were +P so I had the feel of the carry ammo. If I could afford to practice with +P I would and I do not believe it would harm the firearm. Good luck.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:52 PM
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Where is SaxonPig when we need him?
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:16 PM
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All shot at 30' with .38 +P ammo that was decades old, (as old as my M60-3). I don't shoot it often, but occasionally putting +P though it will not hurt a properly maintained older model 60 in good working order.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:37 PM
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Where is SaxonPig when we need him?
Amen Buff:
38+P specials have been downgraded to standard pressure 38 special ammo since the 1970s. I remember in the 70s when most standard ammo was running about 800 to 850fps and SAAMI pressure was at 18000psi. Standard pressure now is at 17000psi. The ammo manufacturers use +P ammo as a marketing tool to sell ammo. The answer to the OP's is yes on using +P in a model 60. Heck, I have used the so called +P in my M&P 38 specials from the earlier 1950s. Because of the expense of +P ammo I use standard pressure ammo and I reload. This is to save cost. Here is the link to Saxon Pigs acticle on shooting with kobie.
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
Amen Buff:
38+P specials have been downgraded to standard pressure 38 special ammo since the 1970s. I remember in the 70s when most standard ammo was running about 800 to 850fps and SAAMI pressure was at 18000psi. Standard pressure now is at 17000psi. The ammo manufacturers use +P ammo as a marketing tool to sell ammo. The answer to the OP's is yes on using +P in a model 60. Heck, I have used the so called +P in my M&P 38 specials from the earlier 1950s. Because of the expense of +P ammo I use standard pressure ammo and I reload. This is to save cost. Here is the link to Saxon Pigs acticle on shooting with kobie.
Shooting with Hobie
This is your answer!! Almost every +P load from 1980 on is what a standard load was in the 70's. S&W use to tell everyone that if it had a model #(10,15,60) it was safe to shoot +p's.it could cause more or faster wear in some of the lighter air weight guns but it was safe to shoot them.Go look up some of the 1950's Air Force loads for the 130 fmj load. So of those would hit 1250 fps out of a 6" barrel. It's just another way of S&W hiding behind lawyer's. I can believe how often this comes up. Remember on the K frames they also made them .357 magnums, they did wear faster but there are still thousands of them out there with nothing wrong.
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:37 PM
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I'm glad this has been cleared up.
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:56 PM
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Great response! lmao
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Chuck Hawks is a moron IMHO.Shoot 'em![not him,the ammo!]
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Old 05-30-2017, 03:29 PM
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Model 60 38 special +P or not ? Model 60 38 special +P or not ? Model 60 38 special +P or not ? Model 60 38 special +P or not ? Model 60 38 special +P or not ?  
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OK, I'll be the party pooper...

Below is my no-dash Model 60 which I've owned since the mid 1980s. It is marked ".38 S.&W. SPL." and has the shorter non-magnum cylinder.

Several years ago I sent this revolver back to the mothership to have a broken hammer pivot pin replaced (note the new pin pressed through the frame just below the cylinder release). While talking to the S&W customer service guy, I asked about +P in this gun. He replied it is not recommended due to the "heat treatment" of the metals.

Now we all know my gun will likely handle all of the +P I could run though it. This may loosen the fairly tight action earlier than with standard pressure rounds, but I doubt I will ever fire it enough to achieve that.

I have other J-frames which are my first choice for carry. My Model 60 is generally only used for "around the house carry" and as a range toy. Because of this I will stick to standard pressure rounds.

Another thought, they don't make the no-dash Model 60 anymore. Based on that I'll treat this little revolver more gently. My current production guns get the +P loads since they are are "rated" for +P and are easily replaced if needed.

As they say, YMMV...

Edmo

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Last edited by Edmo; 05-30-2017 at 03:35 PM.
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  #33  
Old 02-08-2024, 10:48 PM
jrog100 jrog100 is offline
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I wouldn't +P a model 60. Not necessary. Standard velocity 38 special is more than enough.
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2024, 11:39 PM
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arjay arjay is offline
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Old 02-09-2024, 02:31 AM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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I've been responding to these Chicken Little inquiries for so long, I almost know the numbers by heart! Chicken Little, by the way, is the fairy tale character who was afraid the "The sky is falling"------"THE SKY IS FALLING!!"

So, the numbers: They start out with 1925 numbers from the S&W catalog from that year----when .38 Specials were special. Think of those days as "The Good Old Days"----way before they (whoever "they" was) decided .38 Special loads needed to be reduced. Some folks here will know when that was. I've forgotten----if I ever knew in the first place. The other numbers are from the tables in the Gun Digest.

