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12-06-2010, 06:12 PM
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Penetration
Hi:
After reading Revho's post of "Summer Carry/Winter Carry" I started considering caliber penetration in winter clothing?
I was going to consider the small CCWs, but recalled some forum member CCW big calibers.
Which would penetrate deeper: FMJ, SP, or HP?
From The "Best" to "Worst" 1 thru 9?
1 .38 spl 2" barrel
2 .380acp
3 9mm
4 .40 S&W
5 10mm
6 .44spl
7 .44 mag
8 .45acp
9 45 colt
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12-06-2010, 07:10 PM
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I don't think the penetration will be an issue with anything from the 9mm up. What is a concern is hollowpoint SD ammo getting plugged with clothing and failing to expand, in which case you may have problems with overpenetration. Fortunately, reports by the FBI and various ammunition companies indicate that the current premium SD hollowpoints rarely have issues with plugged cavities, so pony up the bucks for something like the Speer Gold Dot and you should be adequately protected.
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12-06-2010, 10:11 PM
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Lack of penetration IS an issue with modern ammo. Most hollow points don't penetrate worth a damn. Generally speaking, the major manufacturers are afraid to load ammo that actually penetrates. Nowadays we have all kinds of trick hollow points that are supposed to be a substitute for good old fashioned velocity, but it just ain't so. Today we have some great hollow point bullets (Speer Gold Dot and Barnes XPB) but the lawyers tell the manufacturers that they must not load them too hot. You know the excuses... "The little girls we call police officers can't handle the recoil!" Or better yet, "The bullet might overpenetrate and kill a grandmother of 15 at an ACLU rally!" On and on it goes...
Attempting to rank the above listed cartridges is a waste of time. It all depends on the bullet, and in this day and age a good small bullet can perform better than an average or below average larger bullet. Oh, and did I mention that velocity is still important too?
Dave Sinko
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12-06-2010, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sinko
Lack of penetration IS an issue with modern ammo. Most hollow points don't penetrate worth a damn. Generally speaking, the major manufacturers are afraid to load ammo that actually penetrates.
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What's your criteria for enough penetration? One that goes through the refrigerator and gets the BG on the other side? That's a ridiculous statement.
9mm alone does an admirable job with just about all good JHP's. If 12-13 inches isn't enough maybe you need a 375 H&H.
Pistol Cartridges (9x19mm Luger)
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12-06-2010, 11:55 PM
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I was taught two in the chest and one in the head makes one stop all anti-social activity.
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12-07-2010, 12:43 AM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Most of the premium self defense and law enforcement ammunition made today derives their penetration and expansion values from the FBI's gelatin testing. The FBI decided that so many inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin, both minimum and maximum amounts, would produce the best incapacitation. Modern bullet technology and design allows manufacturers to taylor their expansion to within the FBI's specs.
Nobody else with any kind of credentials has come up with a better system.
I worked my department's robbery-homicide unit for a good few years. I was the squad's gun geek and weighed and measured a lot of spent, recovered bullets during that time. Adequate penetration wasn't a problem very often. Torso hits resulted in through-and-throughs more than half the time with calibers of 9mm, .38 Special and up.
A big problem before that was inadequate penetration. Light weight, high velocity hollowpoint bullets often failed to reach the intended target, breaking apart on pretty flimsy barriers. A big goal of the FBI's gelatin testing was to find handgun bullets that could defeat light barriers, such as car glass and thinner sheet metal, and still remain intact to adequately penetrate the people behind the barriers.
Today's better handgun ammunition is the best we have ever had for serious social interaction.
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12-07-2010, 01:24 AM
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Statistical facts from real world shootings, with a wide variety of calibers, and types of bullets. Penetration is included.-
Handloads.Com - Stopping Power
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12-07-2010, 01:38 AM
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Call me naive or ignorant, but I don't waste my time analyzing gelatin tests or 50 page essays from some dude with 6 PhD's or some other guy who was a SEAL with 500 handgun kills, etc. etc. to tell me what I "need" to use for carry or self defense.
