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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 10-07-2010, 05:36 PM
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This has been beat to death and I won't let it die. I get hassled every time someone looks at my Model 19. "Be careful about shooting magnums in that, or you will blow it up, crack the frame, warp the frame, crack the forcing cone, etc. etc. etc... Beyond some red hot .357's with some flame cutting issues that would be bad for anything, how can no one say a word about the J frame being weaker??? Most of the J's these days are made out of mostly aluminum with that touch of scandium. And yet some good heat treated steel and more of it is supposedly weaker? What am I missing? Even Gunblast wasn't one way or the other. I'm not trying to wear out a beautiful old Smith here and worse one that parts are drying up but still... What gives?
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:06 PM
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Two things, first a tiny amount of scandium in an aluminum alloy makes it vastly superior to the pre-scandium alloys, particularly in resisting stretching. In steel guns the materials and heat treatments have both been improved.

So the materials are better.

And second, the CNC machining S&W now uses, allows tolerances to be held so tight that there is not enough play between the parts to beat up the frames. Which was how guns shot themselves loose.

So, it's better materials and tighter tolerances that account for more durable revolvers, that are then able to withstand higher pressure cartridges.

/c
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:11 PM
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What gives is the flat machined on the underside of the forcing cone to clear the crane. I believe that J frames don't have this flat and know the L, N, or X frames don't have this flat. It creates a weak area in the forcing cone and thus a well documented history of some barrels cracking in this area when used with light bullets and hot loads of Magnums.

As for why it mostly happens with light bullets, it's due to Physics. Kinetic Energy is the product of the bullet mass time the SQUARE of the velocity. So, with pressure held constant, a lighter bullet moving faster will have more Kinetic Energy when it hits the forcing cone than a heavier and slower moving bullet. This is why the consensus advice for use of Magnums in the K frames is to choose a load with a 147 grain or heavier bullet and avoid anything with a lighter bullet.

What this advice doesn't take into account is that commercial 357 Magnums today are normally loaded to pressure levels below the maximum and this seems to be even more the case for 357 Magnums running 130 grain and lighter bullets. Basically, there are a lot of reduced recoil 357 Magnums on the market and they are probably moderately safe to use in a model 19 provided the muzzle energy listed from a 4 inch barrel is 500 ft.lbs. or less.

However, step up to a load running a 110-130 grain bullet at 650 to 700 plus ft.lbs. from a 4 inch barrel and you'll end up by cracking the forcing cone.

As for why this happened, when the model 19 was originally developed there were basically just 2 bullet weights available, the 147 grain full wadcutter and the 158 grain semi wadcutter. During the 70's Super Vel started producing their fast and hot loads that featured lighter bullets in the 125 to 130 grain range. That is when the model 19 started to develop a reputation for cracking the forcing cone and in some cases it only took 1 box of ammo to do it.

Personally, I find the model 19 too light for comfortable shooting with Magnums, running 1 or 2 boxes downrange of even the 158 grain loads just isn't much fun. So, I treat my K frames as 38 caliber shooters and don't worry about the potential damage that the Magnums can cause. If I'm in the mood for making some noise, I'll load up my 620 and have some fun.
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:31 PM
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Those are two of the best most informed answers to that question I have ever read. Understandable issues with recoil aside, I kind of wish big time they would add a "fixed" version of the 19 and a few other K frames to the "Classics" collection. So from those two replies I gather that some Speer Gold Dot short barrel in .357 would be one fine load for a four inch Model 19. And best of all I have some great answers when I get questioned. Thank you both Scooter and Chuck!
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:07 AM
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Good read, very informative, the best reply that I have read on this topic.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:17 AM
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Very Good Replies in this thread..

Cracked K Frame Forcing Cone
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:31 AM
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Bob;

The factory has stated they will not produce new K frame .357s. There was a recent thread regarding the "Classic" model 15, which by appearance is a .38 Special model 19 (heavy instead of tapered barrel).
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:26 AM
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I have been eye'ing the Model 15 Classic on the web page but have yet to see one in the display case. The Classic's Model 10 appears to be nothing more than the last gen version with the heavy barrel and Magna grips. Not exactly what I would call a "Classic"...

