Definitely a failure of the IL.

__________________
"I'm just a dog chasing cars."

The most probable cause of a double charge with a 550B is when the press is being set up for a new powder charge. It is easy to make a mistake at this time.

After the press is up and running, you are not apt to fail to advance the cartridge. It is before a rhythm is established when the failure to advance would be most likely to happen (allowing a double charge).

MMhoium;
Don't let this accident discourage you from reloading for your revolvers. I am SURE that you will be more vigilant in the future (as, hopefully, we all will)!

Good luck and keep us posted...

FWIW
Dale53

The .38 Special and .357 are the ones that really worry me. A .45 I can see the powder level in when placing the bullet prior to seating. Same goes for 9mm, .40, and to a lesser degree 10mm. .38's and .357's are very difficult to see into and will EASILY accept a double or triple charge. Of course you've still got to make a conscious effort to look each time you place a bullet. Advancing the shell plate on a 550 is an automatic response to me, having loaded tens of thousands of rounds on one. The potential for mishap is when something happens like a primer doesn't seat properly. I have to stop and remove the already charged case from the shellplate prior to cycling the handle again or a double charge will obviously occur. Someone over on the Brian Enos forum was working on some sort of electronic powder check for the 550 a few years ago and had a working prototype as I recall. Anyone ever hear anything about this?

Say what you will... That is an overpressure charge.

Or you could bring it back to life. The frame, rear sight and cylinder are gone, but the rest of the gun (barrel, sideplate, grips, lockwork) may be usable. The barrel would be a great start on a project gun, or you could part them out. A complete 5" M-625 barrel group should bring $100 or so. I've never seen a stainless N-frame sideplate for sale, so I don't know what it would bring. The complete lockwork is probably worth another $100, and the grips would likely fetch $50.

After all, it's not like you're messing up a pristine collector's item at this point...


Okie John

OK, serious question: do they make MIM cylinders? I thought one piece barrels, frames and cylinders were forged.

Sorry to see Your beautiful revolver destroyed.
Grateful to hear that You were not injured.

FWIW: every gun detonation (long bbl or short) which I've heard about, was firing cartridges loaded on a progressive machine.

After viewing several destroyed revolvers, I've kept My Rockchucker press, and have continued loading the old fashioned way, albeit slower, though I feel much safer.

Its either a double charge or you were using a faster burning powder prior to set up and some was still left in the powder measure.

You make a very good point. There is no substitute for being able to look down in a loading block of charged cases and visually checking that each one has one, and only one, charge of powder in it.

I started on an RCBS Junior, still have it, and may go back to it. Seeing things like this gives me the heebie jeebies, especially since I've had a near miss myself.

I was just thinking about getting a progressive reloader(550b),I agree most double charge.i.e.blown up guns have been reloads from a progressive reloader.Something about "Progressive" that gives you more than you bargained for.It looks to be a over pressure load to do that to any gun.

Yep....something to said safety-wise on non-progressive presses.
I do all my reloading on a Spar T press, a Rock Chucker and a Lee Turret press...all non-progressive presses.

__________________
Bob
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

There is a reason that nobody else said that...

The pictures tell me one thing clearly -- this was caused by excess pressure. Look at the 12 O'Clock chamber: The brass base has been melted and welded to the chamber walls. That's caused by pressure that's far too high. And it tells us that the problem originated here, though it might have spread to the right-hand chamber.

Look at the left-hand chamber: That's caused by pressure from the center chamber leaking in and crushing the casing.

The question is: What caused the excess pressure?

There are typically three culprits: Too much powder, a bullet seated too deeply; and a bullet crimped too tightly. Each of these can cause a catastrophic failure.

What if the mark on the bullet was caused not by the frame, but by the edge of the seating die? That would mean the bullet was seated far too deeply.

tk

__________________
NRA instructor, SIG armorer

I didn't know that over crimping .45acp could raise pressure enough to cause catostrophic failure. Where did you hear this? I've used a very heavy roll crimp on max pin loads for a 625 with no problems.

__________________
Mark

This.......