Okay, here we go----with a few words so as to enhance understanding---in the unlikely event it's necessary:

+P translates to increased pressure. Pressure is what drives bullets through barrels. That fact leads me to believe there's a direct correlation between pressure and muzzle velocity. That comes in handy, because I can look those numbers up. I can probably look pressure numbers up too---if I knew where to look---or cared enough to find out.

Okay---muzzle velocities: By the by, all these are for the regular, everyday 158 grain bullet loads. Are there faster +P loads? You bet! How'd they do that? Easy---with lighter weight bullets.

1925-------858 fps
Today------755 fps
+P Today--890 fps

Pretty scary, huh?!!

I'm thinking the + also stands for the increased PRICE of these wonder loads---also for the increased PROFIT margin for the folks who make them. I figure all this came to pass in the conference room one day when the Boss Man was asking for ideas on increasing profits. One bright young man---probably with an MBA from Harvard, or some such, raised his hand, and cried out "I KNOW----I KNOW!!"

He proceeded to suggest they increase the loads back up to about what they were before they reduced them, give the "new" loads a snappy name, and increase the prices they were charging.

And damned if it didn't work!! And I'll bet the bright young man got a raise---and a company car-----and extra vacation time---and he flew first class if he had to do any traveling. And last but not least, he got to eat lunch in the Executive Dining Room!! So much for that increased profit margin!!

Ralph Tremaine

Oh!!-----One other little minor detail: The entity known as the Plaintiff's Bar (the entirety of the personal injury lawyers) makes their living suing the pants off of those who cause injury to folks----or cause damage to their property---as well they should. The ammo folks know all about the Plaintiff's Bar, and have Risk Managers on staff to see to it their employers never hear a word from them----or get any scary paperwork from them----just as a matter of job security.

The bottom line of all this goes like so: +P loads are PERFECTLY SAFE in ANY .38 Special handgun EVER MADE!!-------or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And "or else" ain't NEVER going to happen----not while there's single risk manager alive---and there are a whole bunch of risk managers!

Damn!! I forgot to treat with all the "new and improved" +P rated guns---says so right on the barrels! Can you think of a better way to get your money to be their money? Works like a charm!!

And damned if I didn't think to say something about +P+ loads! That's because I'm not so sure I even know what they are----also don't even know if they have them for .38 Specials----and don't even care. The one thing I do know is why they're there. See the prior comments about higher prices and higher profit margins---and don't forget about that Plaintiff's Bar business. Those folks might be thought of as watch dogs. The first thing they're watching for is the opportunity to file a lawsuit against the ammo companies. That in turn creates the opportunity to run TV ads that end up telling you to call 1-800-BAD-AMMO---so they can sign you up as a Plaintiff---so they can earn a living---with their third (or so) of what you get----plus expenses!

That brings us right back to money again---and that's what this is all about---always has been----always will be.

It's the way of the world!

Last edited by rct269; 02-09-2024 at 10:59 AM.
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  #36  
Old 02-09-2024, 12:42 PM
mtgianni mtgianni is online now
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Ralph, rather than pressure I believe that it is gas volume that drives bullet speeds. A pressure peak of for example 2 nano seconds might produce less gas than one with a pressure peak of 5 nano seconds that has a lower pressure. That is why 5.6 gr Ramshot Sillhoutte produces 1050 fps from a 4" bbl 38 special and a 158 gr sec. The pressure is listed as 16, 800 psi.
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  #37  
Old 02-09-2024, 12:53 PM
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max503 max503 is offline
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From someone who shot a Model 638 loose with wadcutters, I'd say be very judicious with them.

You can't fool Mother Nature. Heavy ammo is going to accelerate wear on any gun.
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Old 02-09-2024, 01:21 PM
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zzclancy zzclancy is offline
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Forget the +P you'll get better results from a Wadcutter.
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Old 02-09-2024, 03:20 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgianni View Post
Ralph, rather than pressure I believe that it is gas volume that drives bullet speeds. A pressure peak of for example 2 nano seconds might produce less gas than one with a pressure peak of 5 nano seconds that has a lower pressure. That is why 5.6 gr Ramshot Sillhoutte produces 1050 fps from a 4" bbl 38 special and a 158 gr sec. The pressure is listed as 16, 800 psi.
It's a good day when I learn something new!

It's an even better day when I understand what I learned. I count my blessings for the expert and devoted staff I had back in the day who made a point of making me look good---never mind what the facts of the matter happened to be.

Fast forward to today when my staff of kitty cats' primary concern is getting their breakfast on time. That's why they just looked at me today when I told them I sort of understood what this gentleman was saying----sort of----and then they said they'd work on it-----AFTER breakfast---and report back. They also said they might need a budget deviation authorization to retain a consultant---and that I should remind folks that the boss is not always right----but he's never in doubt!!

I told them that would not be a problem---unless the Boss Lady found out about it.

Ralph Tremaine
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