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09-27-2010, 08:10 PM
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Model 67 Catastrophic Failure
Friday night we were running a Corrections Class through night fire quaification. Corrections is required to shoot .38 Special revolvers and the academy uses S&W Model 67's. These guns are new, with no more than 800 rounds through any one gun.
A student, who has consistently been a good shooter, was all over the target. Inspection of his revolver revealed that the barrel was missing....yes, missing. It was recovered on the ground where he was shooting from. The barrel separated at the threads halfway down the forcing cone.
At that same time, a second cadet was complaining that he could barely pull the trigger on his. Inspection revealed that the same thing had happened but the barrel had not yet fallen off. It was separated and was creating pressure between the forcing cone and cylinder.
The ammo being used is Mag-Tech 158 grain round nose standard pressure. The barrels of the revolvers are marked .38 Special +P.
All guns were pulled from the line and are being inspected this week along with a phone call to S&W.
Has anyone seen anything similar?
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09-27-2010, 08:17 PM
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That is interesting. Do you a photo of the fracture surface? I bet S&W would be anxious to have those two back for an analysis.
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09-27-2010, 08:27 PM
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This is the best pic that I have of the surface right now. And S&W will be getting the entire lot of guns back, not just those 2....24 I believe.
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09-27-2010, 08:30 PM
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Excellent time to get the guys into autos.... and I bet S&W will be willing to cut a good deal!
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09-27-2010, 08:33 PM
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Happened to NC Parole & Probation Model 65 with two piece barrels a few years back. Do these have them? I know S&W is no longer making two piece barrels.
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09-27-2010, 08:34 PM
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Yeah, unfortunately DOC mandates revolvers for corrections statewide, while we run the law enforcement cadets with 9mm Glocks.
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09-27-2010, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4864
Happened to NC Parole & Probation Model 65 with two piece barrels a few years back. Do these have them? I know S&W is no longer making two piece barrels.
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I will check.....however, I do know that these guns were just received from Smith in the last 3 or 4 months.
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09-27-2010, 08:39 PM
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Yup, those old fashioned pinned barrels were just a waste of money.
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09-27-2010, 08:39 PM
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Pretty neat that Corrections still uses wheelguns! Any particular reason why?
I am also curious if these were 2-piece barrels.
Thank God no one was hurt, that could have been catastrophic. My question is how do you shoot a revolver after the barrel has fallen off and not notice it
Looks like all the guns came from a bad lot, pretty discouraging that two guns that could have been used to save someone's life would fail like that. If I were shooting a S&W and the barrel fell off, it would take a LOT to restore my faith in S&W.
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09-27-2010, 08:45 PM
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I was working for NC Probation and Parole when this happened. Here Prisons got new 4" 64s and P&P got 3" 64s, issued and qualification ammunition was 125 grain SJHP(+P) from one of the big manufactures, depending on low bid. We had problems with barrels coming off, internal lock malfunctions, and misfires. S&W quietly took back all the new revolvers and traded them equally for new M&P40s with night sights and 3 magazines.
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09-27-2010, 08:46 PM
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Do you suppose that he or someone on the range would have noticed that he didn't have a barrel on the revolver? DUH! Sorry but it sounded from the post that he was all over he paper as if he shot it for a while. I suppose that almost anything can fail and does but this sounds a little strange.
Tom
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09-27-2010, 08:49 PM
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There were some photos on the forum of the two-piece barrel failures if anybody wants to dig for them. Please keep us posted on how S&W responds.
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09-27-2010, 08:51 PM
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I like the idea of revolvers still being issued as duty guns.....has the Corrections dept. considered switching to Ruger GP-100's?
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09-27-2010, 08:56 PM
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Wow, never saw that before.
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09-27-2010, 08:59 PM
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Well that's about as bad as it gets. Never thought I'd see the day when the barrel blows off of a 'quality' revolver. What have we come to?
Is nothing sacred?
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09-27-2010, 09:27 PM
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This has got to be an incredible failure of QC by S&W. I have a 67 that I regard as a "go to" revolver, have fired just about every +P round there is through it(and mine does not have a "+P" marked barrel.
I am interested to note IL failures here. Myabe S&W should not place the IL on LE weapons.....................
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09-27-2010, 09:37 PM
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I may be mistaken, but the newest two peice barrel 67s are the dash 6 models - Craig Buckland is using them to dominate the SSR division in IDPA. S&W has gone back to the one piece barrel this past summer and I think those are dash 7s. The revo pictured with the failure is a dash 5 - could it be that S&W is trying to recycle some of thier old stock? Those guns may be new to the users, but they aren't current manufacture.
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09-27-2010, 09:56 PM
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That is unacceptable coming form a quality gun maker like S&W. Heck, that’s unacceptable coming form any gun manufacturer. From the photos it looks like metal fatigue and failure, but after only 800 rounds? It would be interesting to see a metallurgist report on those broken guns.
