What have your experiences been shooting 45ACP (not auto rim) in a revolver without moonclips? I know some of the more modern revolvers chambered for 45 auto rim have issues with light primer strikes when shooting ACP without clips.

Any other experiences/issues?

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Aaron Terry

I wouldn't and don't see why one would try it.

I suppose you could do it "in a pinch." The only ACP revolver I currently own is a 625 Mountain Gun in 45LC that has been cut to accept ACP in moonclips (love this gun). But you must use the moonclips, as the cases will just slide through without.

I asked this question because I saw a guy the other day at the range shooting ACP and poking the rounds out of the cylinder afterwards with a pencil. I suppose he didn't have moonclips.

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Aaron Terry

It works fine in my 625 MG .45acp. Can easily extract with fingernails or push out with a pencil, no problem either way.

Aaron-

No clips is the only way I shoot my 25-2, and it gets shot quite a bit in cold weather since we have to be in on the indoor range.

I hate moonclips of any kind. I don't care what anyone says about them. I don't use my gun for competition or SD so clips are a waste of time for me.

My gun is correctly chambered, and cases headspaces on the case mouth correctly (something that most made by S&W since 1988 aren't), and it works perfectly without clips. They drop out on their own most of the time, but a quick flip with a fingernail does the ones that don't come out on their own.

S&W decided to make things easy for themselves since most guys will use clips, and used overly generous chamber specs regarding the depth when they came out with the Model of 1988, and haven't seen fit to change them since.

These guns and most all subsequent 625's really require clips (or AR brass) to avoid misfires.

Of course, there are exceptions in the 625 line that come off the line, and have chambers that are very close to being correct, and fire ammo without clips just fine- but they are the exception.

I will add that recently, I have been hearing that S&W seems to be addressing the overly deep chambers in the 625's, so maybe things are turning around with them, and that'd be great.

I'm with stiab. I've had 4 different 1917s, a 1955 Target, and currently have a 22-4. All have handled ACP perfectly well w/o clips, the only downside being the necessity for individual extraction. I usually use the AR brass these days, finding the clips basically a PITA.

Larry

Haven't tried it. Never really occurred to me. Why would I?

They're only about a buck apiece, less in bulk...

...and finding AR brass is easy?

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Brow...g=655***687***

Google and call Ranch Products. They make the moon clips for S&W. I ordered 100 moon clips for my 325TR for $35 shipped, net 30. Yes, they sent them the same day without payment and invoice included. Thirty-five cents each, delivered, on account... No more excuses...

I had to shoot my Brazilian Contract 1917 without moon clips when I first got it. No problems firing it but ejection was difficult by fingernail and slow when I poked the cases out of the cylinder with a pencil.

An order to Ranch Products solved that problem. Bought 100 clips and still have a bunch of them in the original bag, unused.

I used the 1917 in some bowling pin matches and in PPC type shoots. The full moon clips made for the fastest revolver reloads I've ever done. Also used the 1917 as a house gun from time to time. Having a couple of loaded moon clips next to the loaded gun seemed like a good idea.
They are also a good way to have a couple different loads on hand if that's wanted.

Both my 625-3's work just fine without moon clips shooting ACP. I have moon clips, but don't bother with them, as a slight wrap of the butt into the palm of my hand knocks all the brass out easily. Saves wear on the ejector rod too!

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ken
SWCA #1959

Sir, I shot my old 25-2 that way a fair bit. You lose the simultaneous ejection and have to pick fired cases out individually, but they come out easily enough. FWIW, I found this practice to be less hassle than monkeying around with moon clips, at least for range use.

I've heard that more recent Smith .45 ACP revolvers don't do well without clips, but can't comment from experience.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Hooking the rim of a cartridge in the extractor groove will lift them out, if you don't have a pencil.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

If you don't want to fool with steel full moon clips for range use (they require tools to de-moon and re-moon) then get you some RIMZ clips. They are polymer clips and load easily with the fingers. No tools are needed:

Ez Moon Clips

I have and use steel full moon clips, Rimz clips for range use along with .45 Auto Rim cases for heavy loads with heavy bullets. It is NICE to have choices...

Steel full moon clips are a pain in the tuckus but are the most reliable for a SERIOUS speed load. I prefer the Deluxe Moon Clip Tool for re-mooning. While it works ok for de-mooning, I prefer Brownell's tool for de-mooning.

