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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 08-16-2010, 05:07 PM
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Unhappy New 610-3 going straight back...

I picked up a new Model 610-3 6.5" last weekend, but upon closer inspection at home -- this one is taking a trip straight back for warranty repair.

The first thing that I noticed was that one flute was machined incorrectly on the cylinder. Then, I noticed that every chamber in the cylinder had obvious and significant tool chatter in the freebore. An errant gouge was machined in the top strap on the frame near the forcing cone. There is obvious pitting just below the front sight on the right side of the barrel hood. Finally, the barrel crown is extremely rough.

I understand that variances and defects will occur in any production process, but this revolver should have been caught and corrected by QA.

This will make the third brand new revolver from S&W that I've sent back to the factory immediately after purchase in the past coupel of years. I'm glad they have a good warranty support system -- the rep on the phone said "Oh my! -- let's get that thing back in here..." when I called this afternoon. A prepaid shipping label is on the way, so I'll be sending this revolver back home hopefully later this week.

I haven't had the same type of problems in workmanship defects with my S&W autos -- is this something more common with the revolvers??
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:12 PM
ishootblanks ishootblanks is offline
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Default Be patient.

It's of little help to you, but things happen. That gun should never have left the factory, but S&W's customer service is top shelf and they will make it right. It's like new cars, appliances, etc. that have problems, but from personal experience, S&W will fix it.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:39 PM
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Default I just don't understand

how a person can purchase a firearm from a store with out giving it a close examination before laying out the amount of money it takes to buy in todays market. if you could see the problems you mention at home you should have been been able to see them in the store.

If a salesperson will not allow me to look at a prospective purchase, I find another store.

Sorry if this rankles your feathers.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:41 PM
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The problem is the most shops won't stock the 610, which means that you have to order it in. Since most shop won't permit you to decline a special order, once it hits the store it's yours.

I was fortunate, I ordered my 6 1/2 inch 610 and when it came in it was nearly flawless. About the only thing I could complain about was the barrel was tipped slightly to the left. However, that doesn't bother me, I purchased it as a shooter and that minor tipping of the barrel was well within the adjustment of the sights. In addition it's now equipped with a J Point reflex so I don't even notice the front sight anymore.

The good news is that S&W has excellent customer service, so if you do get a clinker they will fix it.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toasted View Post
how a person can purchase a firearm from a store with out giving it a close examination before laying out the amount of money it takes to buy in todays market. if you could see the problems you mention at home you should have been been able to see them in the store.

If a salesperson will not allow me to look at a prospective purchase, I find another store.

Sorry if this rankles your feathers.
Kinda rankles mine!

Within the last year I've seen(and thankfully not owned) more than two(several more) examples of PC barrel shrouds LOOSE right out of the box, more than two over torqed barrels(guns shot fine, looks bad when examined), one frame which had been ground too much on the yoke side of the gun so that even though the barrel wasn't over torqed the top edge stuck out a few thousandths past the edge of what was left of the frame, brand new guns that wouldn't carry up properly even when having an oversize hand installed AND NOT FITTED!(obviously a ratchet cut problem) and now barrels which don't fit against the top of the frame at the rib area in addition to the problems with this 610. Now I'm all for examination but the way things are going we are going to need to start taking a laundry list of things to look for into the shops with us because no matter how careful you are, some of this stuff you are just gonna miss until you get home.

I've bought a lot of Smith's since 1968 and didn't see this lapse of QC even in the Bangor Punta days. They'll make it right, no doubt, but some of this stuff wouldn't have left in the first place a few years ago. Add to this that not everyone has your knowledge of what to look for and once in a while somebodies gonna get burned.

Last edited by Wayne M; 08-16-2010 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toasted View Post
how a person can purchase a firearm from a store with out giving it a close examination before laying out the amount of money it takes to buy in todays market. if you could see the problems you mention at home you should have been been able to see them in the store.

If a salesperson will not allow me to look at a prospective purchase, I find another store.

Sorry if this rankles your feathers.
Have you ever purchased a firearm online and had it shipped to a receiving dealer for a transfer? You really have no opportunity to look the piece over before you buy. Sometimes it is the only way to get a particular model that you want (as in the case with the 610) and sometimes it provides the best opportunity for the lowest cost. Rather than going through the hassle of refusing the delivery and trying to get a refund, it is simply easier to take it and ship it back to the manufacturer for correction.