__________________
N.R.A. BENEFACTOR Member

The 'underload' detonation issue is almost always in regard to very slow rifle powders such as H4831. But...there's a reason why they tell you not to underload H110 and WW296, too.

Not the .45 ACP specifically, but cartridges in general.

The pressure curve of the ignition sequence occurs over thousandths of a second. The bullet releasing from the cartridge causes pressure to vent as it reaches it's peak.

Any condition that delays the release of the bullet -- even for a fraction of a second -- will cause an increase in pressure.

Over-crimping is not a common source of problems. It seems mostly to come into play when using too much roll-crimp with magnum cartridges, or when using missized bullets.

In this case, I'd lean toward an overcharge or problem with bullet seating.

About the only other condition that could cause a pressure spike is a chamber obstruction.

tk

__________________
NRA instructor, SIG armorer

There's a lot of myths and fairytales about internal ballistics in this thread. Hey, I'm glad your not hurt, but from the pictures that is an overcharge of powder, cut and dry. I know your are searching for other explanations, but you could put a picture of your gun in the dictionary next to "double charge". It is a good reminder to all of us handloaders not to take what we do lightly. I hope S&W can do something for you and you have better luck in the future with your handloading ventures.

"But...there's a reason why they tell you not to underload H110 and WW296, too."

Yep!

That reason is that H110/W296 require a minimum of 90% load density to burn correctly. Going below that threshold will result in a squib, not a detonation.

If the cases on either side of the one which blew were empty, the exploded round would have to have been the last in the string. I assume that the primer is no longer in the suspect case. If it were, I would look for a firing pin indent. I also assume that two bullets cannot be seated in the case along with a powder charge. Because the bullet, complete with gouged nose, was found at your feet, I would guess that, for whatever bizarre reason, the round fired with the chamber out of battery and the gouge is from the bullet hitting the edge of the forcing cone. As unlikely as that scenario seems, primers under the exactly correct set of circumstance, can do very unusual things, including sympathetically detonate. I don't know if I'll buy into the overcrimping scenario as a possible cause of a kaboom but jamming a bullet into the edge of the forcing cone and having that round fire will definitely raise pressures to the level necessary for one.



Bruce

Even though you are careful, there are times when the phone rings, the dog wants to go out, your wife calls or something, that makes you forget to rotate the table on the Dillon 550. It has happened to me, but I never have tried to load to "factory" specs, only ICORE and IDPA (125PF) loads. Glad you are OK!

Thanks for posting. I have a 625JM and it's a beautiful firearm. I'm also just setting up a reloading area with a Hornady single stage and a LNL AP and casefeeder. I am in the process of equipping the LNL AP with all of the DILLION alarm systems along with all the ULTIMATE RELOADERS (online videos) improvements, bullet tray, roller handle, powder linkage limiter. I milled a 1/8 deep slot with a 1/4 ball end-mill in the frame to make clearance for Dillon Powder Check systems ram tripping/activating rod. If I end up not liking the Dillon low powder charge alarm, I'll swap in an RCBS LOCK OUT unit. All of my initial reload for a few months will be done with the single stage as I learn. Your photos will be in my loading area, thanks again for the photos, but I'm truly sorry at your misfortune with the JM.

I couldn't find anything about overcrimping handgun cartridges causing high pressure. What I did find is a bunch of places stating that a heavy roll crimp and good case tension are needed to keep the bullets in the unfired cartridges in the cylinder from working out of the case. This is what I've experienced with .44mag, .445sm, and hot .45 colt.

Do you have any links supporting the idea that an overly heavy crimp could have caused this?

__________________
Mark

I taper crimp, so it most certainly wasn't a crimp issue.

Also, my powder measure is always set up for Universal, it never changes so there was no likelihood of mixed powder.

I'm really anxious to hear with the guys at Smith say. I'm fairly confident they will say overcharge as well, even though I still don't see it. I tried to replicate a double charge and didn't even come close. The cut in the bullet isn't typical of a seating issue; it was propelled into something and matches up perfectly to the edge of the frame when not indexed correctly.