Deluxe Moon Clip Tool

BROWNELLS : MOON CLIP STRIPPER - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

Dale53

Fishslayer:
I meant that I find the use of the clips a PITA: I have a dozen or so ea. of the 1/2 moon and full moon, and a bucket of AR brass. Not a comment on availability.
Sorry to be vague.

Larry

I generally shoot with RIMZ clips. They are literally a snap to load and unload by hand. There are a couple of drawbacks. First, manufacturer's claims notwithstanding, they are fairly fragile. Mine have tended to crack after a few dozen loadings and reloadings. Second, they do deform a bit with use and, as a consequence, do not load as quickly into the gun as do steel clips. On the other hand, they're cheap, convenient, and ideal for range use.

For anything more serious I use steel moonclips. I have a demooning tool from Brownell's, it looks like a screwdriver with a cylindrical head. You slip the head over each spent casing and give a sharp twist to it. The casing usually pops out of the clip quite easily.

I've not tried shooting without clips. I have a friend with a 625-8 (mine's the JM version) and he says that he gets occasional FTFs when he doesn't use clips. His guess is that the problem could be solved by replacing the firing pin with a longer pin. Just a hypothesis, however.

My 625-5 works just fine without moon clips. I only shoot it that way when I forget to bring the moon clips though.

I'll 2nd (or 3rd..) the RIMZ clips for range work. They're super easy to use and have been durable enough given their low cost.

For pin shooting, carry, etc. I use a steel full moon clip.

Never had a single issue at all firing .45ACP w/o moonclips in my 625-2.

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<><

My 625-4 does fine with or without clips.But the other day a friend had a 625 at the range that is one of the newer guns and we tried to drop a 45 acp into the chamber. It chambered too deep for the firing pin to strike,so at some time Smith has apparently changed the chambers.

I fail to see where the use of full moon clips is such a pain for some members. My 25-2 is used in USPSA and there is no faster reload than a steel full moon clip and hardball ammo. I think that they are easy to load and unload.Half moons are a different story however.
Randy

i'm with you randy...moonclips make reloading quick and easy....i have a 625JM from the performance center and it will shoot just fine without moons however...

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

I have a Ruger Blackhawk with a 45 ACP cylinder that I shoot without moonclips but that's a different thing. I've never tried to shoot my 625 without them but now I'm curious if it will work.

I shoot all my .45 ACP revos without moon clips. The more recent ones, the 625JM and 625PC, both have longer firing pins to take care of the longer chamber and/or shorter brass, but mostly I prefer to just use .45 AR brass and forget the entire issue.

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Tom

I was at the range a while back doing a shooting project which involved a number of .45ACP revolvers. I had ammo loaded up in full moon clips, both 230gr ball and some CCI Blazer 200gr JHPs in aluminum cases. I also have .45 Auto-Rim brass and ammo, but did not have any with me at the time.

When I went to shoot my Colt 1917, I was re-surprised to find that it wouldn’t accept the moon clips – the extractor ratchet was too big and the hole in the clip wouldn’t fit over it. I say re-surprised because I had noticed this years ago, but had forgotten about it. I put it aside and shot the other guns without issue.

I was going to go ahead and pack up when I remembered that it’s possible to shoot .45ACP revolvers without a clip, you just can’t use the extractor to eject the empties. I’ve never actually done this before so I thought it’d be a good time to experiment and try it out. I checked the cylinder of the Colt to make sure it had a headspace step – I’ve read that some of the early Colt 1917s did not.

So, I shot the Colt with the ball ammo and it worked fine. Now my curiosity was piqued, because I have also heard that some recent Smith & Wesson revolvers won’t necessarily headspace correctly without clips. I have a recently acquired S&W Model 325 Night Guard so I tried it with the aluminum cased Blazer ammo. No problem. A current production Model 22-4 (modern version of the 1917 with 4” barrel and the lock) – also no problem. The older Brazilian 1937 version of the S&W 1917 worked fine, as did the S&W 1955 Target Model.

All of the revolvers that I tried without using moon clips worked just fine, whether old or new, whether with brass-cased ball ammo or Blazer with aluminum cases. All the cases extracted using just a fingernail, and I was often able to pull out two at once using my middle finger and ring ringer at the same time. Once in a while one was a little sticky, but by and large they just slipped right out.

I had always thought that shooting a .45ACP without clips was something that you did only out of desperation, and that getting the empties out would be a big hassle. Seems I was wrong.

Well ain't that somethin'. Learn something new everyday. I may just try that next range trip. What'll probly happen is that my M1950 will go bang every single time and the cases will fall out slick as you please.