Thus, what I am doing. However, the fact remains -- a firearm with such glaring and obvious manufacturing defects made it through the assembly (human hands touching) process, whatever QA process is in place (human hands and "trained" eyes used), and the packing process (again, human hands touching). If I can open a box and in 2 minutes discover all of these issues (no idea what may exist under the sideplate) without being a trained gunsmith -- surely Smith & Wesson company personnel should be able to see the defects.

In this particular revolver's case, I think a cylinder destined for the scrap metal bin was used to assemble a completed firearm. The other issues were just additional failures in the process.

I know that S&W will make it right -- and hopefully it will be a quick turnaround -- but as I said in my original post. This is the THIRD S&W revolver (two PC guns & this one) that I have sent back to the factory immediately for warranty work on material & manufacturing defects -- not parts that broke during the first couple of range sessions -- in as many years...

I call that an undesirable QA/QC process for S&W revolvers and it should ruffle management's feathers -- as they are now paying two additional shipping charges in addition to labor and materials for something that should have never left the plant.
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  #7  
Old 08-16-2010, 11:52 PM
Dave T Dave T is offline
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And still people keep asking why some of us only buy the old S&Ws.

Dave
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:15 AM
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DaveT,
I couldn't agree more.
They just don't make ANYTHING like they used to,it seems.
Sad.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:55 AM
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The worst part is the price you pay for the new Smith's. It use to be because they were quality and you paid a little more for the name, but now the name is all there is, no more quality is put into the guns, it's just shipped out as fast as the company can ship them. I will just stick to my old Smith's and Rugers.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:23 PM
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My latest 58-1 has file marks on the inside of the top strap, which I posted on this forum a few weeks ago. I got 2 responses, one of which said file marks are normal. It's going back today, on S&W's dime. Overall I've been very happy with the new S&Ws I've purchased over the past several years. A couple of years ago I had to return a new 627 Pro, for the same problem. Their service is outstanding. I have to wonder what the final QC involves, before the gun leaves he factory though. It's got to be costing them a fortune in return costs and man hours for these repairs.
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  #11  
Old 08-17-2010, 02:47 PM
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I've thought about this a lot, but I believe that all guns even older S&W's, may suffer from QC issues that we are not aware of. Polishing and finish may be readily apparent, but machining and internal dimensions may not. And the truth is, we may not be able to tell the difference in shooting.
I just sent in an older K-38 to a reputable pistolsmith to have it reconditioned. It was a little loose and built up lead to one side of the forcing cone, but it always grouped just fine. Offhand, DA @ 15 yards, I always achieved the kind of groups you take pictures of. Anyways, the verdict from the pistolsmith was that, yes the gun was loose, but the chambers were all significantly undersized and the forcing cone was only partially cut.
The gun's back now, it locks up tight and shoots as well or better than ever. There is no build-up of lead near the forcing cone.
IMO, the VAST majority of guns never get shot enough to tell the difference and even guns that have significant problems will often shoot better than we are capable of taking advantage of.
Sorry for the long post.
Chris
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GyMac View Post
I've thought about this a lot, but I believe that all guns even older S&W's, may suffer from QC issues that we are not aware of. Polishing and finish may be readily apparent, but machining and internal dimensions may not. And the truth is, we may not be able to tell the difference in shooting.
I just sent in an older K-38 to a reputable pistolsmith to have it reconditioned. It was a little loose and built up lead to one side of the forcing cone, but it always grouped just fine. Offhand, DA @ 15 yards, I always achieved the kind of groups you take pictures of. Anyways, the verdict from the pistolsmith was that, yes the gun was loose, but the chambers were all significantly undersized and the forcing cone was only partially cut.
The gun's back now, it locks up tight and shoots as well or better than ever. There is no build-up of lead near the forcing cone.
IMO, the VAST majority of guns never get shot enough to tell the difference and even guns that have significant problems will often shoot better than we are capable of taking advantage of.
Sorry for the long post.
Chris
Who did the work?
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:50 PM
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@ the OP,

Have you considered contacting S&W again and speaking to a manager about the issues? It might be a good idea to bring this to their attention and express that you like the product but have had these three cases and that it is unsatisfactory. Further that you may plan to do more business in the future but are concerned about future product quality.