Sgt, this is the same gun as the one on GlockTalk. The guy that posted it is a good friend of mine, he used to stop into my gun store all the time. Its good to see that the message is making its way out.

Again, thanks guys for the discussion. One of the greatest things about these forums is difference of opinion.

No matter how you slice it - machines can fail us and often in a catastrophic way! I have never experienced a double charge failure but have had a Beretta 96 fail to go into battery and ignite a round regardless. Little bits of brass went everywhere and I am thankful for safety glasses. Have also seen a Remington 40 X Custom in 204 Ruger blow its top on Hornady ammunition. Hornady wanted to settle the matter with a "free" coffee cup... Uh, not so fast my friend!

I would like to see more information on this also.
Thanks,
augy

I think you're right. The bullet that was found on the ground probably came from unfired round #6 which was sitting in the on-deck chamber.

The explosion in the 12 o'clock chamber probably ruptured #6's case, setting off its powder. Uncontained, with the cylinder already split and flying apart, this round was nothing more than a squib, pushing the bullet just hard enough to graze the frame, then falling to the ground.

I also don't think it fired out of battery. A large pistol primer is only .210" diameter and I don't know how far off center you can hit it and still get the primer to go.

I want to hear what Smith says and I would also like to hear what Dillion says.

John

Who's that Dillion fellar? *sry mate, couldnt help myself*

Yesterday I would have bet that a overload in a .45 ACP case wouldn't have blown the cylinder on a S&W. I am disconcerted.
Any metallurgists in the crowd? How was that cylinder made?

Geoff
Who is stunned.

Your "Guardian Angel" was with you that day sir. No matter how this happened I'm glad you are uninjured. That's a catastropic failure with a capital C! I had a Dillon 450 years ago and sold it after my best friend blew his 6" 57 up with a double charge when reloading some hot LSWC's on it up in Kodiak, Ak. back in 1985. I wish I hac a pic of the revolver as it looked very similar to yours. I now use nothing but my antique Rock Chucker for reloading.

Do you thoroughly check your brass for cracks, ect.? My only guess after seeing that pic has to be a DC.

__________________
V/R
Roger / SG

I didn't suggest it caused this -- I simply said that excess crimp can delay the release of the bullet and cause a pressure spike.

The most likely explanation to me is an overcharge -- but since the OP is skeptical of that, I had questioned whether the bullet could have been seated too deeply.

tk

__________________
NRA instructor, SIG armorer

You said that a bullet crimped too tightly can cause catastrophic failure:

Since I routinely use a very heavy roll crimp in several cartridges, I'm interested in your source for this information. Do you have one?

__________________
Mark

Why would you have made that bet? There are an awful lot of warnings out there from knowledgeable people about hot-rodding the 625. Most are in the context of the .45 LC, but the real issue is that there isn't a lot of metal in these .45 N-frame cylinders.

the vast majority of overcharges and blow ups I have seen have occured with ammo loaded on progressives like the dillon- a friend of mine blew a SAA- he was reloading and something jammed the base of his dillon-(spent primer or such) which resluted in him twisting it back and forth a little to free it up- must have casued a double charge. It may be slow and old fashioned but using a single stage press and visually checking powder level in every case charged is the best way to decrease the chances of these things happening

I put my powder in manually. If something goes wrong, I want to know it was my fault. I don't want to put that kind of dependance on any machine, no matter how good a machine it may be. I have a 625-8 and it is a very solid revolver. I regularly load 230 and 255 lead SWC's over a little over 5gr of unique with great results, but some of the older-thinner brass comes out a little shredded at the case mouths sometimes. I guess I should be a little more critical when I cull cases. Glad your OK, and thanks for thinking of us, and sharring with all of us. flapjack

I have 0 handloading experience, but my question is, how can a double-charged .45 ACP be any hotter than some of the blue whistler dinosaur killer handloaded .44 Magnums some guys shoot through N-Frames?

A hot load is a lot less than a double charge.

John

I just didn't think an ACP case had enough capacity for a major overload, unlike the Specials and Magnums.

Geoff
Who needs to set up his reloaders.