Last edited by Kelly Green; 09-27-2010 at 09:59 PM.
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09-27-2010, 11:03 PM
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More that likely they were just using up some old frames they had in the warehouse. After all S&W does have a rather long history of releasing serial numbers out of sequence.
BTW, for those blaming the 2 piece barrels for this failure, look closely, that's a heavy profile one piece barrel that came apart. If I'm not mistaken the 2 piece barrels used the same half lug shroud as the 620 that covered the ejector rod and keyed into the frame. They also failed in an area which is typical for a failure of the one piece barrels, normal mode of failure for the 2 piece barrels is at the cap on the muzzle end.
Possible causes that may be at work. One is that some assembler got really stupid when tightening the barrel down. However I would expect a failure due to overtorquing to cause a failure at the transition between the extension and the barrel body, not within the threads. Second is that the mating face of the frame wasn't perpendicular to the bore for the barrel extension. This could cause a failure such as seen here. Basically tightening the barrel would impose a bending moment on the extension and depending on the strain path it could cause a failure at the point shown. Personally, that's what I suspect to be the cause in this case, it's a rather odd location for that failure. Finally it could be due to bad metalurgy, either improper grain structure or an alloy that didn't meet the specification.
If this failure is even a bit widespread I expect we will be seeing another recall. Especially if the cause is due to poor metalurgy. If S&W follows normal industry practice, they rely on their supplier providing material that meets specification and is certified to that specification. This means they don't have to pay to equip and maintain a metalurgy lab, they pay a bit extra to have the supplier carry that cost. It also means that the supplier will have to pay for the full cost of any recall that can be attributed to material that doesn't meet the specifications. BTW, you can bet that these barrels will be subjected to lots of testing at an independent lab, a quality manufacturer like S&W gets VERY VERY upset when a supplier screws up like this. I also suspect those frames will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and that things will get VERY tense in the QC areas.
Last edited by scooter123; 09-27-2010 at 11:06 PM.
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09-27-2010, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal tom
Do you suppose that he or someone on the range would have noticed that he didn't have a barrel on the revolver? DUH! Sorry but it sounded from the post that he was all over he paper as if he shot it for a while. I suppose that almost anything can fail and does but this sounds a little strange.
Tom
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The corrections recruits shoot two stages from the 7 yeard line at night. One stage is 3 strings of 6 rounds each utilizing a handheld flashlight. The second is a repeat of the first stage however no handheld flashlight, only whatever ambient moonlight is available. On that particular night it was very dark, just enough light to be able to see the target, however the recruits are essentially point shooting so there is no visualizing the front sight, hence he did not notice the missing barrel. Cadet to RO's ratio is 6:1
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09-27-2010, 11:27 PM
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This is a totally worthless reply, but all I can say when I see something like this is. . .
. . .for cryin' out loud.
Andy
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09-27-2010, 11:31 PM
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I have been shooting Smith and Wesson revolvers for over 30 years. I have never, until recently, heard of one breaking off like that. I have heard about, though never seen, the non pinned versions occassionally unscrewing themselves, but, nothing like this.
Really, its one of the most simple parts of a revolver. Its a screw and a thread...they got it right for over 100 years and now, its a part that has problems? Really? How does that happen?
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09-27-2010, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123
BTW, you can bet that these barrels will be subjected to lots of testing at an independent lab, a quality manufacturer like S&W gets VERY VERY upset when a supplier screws up like this. I also suspect those frames will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and that things will get VERY tense in the QC areas.
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I wish that were the case, but honestly I get the impression that S&W doesn't care about quality as much anymore. Look at some of the guns coming out of their shop these days. I bet they replace the lot of revolvers and that's it.
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09-27-2010, 11:48 PM
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Sgt, it's been happening for 100 years if the stories I've heard from some old timers chewing the fat at shooting ranges are to be believed. I once had a Columbus Ohio Cop back in the 70's tell me that he'd once broken the barrel off a model 19 over the head of a drunk, which was why his current gun had a brass butt plate on it. Of course, some of those range tales have to be taken with an understanding that there may be a "bit" of exageration going on.
The reason why we all hear about it now is simply due to the internet. Basically, stuff happens, it always has and always will.
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09-28-2010, 01:48 AM
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Thanks for posting this. Perhaps we all should closely examine our stainless barreled S&W's? Better safe then sorry here. Kyle
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09-28-2010, 02:19 AM
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We had SW range guns send their barrels downrange but they were .357 and pretty well used.
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09-28-2010, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyarmorguy
Friday night we were running a Corrections Class through night fire quaification. Corrections is required to shoot .38 Special revolvers and the academy uses S&W Model 67's. These guns are new, with no more than 800 rounds through any one gun.