That is one raw picture. I think I would cry like a little kid if I opened my gun to clean and saw that. Heck, it brings a tear to my eye looking at the picture even.

Even with the great explanations I still find it funny a J frame would be stronger. But I get the point of where it is milled and cut weakens it. Who's brilliant design was that anyways? But then I doubt anyone thought about using ungodly fps ammunition back then.
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:37 AM
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I will say this about steel "J" frames; I recently attended Clint Smith's "Revolvers Only" class. The guy on my right shot a Model 60-15 with the 'lock' and the guy on my left shot a chromed Model 36. They shot the fairly stiff .38 Special non-lead load approved for use on Clint's range. Eight other guys were shooting scandium framed guns mostly .38 Special with a couple of .45s. Every one of those eight failed one way or another before we finished the 750 round course. The two J frames and my K frame Model 66/2.5" never missed a beat. Take a steel J frame and shoot .38 Special for practice and then carry .357m and you won't go wrong.
JMHO, ............. Big Cholla
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:03 PM
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I think most of the issues with 357 k frames were from when police agencies started mandating using similar power level loads for training and street use. Yes a heavy diet of 357 will beat up anything including the shooter! I doubt many people fire extensive amounts of 357's anymore. The other thing is the amount of metal between each chamber of the cylinder in the j-frame is much more than in a 6 shot k, and the bolt locking notch is offset which creates a stronger cylinder. And yes heat treat and production methods are better now than in the 60's and 70's.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:45 PM
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I have shot quite a bit of wussy retail .357's and my own major power loads in the wifes new 60 Pro. Does not seem to phase it! Nor me for that matter! It's a handful for her with .357's in it. But thats only because she hasn't dialed in her body mechanics yet.

It seems to digest them as well as my 686+. I've noted all of the 60 Pro's measurements. If I seem them changing I will report back. Heck,,, neither have even flame cut yet.

I'm wanting a 5" 60 now. The heck with hauling a 686 to the woods to kill Bambi. A 60 will do the job just fine.
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blastfact View Post
I have shot quite a bit of wussy retail .357's and my own major power loads in the wifes new 60 Pro. Does not seem to phase it! Nor me for that matter! It's a handful for her with .357's in it. But thats only because she hasn't dialed in her body mechanics yet.

It seems to digest them as well as my 686+. I've noted all of the 60 Pro's measurements. If I seem them changing I will report back. Heck,,, neither have even flame cut yet.

I'm wanting a 5" 60 now. The heck with hauling a 686 to the woods to kill Bambi. A 60 will do the job just fine.

Do they even make a 5 inch model 60? What would be a hoot would be to get on one of those hunting shows where they do the hunters roundup and displaying your antlers with that "tiny little revolver". The local PBS station carries Michigan Outdoors and they do a roundup every year following the Deer Season.
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:47 AM
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Thanks for not letting it die maximumbob54! Very educational thread!
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Last edited by gunlovingirl; 10-09-2010 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:52 AM
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I have been using my J frame steel model 640 for about 13 years with primarily factory 38 special loads and it took about 35000 rounds before there was a catostrophic failure where the barrel and frame blew downrange and the frame cracked.And yes this was with factory 158 grain FACTORY AMMO.Smith just sent me a new 640.All things manmade can fail and this gun was very heavily shot during its lifetime.I now won't put any 357 loads in the gun,practice with factory ammo,and carry Speer Gold Dot 135 grain Hollow Point.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:37 PM
ShrinkMD ShrinkMD is offline
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Wow, that's a lot of rounds through a J frame. That's probably more rounds than most people put through any of their guns.

Nice for S&W to stand behind the product and send you another one...
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640, 650, 686, classics, commercial, j frame, k frame, lock, model 10, model 15, model 19, model 60, model 66, scandium, wadcutter

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