Who knows, might help magnify a department with management that might need attention.

Just my .02
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45FMJoe View Post
Who did the work?
It was Alex Hamilton and I am very pleased. I hope to have another gun worked on by him in the future.
Chris
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  #15  
Old 08-18-2010, 06:02 AM
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Default Pictures added

After reading the thread on another member's 625JM, I thought it might be best to post some pics for the forum members to review. You tell me if this would be expected to be "normal" production variances.

First is the flute error on the cylinder. It is a little difficult to tell from the pic, but there is a flattened area to the top and bottom of the flute, almost as if the cylinder had a defect when turned and before the flutes were cut.



Next, is the pitting below the front sight - that was written off as "normal pin holes from the forging process" by S&W with the 625JM. Curious that they are absent on the other side of the barrel...



Then, we have the rough tool marks in each chamber of the cylinder -- in my opinion the worst error.



Finally, there is what I would call a rough crown -- that could affect accuracy.



I forgot to take a picture of the gouge that is in the top strap of the frame near the forcing cone.

So, would you send this one back?
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:21 PM
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"So, would you send this one back? " --Scuba

Yes! If not seeking a refund, I would request an exchange for the same product, minus the aforementioned issues.

Quite frankly, I find the quality in this case to be seriously sub-standard.

If returning, and after speaking with a rep., I would enclose pictures of the areas of concern, while advising that (if replaced with the same model) the replacement be checked for these issues prior to sending.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:32 PM
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man, thats an ugly new gun!
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:06 AM
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My guns are from 1975-76-77 Bangor Punta days .No mechanical problems,exellent fit and finish and way more accurate than the shooter. It seems they are rolling the dice on how many will be returned instead of QC being such that these problems don't make it out of the factory. The Rossi 3" 38+p that I bought for my wife is fit and finished as good or better than the S&W laying next to it,plus I got it for less than 1/2 the cost.Accurate and consistent so far,with the action improving at each trip to shoot.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
And still people keep asking why some of us only buy the old S&Ws.

Dave
My sentiments exactly--be it S&W or any or MFG.--with money as tight as it is today and the ever increasing prices on everything you'd think ALL manufacturing would at the minimum step up their QC on products.

Saw your pictures--as rough as that is I'd be more inclined to ask for a refund--maybe that would wake them up.

I feel your anguish.

Steve
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:56 AM
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Excessive quality and and return shipping costs are dragging down the corporate profits. I've lost a $1+ per share on my first purchase, but got a great (almost 52 week low) price on my second stock purchase. Not all of the S&W problems can be blamed on the Obama lock, poor management practices are part of the problem.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsadv View Post
DaveT,
I couldn't agree more.
They just don't make ANYTHING like they used to,it seems.
Sad.
I agree, it is sad. I have a bunch of Smith's that I bought when money was tight. Now that I am older and can more easily afford them most have no appeal. I did break down and buy a 5inch 686 and it appears to be a good one except for the internal lock. Hate that thing.

Last edited by 357Ruger; 08-19-2010 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:39 PM
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Default oops!

We tend to view life and comment on same based on our own experiences. I have lived in the Atlanta, Ga area since my discharge and have never purchased a firearm other than at a dealer or face to face purchase so I never thought about buying from the internet. There are so many dealers here and frequent gun shows. I see what you mean, your pics spoke volumes. I would be on the phone to Smith asking for a prepaid return shipping label so they can hopefully replace that *** or make all necessary repairs. On a brighter note when you get your replacement or repaired one back you will enjoy it. I have a 5" first run 610 and it is one of my favorites.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:32 PM
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Well, it did take a while to get the pre-paid shipping label (it took 3 weeks and two phone calls) -- but once they received the revolver, they had it fixed and back to me in 2-3 weeks. It arrived a few minutes ago by FedEx. The enclosed repair summary indicated that they replaced the cylinder, repaired the barrel, and refinished the complete gun. Interestingly, there was also enclosed in the gun case a complete rear sight assembly in a plastic bag. Upon comparison, it appears that the rear sight assembly has a taller sight blade installed than the one in the plastic bag. I can only assume that they test fired the revolver upon completion of the corrected errors and discovered that the installed rear sight could not be effectively adjusted to obtain a POA/POI within their standards -- so a new taller rear sight was installed.