A student, who has consistently been a good shooter, was all over the target. Inspection of his revolver revealed that the barrel was missing....yes, missing. It was recovered on the ground where he was shooting from. The barrel separated at the threads halfway down the forcing cone.
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This is why I never recommend anybody try to change a barrel for different length: it's so easy to stress the frame and weaken it when torquing the barrel. Pretty much inexcusable for the factory, but when you fire the gunsmiths and hire min wage monkeys....
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09-28-2010, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88
I wish that were the case, but honestly I get the impression that S&W doesn't care about quality as much anymore. Look at some of the guns coming out of their shop these days. I bet they replace the lot of revolvers and that's it.
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SW is extremely concerned about finding the defects in their guns... however, they now use their customers to locate them.
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09-28-2010, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt 127
Really, its one of the most simple parts of a revolver. Its a screw and a thread...they got it right for over 100 years and now, its a part that has problems? Really? How does that happen?
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It has to be torqued in to crush the washer and end up exactly where it should be vertical. Doing it right means shaving the end of the barrel fit surface until it's just right.... doing it lazy means getting a bigger wrench and cranking until the front sight points up.
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09-28-2010, 03:27 AM
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This thread is really food for thought. Over the last year I've been transitioning from semi's over to my 686's for concealed carry, just for the extra reliablity I feel they could provide in certain circumstances. Things like close contact where you might not be able to pull a semi-auto back enough to make sure the slide is in battery, i.e. something like a wrestling match.
For some I know my concerns aren't an issue since they claim that I'm a fool for thinking that if I'm theatened by an unarmed person I'll try my best to deal with it the old school way (leave, talk, fists etc.) before drawing my weapon. They tend to shrug off my "The force needs to match the threat" line I give them feeling that if they are threatened, in any way whatsoever, then it's time to clear leather.
I always leave them with, "Let's just hope you don't come across someone like the Valedictorian of your local High School with no priors who just happens to be acting like an idiot that day and you shoot him and then you have no witnesses that will back up your claims that he was a deadly threat."
When it comes to life & death you better be about as sure as a person can be on each & every aspect, especially your weapon's reliability.............
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09-28-2010, 09:14 AM
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I read on the Net that the Hong Kong cops sent back some for the same reason. Don't know if its true.
Some Ruger Redhawk barrels also came off, and it was traced to leaving some manufacturing liquid on barrels over the weekend, I think. Whatever that was, it weakened the steel.
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09-28-2010, 11:38 AM
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I have been working on a project gun of mine for quite a while....It's a 686-4 2.5 inch. It has been dished for moonclips, I bobbed the hammer, put those sexy Nill grips on it, did an action job, and then installed a C&S fixed rear sight......this is when all the trouble started for me. Since the 686 has the RR front sight, I had no way of adjusting the POI, so I had the front sight dovetailed and had a tritium 1911 sight installed. Thinking that would fix the problem I was really dissapointed that I could not even get the gun to hit my target from 15 yards (the front sight was almost hanging off the dovetail, it looked terrible!).....so back to the drawing board. As it turns out, the barrel needed to be turned to the right a few thousandths.....however this barrel was already severely over torqued from the factory. The barrel was put on a lathe and just turned by hand (no need to turn the lathe on and take too much off the shoulder)......this finally corrected the problem and had I done this at first the RR sight might have worked, but as it turned out I love the tritium front sight and this gun has turned out to be a favorite. I have another 686-4 2.5 inch that I am wanting to convert to a 3 incher......and I'm sure the barrel is probably not aligned or over torqued on this one as well......
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09-28-2010, 01:21 PM
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OP contact S&W. After they deny any problem, blame your maintenance and then blame your ammo, they will quietly exchange your 67's for free M&P pistols.
Thats what they did here. Then S&W will issue a press release announcing your agencies "adoption" of the new M&P pistol!
S&W's QC/QA may not be worth anything, but their PR folks are top notch. Regards 18DAI.
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09-28-2010, 02:06 PM
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Washer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bountyhunter
It has to be torqued in to crush the washer and end up exactly where it should be vertical. Doing it right means shaving the end of the barrel fit surface until it's just right.... doing it lazy means getting a bigger wrench and cranking until the front sight points up.
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When did they start using a washer?
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09-28-2010, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI
OP contact S&W. After they deny any problem, blame your maintenance and then blame your ammo, they will quietly exchange your 67's for free M&P pistols.
Thats what they did here. Then S&W will issue a press release announcing your agencies "adoption" of the new M&P pistol!
S&W's QC/QA may not be worth anything, but their PR folks are top notch. Regards 18DAI.
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Why not switch them for more 64's/67's since that's what the law requires.
Maybe it's time they try a Taurus or Rugers? Can't possibly be worse.
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09-28-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ms
When did they start using a washer?