Ugh. I have one of those satin nickel 442's, and its loss would make me very sad.

I'm glad you're OK -- as that's as good a reminder as I've ever seen as to why we should always wear good eye protection...

Still, that's precisely the reason I don't reload...

Excuse a little flippancy, but the movie quote that comes to mind upon viewing these photos?

"Think you used enough dynamite, there, Butch?"

[QUOTE=Outrider;135674982]Still, that's precisely the reason I don't reload...
QUOTE]

Outrider, Over 40 years I've reloaded many tens of thousands of rounds and have never had a failure (knock on wood). On the other hand, I have had factory ammo fail on me occassionally. I do have my reloading system set up such that I explicitly check every round for powder level, among other things. And, I intentionally don't use a progressive press. But then, that's just me. Reloading is definitely not for everyone, for a variety of reasons. Another quote for you: "Man's got to know his limitations" Dirty Harry, Magnum Force.

Roger that! Those photos are chilling when you think about what might have happened.

It is just a flat-out miracle that nobody was injured.

The cylinder walls are thinner on a .45 cal N-frame as compared to a .44 but a .44 can be blown to pieces, too. The M27 would probably be the most likely to not come unglued, but even they can be blown apart, too.

Fair question......it could depend on the powder being used and whether the case would hold a double-charge.

Well, folks, I discussed this incident with my best friend, who is an avid shooter and reloader, a rocket scientist by education (literally) and a ballistics engineer for Uncle Sam. The science of weaponry and shooting has been his professional life for 30+ years, he has forgotten more about firearms than I will ever know, and he is my go-to guy for any firearms questions.

He pointed out that a failure of this sort could be caused by many things, including overcharging, a manufacturing defect, or metal fatigue. He explained, for example -- and this comment is not about this specific case -- that shooting a single slightly overcharged load might not cause a problem, but shooting a number of them will weaken the gun over time, and can eventually cause a catastrophic failure. His bottom line answer: Nothing can be determined for sure from what we now know, and the best thing to do is wait and see what the manufacturer says.

mmhoium, please keep us posted...thanks!

WOW!!
The Good Lord was with you that day.
A question from a "Non Expert"- Could several mishaps have occurred at the same time to have caused this:
1. powder over charge
2. high primer
3. cylinder not indexed into full battery
4. metal fatigue

Looking at the pictures it almost looks as if the following round detonated as well. I know you said both were empties but the brass looks as if it was blown outwards on the round to the right. Anyway, guns are replaceable but body parts aren't. Glad you are ok.

I'm very glad that your OK. Man, that was a close one!

I vote for a high primer detonation in the next one up to fire, or maybe an out of battery detonation of that one, caused by an overpressure round that was fired.

The case of that one looks like it was blown apart whereas the already fired one on the left of battery looks crushed.

Odd though, that the one you say you fired that started all the mess looks like it blew apart as well. That may have been an overpressure round.

So maybe it could have been that the one you fired was an overpressure round which blew up the gun and detonated the unfired round which was next up to fire.

That's my best guess. I hope that S&W will do something for you as far as a new gun.

Howdy-
sorry to say, but looks like a double charge as most probable cause, and can't be "ruled out" based on just what we see. A disaster would have been a squib that only got in as far as inside the forcing cone, allowing the cylinder to still turn, followed by a double charged round. Such things are well discussed in books like Jerry Kuhnhausen's excellent service manuals, as well as other sources, and photos of such mishaps abound. I case split, by itself, with a normal charge, would not cause this - case splits are commonplace when brass has been fired and reloaded many, many times. With lower pressure rounds like .38 special, and .45 ACP loaded to spec, this normally causes no harm to either shooter nor firearm. High pressure stuff is another story!
On the other hand, I would count you as coming out ahead to have no injury from this; take heart in that! Another gun, you can eventually buy ( if your budget is like mine, eventually. If better, sooner! ). Glad you are alright!
I'm sure S&W would perform a failure analysis on this if they had the remains in their hands, and all info was provided to them.
Please understand that no offense is intended by any of this.