The revolver looks great! The cylinder does appear to be new -- all flutes correctly machined -- and the free-bore of each chamber is mirror polished. The forcing cone on the barrel appears to have been polished as well, and the barrel crown looks like it was given special treatment to a smooth finish. The area of "pitting" next the the front sight is gone, and the errant gouge in the frame near the forcing cone is gone as well.

The SA trigger is supurb, so maybe they did a little work there as well, even though that was not a complaint identified in my return request.

In summary, although I still feel that S&W Quality Assurance dropped the ball on the production of my particular Model 610, the S&W Customer Service once again went above and beyond in making the manufacturing errors & defects right for me. I am very pleased and looking forward to hunting with this revolver this season.
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:41 PM
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My Model 65-3 should never have left the factory back in the 1980's when it was produced. It lacked the final buffing and polishing of the frame and the cylinder.

I got this particular firearm off the Net via an auction site, so I was not able to do a face-to-face inspection of it from its original owner, nor was I able to return it, as it was sold "as-is" on the auction. I wanted it that badly.

I had a S&W-trained 'smith polish and buff it for me and it now looks like it should have when originally shipped from the factory in the 1980's. Poor QC is not a new phenomenom. It happened decades ago, too.

I hope that the factory folks did right by the OP and that his 610 is now where it should be. I am just thankful that S&W still acknowledges and stands behind their current products, as well as their old.
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:14 PM
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It just kills me that folks keep buying this new stuff from S&W, there must be about 100 posts about how this and that have broken not been right. As far as I'm concerned S&W went out of business about 1995, they haven't made anything of quality since then. It's truly sad to see as I love Smiths.
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
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It just kills me that folks keep buying this new stuff from S&W, there must be about 100 posts about how this and that have broken not been right. As far as I'm concerned S&W went out of business about 1995, they haven't made anything of quality since then. It's truly sad to see as I love Smiths.
I must be the luckiest man on the planet. In the past 2 years I've purchased a 2008 production 620 and a 2009 production 610-3. Both guns have been nearly without fault.

The only problem was that the headspace ledge in the 610 was sharp enough to shave jacketing when 40 S&W ammo was used. Didn't bother sending it back, I have the skills and the tools to correct something like this and it now works perfectly for either 10mm or 40 S&W.

As for the 620, it has not only been 100% without any fault, it's also the most accurate handgun I've ever shot. It'll shoot groups 1/2 that size of my 617 and the 617 aint no slouch for accuracy.

As for the Lock, that doesn't bother me a bit. It's actually convenient when visting family with small nieces and nephews running around. I can lock the action and then use the cable lock to lock the case. In addition over 30 years of cranking milling machine handles and doing computer design has left me with wrists that don't tolerate the recoil of a lightweight revolver, so self activation just isn't a concern, all of my Smiths are too heavy for that to happen.

I've also purchased 2 new Sig Sauers in the past 2 years, a P239 and P229. Just like my Smiths they've also been completely without fault. In fact, after 2 years of shooting them I am still waiting for one of them to jam even once. I've run over 1700 rounds throught the P239 and the only failure of any description was a dud primer on one round of Federal Champion.

As I said, I must be the luckiest man on the planet. According to some of the bad press I've seen all 4 guns should have had multiple trips back to the factory and the 620 should be on it's 4th or 5th barrel.

Now, I'm not being critical of those who have had issues, in almost every case they've been well documented and needed to be fixed. However, I suspect that we are probably seeing a defect rate that was completely hidden from the shooting public before the Internet and shooting forums came about. In fact I have a pretty strong hunch that the return rate back when these guns were all hand fitted and adjusted was MUCH MUCH higher than it is today. What's changed is that nearly every gun that isn't correct gets complained about where every one of us can read all about it.
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610, 617, 625jm, 627, 686, flutes, gunsmith, lock, model 65, primer, punta, rossi, sideplate, sig arms

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