Sorry about this question again. But I was reading an article by Chuck Hawks and He definetly said not to use +P ammo in model 60's. I asked this question before on here and the answer most gave was go ahead it would be ok. I am trying to get ahold of the new speer short barrel ammo in 38 +P but now I am kind of worried. I sure don't want to hurt my gun. Is it ok or not ok? Thanks again

I say use it. Some folks claim that the J-Frame gun has attributes that actually render it stronger than the larger K-Frame. These attributes are mainly connected with the positioning of the notches in the cylinder and with the forcing cone. I can see their point but simply don't know for certain. All of my J-Frame guns have a been shot with +P with no apparent harm.

+P ammunition is generally cost prohibitive to shoot in quantities that will promote excessive wear in a revolver. It also is not pleasant to shoot in J-Frame guns in my view. If a person is tough enough to enjoy it and has the money to burn off a lot of +P ammunition then he can easily afford replacement revolvers.

Some firing of a favored +P load for familiarization and verification of point-of-impact would be desirable. After that, carry the gun with the chosen load and only infrequently practice with it.

I use +P 158 grain lead SWCs which seem to shoot just an inch or so lower than standard velocity 158 grain ammunition in my .38s at reasonable self defense distances. The two loads shoot close enough that meaningful practice can be had with the cheaper and less energetic standard velocity ammunition.

Chuck Hawk isn't my favorite authority on all things connected with firearms but that is only personal opinion.

You mean the same Model 60 they make a 357 Magnum version of? Yes, it definitely cannot shoot 38 special +p.

Chuck Hawks is a moron IMHO.Shoot 'em![not him,the ammo!]

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WALSTIB

..

Well, there's your problem right there!

Who you gonna believe, him or the thousands of +P that have gone done my and others' model 60s?

The Speer SB .38 +P is my defense load in it, and I roll my own range loads that are just as warm.

Hello Mr. Moderator...

We REALLY need a +P sticky for this forum!

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Centennial Every Day

It's not the +p ammo Hawkes has a problem with. It's the Mod 60. Or any other gun that S&W makes. I've got a 60 no dash, and it has no problem with +p. Hawkes is entitled to his opinion of course. And so am I........he's an idiot!

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Misty

Thank you Gentlemem, I will go ahead and purchase My +P for my model 60 no dash without worring. Thanks again

Cary, the first problem is that you read Hawks. He openly hates anything Smith&Wesson makes. Finds fault with it all. Just get some +Ps, shoot 'em and don't worry.

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Dick

Does the same answer apply to all .38spl J-frames, specifically, a Model 36 (no dash), or just Model 60's?

I have a 1952 J-Frame Chief's Special that was made prior to when the Model 36 designation was assigned and it handles +P 158 grain ammunition. I don't regularly shoot it with +P but have done so and when it is carried it is stoked with +P. The little bugger barks my middle finger sharply when fired with +P but is otherwise fine by all appearances.

The last time it was fired with +P loads was at my parents' place when I used it to engage a fleeing skunk at about 30 yards. I had opportunity for a single shot in front of the headlights of the car before it made the tall grass. I missed.

I checked with the factory a year ago and was told that starting with the Model 60-7 all are safe with +P ammo.

They told me M-60-4.Maybe it depends on who you ask there?

T-Star

I hear this a lot, J-Frames, +P or not? I will just give you my and my family experience with the M60 and the M36. Please note that I am not making claims for the older Chiefs Special models, but I firmly believe that they are quite stout weapons, and I routinely use +p in my non numbered Centennial.
My wife is going on almost 30 years of being a big city cop, with 25 of them as a detective in an SVU (as they are now known). She is on the SWAT Team, as a "talker" but she still has to do the monthly SWAT training, including shooting, running, climbing and all that stuff that would no doubt give me a first (and final) cardiac infarction. She has carried a revolver her entire career, she got hired just as semi autos were making an appearance in her department. She chose a revolver and stuck with it. Her first was a M10, which quiclky changed to MY PC tuned M66 no dash. Her off duty/BUG has always been a M36 that is on its 3rd generation of cops. She carries both on duty. She qualifies every month with both. For her entire career she has use the issued 158 gr SWC HP +p ammo (usually supplied by the low bidder). For the last 23 years she has fired 100 rounds a month through her M36 of that +P ammo. She has also used a substanatial quanity of the 110 GR JHP +P+ "treasury load", probably about 1K rounds through that weapon. She shoots the same ammo through the M66, in the same amount.
Both guns are somewhat worn, the M36 has about 50% finish left, but is almost as tight as when it was new, it locks up tightly, with no fore/aft play at all in the cylinder, the timing is perfect. It actually seems in better mechanical condition than the M66. And it is dead bang accurate. She still rountinely outshoots all the guys, particularly in the running shoot, and finishes in almost the same time frame, thanks to both guns being modified for moon clips, she may be no JM, but she can eject and reload either gun in less than a second, usually faster than a semi auto reload. One of the training shoots requires the shooter to jump over a horizontal 55 gal drum, and land and shoot, she fires her last shot just before the jump, and reloads during the jump and comes down during the first shot of the new load.
In short there have been over 21,000 of those +P loads through that M36 and it is still going strong, I have seen "stronger" guns give up after half that many.
Shoot +p through a J frame? Naw, why take a chance.
BTW, there is total domestic bliss in our home.