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I thought there was some kind of washer in there. maybe not, that's what I thought.
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09-28-2010, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyarmorguy
The corrections recruits shoot two stages from the 7 yeard line at night. One stage is 3 strings of 6 rounds each utilizing a handheld flashlight. The second is a repeat of the first stage however no handheld flashlight, only whatever ambient moonlight is available. On that particular night it was very dark, just enough light to be able to see the target, however the recruits are essentially point shooting so there is no visualizing the front sight, hence he did not notice the missing barrel. Cadet to RO's ratio is 6:1
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You corrections guys do it differently than LE. I finished my firearms block about a month and a half ago. IIRC, we fired 3x 2-shot strings in ambient light followed by 2x 3-shot strings and one 6-shot string.Then we did the same thing with flashlights, all at 7 yards. I lost one point in the night shoot and that was the only point I lost all day between the 2 handgun relays, the nighttime handgun relay and the shotgun relay. The funny part is the point I lost was during the 6 shot string with a flashlight... I was trying to use the sights as they told us. I should have stuck to point shooting. Oh well, I still won top gun by a wide margin.
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09-28-2010, 03:55 PM
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Same course....I just didn't break it down by each string. I do the firearms blocks for both LE and Corrections.
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09-28-2010, 07:29 PM
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When he lost his barrel I would have thought the change in recoil and muzzle flash would have been a hint that something was outta whack. I'd put money on the over torqued theory.
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09-28-2010, 07:59 PM
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The failure appears to me to have been in the barrel threads; looks like a standard threaded barrel attachment, rather than the 2-piece design. The fracture surface appears to be brittle, and because the guns were fairly new, fatigue is unlikely. Just a guess on my part, but I'd suspect intergranular stress corrosion cracking. Maybe some bad 400 series stainless, or perhaps some improper thread sealant was applied. Looks like a job for a good metallurgist. Regardless, glad that nobody was hurt and that the failures didn't occur during a more critical event. Very bad PR for our favorite gun company; I hope that you get a satisfactory explanation and that you can share it with us. Thanks for posting. -S2
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09-28-2010, 08:06 PM
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Two new S&W Model 67. Less than 800 rounds.
Firing line, night fire. At the same time, two barrels fail.
One flies off the gun and the other is angled downwards.
What is wrong with S&W.
It is not the first time this has happen.
In 2008, I had 4 Model 64's loose their barrels during firing.
They just broke right off.
S&W quality is down, way down.
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09-28-2010, 08:46 PM
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I once talked with a guy who said new S&W's were nothing more than overpriced American made Taurus........maybe there was some truth to it after all!
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09-28-2010, 08:52 PM
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Unfortunately the alternative is buy something made in Brazil or made in Turkey :-(
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09-28-2010, 09:31 PM
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I had this happen to me about 20 yrs ago, with model 64. Actually showed up late for range at Ohio Dept of Rehabilitation & Correction. Picked up the last weapon on the table and fired 1 round at 25 yds. Did not fire a second as I could not find the front sight. The the guys in the next lanes started yelling at me to not fire. They saw the barrel go down range about 5 yds. I sheared off right in front of the yoak. The institution sent all the weapons (about 60) back to S&W for inspection and repair if necessary. Smith did replace the barrel for no cost.
These weapons were about 5 yrs old at the time. With probably several thousand rounds through them.
FCSO117
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09-28-2010, 09:34 PM
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Maybe it was MIM.
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09-28-2010, 11:01 PM
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First thing, that not a two piece barrel, second it was over tighen or 125 gr +P has been in it. That +p is the same as a 357 in most ways. S&W will fix it, but to them it will be another fix, nothing else.
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09-28-2010, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyarmorguy
A student, who has consistently been a good shooter, was all over the target. Inspection of his revolver revealed that the barrel was missing....yes, missing.
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Well, at least now we know that even without a barrel a target can still be hit...somewhere. I always did wonder if a bullet out of a chamber would even hit a target at five yards- that is very, very interesting on it's own.
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09-29-2010, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Griffith
Well, at least now we know that even without a barrel a target can still be hit...somewhere. I always did wonder if a bullet out of a chamber would even hit a target at five yards- that is very, very interesting on it's own.
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That is what I'm thinking-How many rounds did he fire before realizing the barrel was missing??? I'm hoping it wasn't more than 6
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09-29-2010, 09:43 AM
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Wonder what the sight picture looked like with no barrel?
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09-29-2010, 09:50 AM
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I find all this very disturbing. Hey Smith & Wesson, are you listening? This is absolutely despicable.
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Tags
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1911, 38spl, 44 magnum, 686, concealed, ejector, glock, gunsmith, idpa, leather, lock, military, model 15, model 19, model 65, model 66, nill, redhawk, ruger, scope, shroud, smith and wesson, taurus, transition, tritium |
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