I've seen bad guys take hits from 5.56, 9mm, 7.62 Tokarev,7.62 Nato,7.62x39,7.62x54r, .50 BMG, Hellfire missiles, hand grenades, etc. when I was overseas and that don't mean squat to me or anyone else now for day to day choices for HD or CC. I'm not a soldier anymore, I'm not a cop nor do I play one on TV , I've been into firearms for quite a few years and by now I know what I'm comfortable with and not what someone else tells me is or isn't good enough.
My feeling is a hit with a .38 Special +P 158 gr. FMJ out of a Model 10 or 67 I know better than almost any other gun, and have fired so much that I could roll out of bed and dump all 6 center mass from pure muscle memory........is better than a miss from some tacti-cool 10mm or .357 Sig that someone says I "need" to protect myself but can't afford to shoot as much.
I don't make a lot of money right now, I have guns in many different calibers but affording ammo is a challenge at the moment so I focus on .38 Special and 9mm, and use .22's for plinking. When I have time to train I shoot .38's out of my S&W's and Rugers which is building my skills more than the 1911's I have laying in the safe that I don't have ammo for.
9mm +P+ will penetrate deeper than .45 ACP FMJ but the 9mm hits with less energy. Both will drop someone stone dead and a bad guys internal organs or brain won't know the difference.
Last edited by stantheman86; 12-07-2010 at 01:40 AM.
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12-09-2010, 05:22 AM
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With a .380 you really need a flat point FMJ to get any kind of meaningful penetration.
With any of the other calibers, a Hornady, Federal or any other quality maker will have a round that will do the job both with regard to penetration and any expansion needed.
Currently my agency (federal) uses the Federal FMJ expanding round, it is offered in 9mm, .40 and .45ACP, and it works. And it looks PC inofffensive like it complies with the Hague Accords of 1913.
I have carried the 158gr SWCHP +P in .38 Special for decades, either on or off duty, or in a BUG, and it has done the job any number of times (not all fired by me). Any round can fail but a good torso or CNS, or pelvic hit with that round has always been a stopper.
I don't remember who said it but: "Bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin".
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12-09-2010, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj
Hi:
After reading Revho's post of "Summer Carry/Winter Carry" I started considering caliber penetration in winter clothing?
I was going to consider the small CCWs, but recalled some forum member CCW big calibers.
Which would penetrate deeper: FMJ, SP, or HP?
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Small and fast penetrates better than big and slow. FMJ is the best penetrator of the ones listed. This issue was discussed with the choice of the 9mm for military: it will penetrate the heavy clothing military targets typically wear better than the flying ashtray (.45 )
Some of the typical "defense" loads actually over penetrate in real world because people shoot them out of short barreled guns which lose enough velocity that they don't expand. You get non fatal through and through wound instead of a fatal wound.
Last edited by bountyhunter; 12-09-2010 at 03:05 PM.
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12-09-2010, 06:22 PM
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US Veteran Absent Comrade
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AKAOV1MAN-
I don't remember who said it but: "Bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin
I know that our man in New Mexico, Erich, said that, but he may have been quoting someone. I think he's a prosecutor, and has studied a number of shootings.
The bullet must get deep inside and penetrate vital organs or the brain.
For the record, and not because I am recommending it when something better is at hand, the two men I know who have actually shot some people with it and seen reports from others in the field, used 9mm FMJ. One shot nine men with that round, and all dropped. He wasn't always able to stick around and be sure they died, although one terrorist hit in about the solar plexus did, scrabbling around horribly on the floor of a house in Baghdad. He was dead within a minute, despite a medic trying to help, and was incapacitated for that time.
Guns used by these men were a Beretta M-9, a Browning Hi-Power, and a P-38. The guy with the P-38 was also a police official who saw many "after action" reports in what was then Rhodesia. He told me that 9mm usually worked okay, if the hit was a good one. He was an IPSC champion and liked the Colt .45 auto, but was issued the P-38/P-1 and got free ammo for it, when .45 ammo was in iffy supply, due to UN sanctions.
For the record, my 9mm is loaded with Federal 124 grain HST's.
T-Star
Last edited by Texas Star; 12-09-2010 at 06:27 PM.
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1911, 380, 45acp, beretta, browning, colt, hi-power, hornady, ipsc, military, model 10, sig arms, tokarev |
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