I have begun carrying my model 60 again from time to time and have been reading with interest about the +P controversy.
I was a Treasury agent during the time when we were armed with revolvers and carried revolvers as off duty weapons. The .38 special was the only authorized off duty weapon and many carried SW 36s and 60s. We were required to fire 30 rounds of standard issue +P+ quarterly for a total of 120 rounds per year. No one ever had a failure of their 60 or 36 with a round hotter than any +P. I think the issue of not firing +P on a regular basis is a bit over done as the +P+ did not present any issues with the J frames.

I bought a 642 last year. I'm looking at the manual, which is generic for all S&W "Revolvers - Modern Style". It says do not use +P ammunition in K-frame revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. It also mentions that +P+ must not be used in S&W firearms. I read that to mean that my year old J-frame is good to go for +P.

It is a shame that this question cannot be put to rest!

You can shoot +P .38 Special ammunition in any revolver chambered for the cartridge!

A possible exception would be Spanish, Belgian, Khyber Pass, Phillipine, and possibly other S&W knock-offs sometimes seen of questionable parentage and metallurgy.

The gun will experience somewhat accelerated wear compared to standard pressure ammunition, but it will not cause catastrophic failure of the firearm. The same can be said of your car or truck if you consistently operate it at higher throttle settings and higher RPM than is recommended. This is simply a choice the individual owner must make in determining whether or not the higher performance is worth the additional wear and diminished product life! You want to use +P then do, your decision, but there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of!

You have to remember that firearms are expendable items, they are not expected or intended by the manufacturer to last forever! The Military and Police agencies seem to have a good grasp of this, the average owner does not seem to understand this.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

No problems with my three R prefix 60s.

A 37 with a cracked frame says no in air weights.

I avoid hot ammo for my older 42.

I once ruined an issue pre 10 (from about 1950-51) while firing Treasury loads while helping a Secret Service agent dispose of some of his surplus ammo. The revolver and the ammo were both exposed to direct sunshine for some time prior to the incident. One or more of the chambers enlarged according to S&W (not discernible to the naked eye). They replaced the cylinder and returned the revolver. I do not know if the agency was charged for the repair or not. Our supply store handled the details. It came back good as new. I have a personal pre 10 from the same era, and I feed it standard pressure loads. I am not an agency and my tools need to last.

Jack

I dug out an older S&W instruction manual from one of my boxes, dated 4/87. It contains an ammunition chart for the various models offered at the time.

For the steel J-frame models listed (36, 49, 60, 649), standard pressure .38 Special was listed as allowable; however +P and +P+ showed an asterisk. The explanation at the bottom of the page contained S&W's standard warning concerning these loadings.

The same chart showed that BOTH +P and +P+ was suitable in the various K-frames chambered for .38 Special (10, 15, 64 and 67)! Considering S&W's warnings about +P+ ammo I did not expect to find that.

That being said...

Among my accumulation I have both a 36 and 49 no-dash along with a 60-4. I have no personal problem shooting +P ammo through any of them, nor in any of the newer J-frames I own. At the range they mostly see standard pressure ammunition with smaller amounts of +P. My .38 carry load is the popular Speer 135 gr +P GD.

I don't believe that the small quantity of +P these guns see to materially reduce their life span. Frankly I suspect they will all still be ticking when I'm long gone...

After purchasing a used Mod 36 (1983 manufacture) last week, I asked S&W the same question and received the following reply from Customer Service;

"I wouldn't shoot +P out of that gun. Generally speaking even with our newer Model 36 that can shoot +P we tell customers to not put a steady diet of that ammo because it does put a lot of wear and tear on the gun. +P Ammo is a very hot and over pressured round."

