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Old 08-22-2010, 08:08 AM
k stein k stein is offline
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Are these OK in a Model 66 2 1/2 inch?
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:36 AM
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38 Special +P+ is still not up to 357 Magnum pressures, so I'd say it would be fine in a 66 that's in good condition.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:53 AM
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Be careful! He didn't say 38s, they could be 357s! It's not that the 66 can handle 357s, it's the fact that the light, short 110s will be slamming the forcing cone with very fast +P+ pressures and you may end up with a cracked forcing cone. Search the forum and see what it has even done to Model 19s with 110s in just +Ps.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:04 AM
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I might be wrong, but most +P or +P+ ammo isnt magnum designated. Ive never seen a .357 +P or +P+ round. So I think it would be a 38.special round.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonback68 View Post
Be careful! He didn't say 38s, they could be 357s!
I've never seen or even heard of "357 Magnum +P+" so, of course, I'm assuming he meant 38 Special +P+.

I'd be willing to bet that even 110 gr 38 +P+ is still clocking less than 1200 fps, so it should not be an issue with the 66 forcing cone.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary7 View Post

I'd be willing to bet that even 110 gr 38 +P+ is still clocking less than 1200 fps, so it should not be an issue with the 66 forcing cone.
Do a search and see what they have done to 19s, the same gun in carbon steel.

It's the shorter light 110s hitting the force cone at that speed that does the damage.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by diamonback68 View Post
Do a search and see what they have done to 19s, the same gun in carbon steel.

It's the shorter light 110s hitting the force cone at that speed that does the damage.
The problem was 110-125 gr 357 Magnum loads pushing 1500+ fps, not 38 Special loads.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k stein View Post
Are these OK in a Model 66 2 1/2 inch?
Yes, no problems, it should be a light recoil load. I know it is when I shoot the 110 grain .357 mags.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:34 AM
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This load in 38, 110 +P+, used to be the BP duty ammo when I was in and I carried it and shot it in my Model 66-2 with no issues. I also have never heard of any .357 +P+ but will never claim that I know all there is to know about ammo.

If you have any doubts, give S&W a call...
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Old 08-22-2010, 11:33 AM
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Sorry, it is Winchester 38 special +p+ 110 grain hp"s. Le only marked boxes. Thanks
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k stein View Post
Sorry, it is Winchester 38 special +p+ 110 grain hp"s. Le only marked boxes. Thanks
Winchester's specs on that load are 1155 fps so it's well below the velocity (and pressure) of 110-125 gr bullets in 357, which cause problems in the Model 19 and 66.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:32 PM
41 fan 41 fan is offline
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I have chronoed the LE .38 spl 110 +P+ Winchester loads. They made 1050 from a 3" mod 65, 1180 from a 6" mod 15 and 950 from a 2" mod 12. Dean
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:39 PM
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If you're worried, trade or sell them off to somebody and buy something else. It's a lousy target round, and an even worse self defense load.
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:40 PM
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Search on"+P+" to learn everything you ever wanted to know about this ammo, including chronoed velocities from every barrel length around.

You will also need to turn on your BS filter!

Good shooting.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2010, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer View Post
If you're worried, trade or sell them off to somebody and buy something else. It's a lousy target round, and an even worse self defense load.
Lighter bullets never has impress me. If your looking for a good self defense round for your M66 I suggest Buffalo Bores 158gr +P 38 special LSWCHP. Known as the "FBI" round. In a 4 inch revolver the velocity is over 1200 fps. Plus you get a good pentration round. In a short barrel you will still get around 1100 fps. This round is by far the stoutest 38 +P round going. Any more you might as well go to a 357 round.

By the way this round is what I use in my M13, M66 and M10.

Good luck,
roaddog28
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:39 PM
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thanks for the responses. I will probaly carry the +p+ 110's instead of a 125 357 mag load. I'm alittle worried about over penetration with the 357 mag load. Thanks, keep safe.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k stein View Post
thanks for the responses. I will probaly carry the +p+ 110's instead of a 125 357 mag load. I'm alittle worried about over penetration with the 357 mag load. Thanks, keep safe.
Over penetration is largely an invented problem by those selling whiz bang ammo. However, under-penetration, something the 110 +P+ is infamous for, is a real problem.