...seein' as how I'm almost finished with my "project" of loading up an ammo can with exactly 576 rds of moon clipped target loads...

I shot my 625-4 with GI hardball without moon clips and found most cases would fall out of the cylinder when lightly shaken; those that didn't could be pulled out by fingernail.

All three of my 625-4s will fire without moonclips. They will also fire .45 GAP without moonclips as long as the revolver is not held straight up or pointed straight down. Actually, firing individual loose rounds of .45 ACP can be problematic with a gun that has lightened springs when the gun is held straight up, as I discovered when squirrel hunting. All my revolvers are now sprung to fire all commercial primers and I no longer have to worry about these problems.

Most if not all of these issues occur with the new "improved" frame mounted firing pin. It is likely due to a combination of California compliant firing pins and sloppy chamber dimensions. Model of 1988 designation has nothing to do with it.

I believe the ability to fire without moonclips is extremely important and I'm surprised at how many of you blow this off as some mere triviality. My 625s are the handguns I rely on most and if I find myself in a bad spot, the 625 is what I will have on me. If I lose or don't have time to retrieve more moonclips, I know that my revolver will fire without them. That S&W would shortcut and compromise one of the greatest and most useful revolvers they ever made is a great insult.

Dave Sinko

David, If the first part of this statement was directed towards my earlier statement, I'll stand by it. I have quite a few articles by writers and well known gunshop owners like JD Jones regarding this issue. His article details a rather lengthy go round with S&W over that very issue with the Model of 1988 he received when they first came out back then. John Taffin also covers it in an article he wrote, and there's another good one recently by Brian Pearce in an issue of Handloader that covers basically the same issue and problem with Smith and Wesson refusing to ackowledge it. He even urged readers to call S&W when they encountered the issue with their personal guns.

The rest of this statement though, I highly agree with.

I have no use for moon clips for just shooting at the range. There is no need to go to all the hassle of loading and unloading moon clips just to shoot at the range. My 1950 .45 works just fine without moon clips. Now, that does not apply to to competition or self defense, where moon clips are great for ejecting and reloading rapidly, either .357 or .45. I have had issues with .357 with some ammo and have bent a couple of clips learning that some ammunition will just not work witht he moond clips I have, most notably some Winchester Silver Tip I bought specifically to use for self defense with moon clips. :-(

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Well, if Jones, Taffin and Pearce are writing about this problem, I have never seen any of their articles. Are there any links to these? I know some shooters have complained about the 625-2 variation, but I didn't think it was for this reason. I'd really like to see what these writers have to say; they always had credibility and were not just salesmen.

Dave Sinko

In the August 2008 issue of Handloader (# 254), Pearce wrote an excellent article on loading for the .45 AR. There is a god sized side bar all about the 625's FTF problems without moonclips.

In an issue of American Handgunner form 1988 or '89 Jones describes (in his monthly column) his displeasure at his gun ( amodel of 1988) not functioning correctly, and how he went round and round with S&W over it. I can't find it right now, but I'll look. I have over a thousand gun mags and digests etc going back to the late '40's, so it'll take quite a while since they aren't organized.

The Taffin article I had my wife download at her office from an online site (can't recall if it was his or just one of the ones he is a member of) and if you want to send me your mailing addy, I'll send you a copy. His chief complaint was with Blazer ammo not functioning without clips, but also his accuracy sucked until he used clips for all loads.

Yeah the moonclips are a pain, thats why I shoot a lot of AR's out of mine. I'll have to take a peek at the chambers in my 1989, JM and 22-4 to see if they are chambered or not, never really noticed, might be nice to know in a pinch.

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Stay safe people!

Re: Finding AR. I merely shot 45 acp with clips until I found that Midway USA had 45 AR in stock. Bought 200 or so. Keep my loads fairly light and now use them in both my 1917s (S & W and Colt).

I bought an extra set of 45 acp dies to use for the 45 AR.

I have a Model 625-6 and a Model 1950 so I thought I would compare measurements with loaded .45 ACP with and without moon clips. The 1950 serial S1241xx measured 1.606 from the case head to the forward end of the cylinjder when headspacing singly in the cylinder. With moon clip it measured 1.621. The 625-6 measured 1.610 and 1.622. Boith about .015 difference. I did measured all chambers and noticed a greater difference between chambers with the 625 as much as .005. All the rounds I have fired from them have been without moonclips with no misfires. I have read several different commentaries on the new guns working only with moon clips. One sample does not mean much out of the thousands made, so I do not know if it means anything or not. The numbers are really not too far apart for guns made 40 years apart.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102