FWIW and YMMV

I bet! There's probably a lot of "Yes Ma'ams!" around the place!

Your lady sounds like a great gal--a real pistol for lack of a better word! You're a lucky man and justifiably proud of her.

Well if +P's hurt M60's then I must have all super strength ones! NONE of the M60's or M36's I have ever had or friends have has ever been damaged by a limited amount of +P's - and that includes the HEAVY Buffalo Bore LSWCHP-GC 158 grain version doing 1025 - 1040 fps out of the 2" barrel!!

I certainly would never recommend a steady diet of them, but shooting a few +P's for familiarization and practice during Range sessions has done no harm.

The Speer GD 135 grain Short Barrel +P while it is an extremely effective stopper, is a lot less strain on the small framed gun than the BB HEAVY, so I can see no reason not to shoot them as long as they are NOT a steady diet!

I GENERAL TERMS:

The more you shoot ANY gun the faster it will wear - just common sense. The more powerful the load the faster the wear - but common sense has to be used in all scenarios and there has to be a performance vs wear thought process. Keep your +P use to occasional, practice mostly with standard velocity 158 grain and carry +P for SD and you will be fine.

If you want an "official answer", email you question to S&W with the model number and serial number.

I did, and S&W told me to never shoot +P out of my old 640, so I don't. I wouldn't want to be accused of revolver abuse.

I have 180 rounds of .38, +P and .357's through my Model 60. No problems.

I carried a model 60 and put many rounds thru it and still carry it on occasion. I practice with 38 and carry 38+P mainly because it was cheaper to practice with just 38. The last 5 rounds during practice were +P so I had the feel of the carry ammo. If I could afford to practice with +P I would and I do not believe it would harm the firearm. Good luck.

Where is SaxonPig when we need him?

All shot at 30' with .38 +P ammo that was decades old, (as old as my M60-3). I don't shoot it often, but occasionally putting +P though it will not hurt a properly maintained older model 60 in good working order.

[IMG][/IMG]

Amen Buff:
38+P specials have been downgraded to standard pressure 38 special ammo since the 1970s. I remember in the 70s when most standard ammo was running about 800 to 850fps and SAAMI pressure was at 18000psi. Standard pressure now is at 17000psi. The ammo manufacturers use +P ammo as a marketing tool to sell ammo. The answer to the OP's is yes on using +P in a model 60. Heck, I have used the so called +P in my M&P 38 specials from the earlier 1950s. Because of the expense of +P ammo I use standard pressure ammo and I reload. This is to save cost. Here is the link to Saxon Pigs acticle on shooting with kobie.
Shooting with Hobie

This is your answer!! Almost every +P load from 1980 on is what a standard load was in the 70's. S&W use to tell everyone that if it had a model #(10,15,60) it was safe to shoot +p's.it could cause more or faster wear in some of the lighter air weight guns but it was safe to shoot them.Go look up some of the 1950's Air Force loads for the 130 fmj load. So of those would hit 1250 fps out of a 6" barrel. It's just another way of S&W hiding behind lawyer's. I can believe how often this comes up. Remember on the K frames they also made them .357 magnums, they did wear faster but there are still thousands of them out there with nothing wrong.

I'm glad this has been cleared up.

Great response! lmao

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"Non sibi, sed patriae"

OK, I'll be the party pooper...

Below is my no-dash Model 60 which I've owned since the mid 1980s. It is marked ".38 S.&W. SPL." and has the shorter non-magnum cylinder.

Several years ago I sent this revolver back to the mothership to have a broken hammer pivot pin replaced (note the new pin pressed through the frame just below the cylinder release). While talking to the S&W customer service guy, I asked about +P in this gun. He replied it is not recommended due to the "heat treatment" of the metals.

Now we all know my gun will likely handle all of the +P I could run though it. This may loosen the fairly tight action earlier than with standard pressure rounds, but I doubt I will ever fire it enough to achieve that.

I have other J-frames which are my first choice for carry. My Model 60 is generally only used for "around the house carry" and as a range toy. Because of this I will stick to standard pressure rounds.

Another thought, they don't make the no-dash Model 60 anymore. Based on that I'll treat this little revolver more gently. My current production guns get the +P loads since they are are "rated" for +P and are easily replaced if needed.

As they say, YMMV...

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!