There are loads that will perform much better in .38 special. I would carry 148 grain wadcutters before I would use the Treasury loads.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:18 PM
Timber Wolf Timber Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 41 fan View Post
I have chronoed the LE .38 spl 110 +P+ Winchester loads...... 950 from a 2" mod 12. Dean
I would not fire ANY +P from my old Model 12.
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:03 PM
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If I remember correctly the Super Vel round in 38 Special with the 110 JHP is the round which was the Model 19 forcing cone cracker. Of course they also had the same bullet in 357 Magnum but it was the 38 that everyone wanted to soup up and Super Vel was the first. My experience with cracked cones has all been anecdotal and seemed to happen less once stainless steel was introduced. Back in the 1970's it was "the round." Today there are a lot of better and heavier bullets. I think I'd rather have a good old 158 SWC loaded to about 950fps in 4" than the 110 JHP. Lots better than jagged rocks, though!
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:43 AM
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The 110 +P+ was actually designed for the 2 1/2 in M-66. The Feds used it. Also if memory serves, it was the 125 JHP .357 Mag. at 1450 FPS that did the damage to forcing cones. the 110 gr. >357 is not loaded nearly as hot.
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Old 08-24-2010, 11:54 AM
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I once chronographed some Winchester Western +P+ 110 grain ammunition that was put up and a plain white box and labeled "for law enforcement use only." It was obtained from a fellow who worked for the U.S. Treasury. It gave 1100 fps, on the nose, from my 4-inch Model 10 Heavy Barrel.

The Super Vel I've tested was even speedier when fired from the same revolver. A batch tested many years ago registered 1237 fps. Some more from that same batch, fired over the same chronograph, and from the same revolver gave 1195 fps a couple of months back.
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Old 08-25-2010, 01:55 AM
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The 110GR JHP +P+ was known as the "treasury load" because it was developed for the Secret Seervice when they were part of the Treasury Department. Other treasury agencies and the Border patrol adopted it for varying lengths of time.
One thing that everyone should remember about +P+ loads is that there are NO industry standards for them. +P has an, industry standard which has been underloaded for years but +P+ is whatever the builder stuffs into the case. It seems from the previous posts that they are quite watered down from their original iteration(the original treasury load was rally fearsome).
The comments on light bullets are well taken, there was a time in the early 70s when speed was everything-turned out not to be so. A quote that is not mine; "bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin". I quite agree, I use the 158 SWCHP +P from Buffalo Bore for serious social encounters. Been using that round since it became regulation in the Chicago PD back in the 80s. It works, if you do your part (the bullet placement thing) it works all the time.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary7 View Post
I've never seen or even heard of "357 Magnum +P+" so, of course, I'm assuming he meant 38 Special +P+.
I seem to recall that IMI actually did offer a .357 Mag +p load with a 170 FMJ bullet back in the early '90s.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
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I seem to recall that IMI actually did offer a .357 Mag +p load with a 170 FMJ bullet back in the early '90s.
As far as I know, there was and is no SAAMI specification for +P in .357 magnum, so that would have just been an arbitrary designation given by the manufacturer.
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Old 08-25-2010, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN View Post
The 110GR JHP +P+ was known as the "treasury load" because it was developed for the Secret Seervice when they were part of the Treasury Department. Other treasury agencies and the Border patrol adopted it for varying lengths of time.
One thing that everyone should remember about +P+ loads is that there are NO industry standards for them. +P has an, industry standard which has been underloaded for years but +P+ is whatever the builder stuffs into the case. It seems from the previous posts that they are quite watered down from their original iteration(the original treasury load was rally fearsome).
Fearsome in muzzle flash or recoil in smaller frame guns, but one of the worst loads ever to be used by law enforcement as far as performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN View Post
The comments on light bullets are well taken, there was a time in the early 70s when speed was everything-turned out not to be so. A quote that is not mine; "bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin".
Good advice, likely either said by, or paraphrased from Martin Fackler, though in recent years, bullet technology has caught up a little. When Fackler and Wolberg were doing their studies in the 1980's, the difference in expansion between the good loads was minimal. Today there are loads that will expand to 3/4"-1" or more, while still penetrating 11"-13" in gel. The extra half inch wider wound channel gives lots more opportunity for damage to blood vessels and major organs along it's path, while still going deep enough to reach major vitals. The best of both worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAOV1MAN View Post
I quite agree, I use the 158 SWCHP +P from Buffalo Bore for serious social encounters. Been using that round since it became regulation in the Chicago PD back in the 80s. It works, if you do your part (the bullet placement thing) it works all the time.
You're using a great load, one that works good in modern day testing, and has worked well in actual usage.
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