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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 12-24-2010, 02:02 PM
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It happened again----> see new post below



I have had this Scandium 340 as my EDC for the last five or so years now.


Each time at the range I fire the 5 in the cylinder and then 5 out of a Tough Strip.

Today at the range -

Bang!

Bang!

Bang!

Crunch!.....hmmmm. I had to fight to get the cylinder open and found the last 2 rounds had jumped crimp and bound up the action....



The 'normal' OAL out of the box measured at 1.572" . The jumped rounds measured 1.675" and 1.6955" . I have been doing this rotation method since I decided on using these particular rounds in 2005. They are Remington Golden Saber 125 grain 357 magnum. I checked them for jump when I was deciding on carry ammo and found none....maybe this is an anomaly?

Anyone else had their ammo change over time? I will be calling/emailing Remington after the holidays to see whats up...until then, it is back to the Federal Hydra-Shok rounds that hurts so much to shoot.

This would have been a very bad thing if I needed those last 2 rounds during a serious social encounter

Update 1-12-2011 - I had called Remington and today got a response - They asked for the lot # on the inside of the box, he told me that the lot was from 2004! My dealer must have had these on his shelf for some time before I got them....they are sending a replacement box of shells and are supplying a return label for me to ship the questionable box back. I guess that when the replacements arrive, I will have to hit the range and see if they hold up. Will provide range report at that time.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:14 PM
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Yup.... I've had ammo change over time. My issue happened with deer slugs and a change in powder. Groups got bigger and the POI shifted. What used to be good ammo in my deer gun gave it heartburn. Looks like you should start looking for duty ammo with a heavy crimp and deep cannulered bullet.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:23 PM
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Interestingly I had this happen with Remmington 130 gr. lead RN in my vintage Colt Cobra in Nov. Out of a box of 50 this was the only time it happened.
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Old 12-24-2010, 02:26 PM
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Maybe it's the picture, but the one in the middle,
doesn't look like it has the greatest crimp in the world.
I have read other posts telling of bullet pull with GS
on this very Forum. I have a 340 PD and it's loaded
with Buffalo Bore 125 grain +P's.
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:26 PM
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What caused it? I've seen a round that is chambered and removed over and over in an auto, the bullet gets pushed back into the case, but in this case was it just from recoil from the other rounds you fired?
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARMinSC View Post
What caused it? I've seen a round that is chambered and removed over and over in an auto, the bullet gets pushed back into the case, but in this case was it just from recoil from the other rounds you fired?
Yes, I believe that the recoil force in the ultra-light scandium/titanium frame guns does cause bullet pull.

I have been using this same ammo for five years now with no problems....maybe I have a bad lot?
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Old 12-24-2010, 03:46 PM
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Your a tough bird to be shooting 357s out of that revolver!

Like already posted, the ammo is defective, it's missing a crimp.
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  #8  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 500 Magnum Nut View Post
Your a tough bird to be shooting 357s out of that revolver!
C'mon now....I shoot full house 41 mags out of a 3" gun all the time, plus I shoot the same fiery stuff out of my 58's with PC Magnas and a pair of Executioner's Stagg with, get this...., EXTRA BARK! now you know that I'm completely nutz

The 340 is a hand full with 357's, but I only shoot about 10 in a single sitting.....and I am just about certain that I will not even notice in the event that the SHTF.
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coach22 View Post
Maybe it's the picture, but the one in the middle,
doesn't look like it has the greatest crimp in the world.
I have read other posts telling of bullet pull with GS
on this very Forum. I have a 340 PD and it's loaded
with Buffalo Bore 125 grain +P's.
I have not reloaded a lot, however I tend to agree. It does not appear that the brass is at all crimped into the bullet, certainly at least not like I would normally do myself. Secondly, had it been crimped to suit me you would have at least seen some type of abrasion as the bullet was being forced back out by the recoil. Could be bad photo, but I do not see it.

Should also be a very obvious line as to where it was crimped into the bullet.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:12 PM
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It's best to use cartridges having bullets with cannelures. I've had the same experience with factory Remington 125gr Golden Saber rounds shot from my M&P 340.
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:28 PM
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Great, I just bought some of this ammo for my 2 1/2" 66 and 327 UDR.

Anyone have problems with this stuff in heavier guns?
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dump1567 View Post
Great, I just bought some of this ammo for my 2 1/2" 66 and 327 UDR.

Anyone have problems with this stuff in heavier guns?
I have used them in my 66, 28, 27, and 640 with no problems.....but them again, I had no problems in the 340 until today....go figure...
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARMinSC View Post
What caused it? I've seen a round that is chambered and removed over and over in an auto, the bullet gets pushed back into the case, but in this case was it just from recoil from the other rounds you fired?
The gun recoils backward from the shot, pulling the cases with it by the rims. However the bullet will stay in place (i.e. pull out of the case) unless crimp and neck tension are sufficient to keep it in. In this case neither held the bullets well enough.

Last edited by Dragon88; 12-24-2010 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:09 PM
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i have had a 340pd for about 9 years. a guy i used to know had one too, back in the day. he tried pretty much everything in his (even 120s, and lighter). the light bullets pulled very often, even several of the 125s. i just tried to learn from his grief, and all i have ever used is 158s (usually fed h-s), and i have never had one do it. the 158s have a lot more surface area in contact with the case, and the feds are evidently crimped pretty good.

the other thing i have heard of is that the lighter bullets leave "the gap" faster, and a lot of powder/gas escapes before the pressure subsides, contributing to forcing cone erosion.

i will just stick with 158s!
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAFireman View Post
I have used them in my 66, 28, 27, and 640 with no problems.....but them again, I had no problems in the 340 until today....go figure...
My guess would be a bad lot. Or maybe compare them to other unfired rounds? I have a hard time believing that anyone would sell a magnum defense round that wasn't crimped, and those look like they have none at all.

Even my plated target SWC have a cannellure...
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:12 PM
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I figure ammo quality can vary a bit from batch to batch especially since the infamous and disgraceful results of the 2008 elections caused a run on the sales of guns and ammo. I now test the first five from a box by measuring cartridge #5 before and after firing the first four through the cylinder of my little S&W 340Sc revolver. If #5 doesn't grow by more than a few thousands of an inch I figure it is good to go.

The loads that I tried successfully in my limited testing recently are: the Speer (Load # 23921) 135gr Short Barrel Gold Dot .357 mag, the Winchester (Load # X357SHP) .357 mag Silver Tip 145 gr., and the Federal (Load # P357XB1) Barnes Expander 140 gr.

The excellent Wichester Silvertips 145 gr .357 magnums are hot to shoot though the lightweight revolver but unfortunately very hard to find for sale right now, so they may not be available. The Speer GD Short Barrel 135 gr .357 mags are almost pleasant to shoot and are a good SD choice for the lightweight revolver. The Federal 140 gr Barnes Expander .357 seemed very accurate. The Barnes Expander is supposed to be one of the best new bullets available in .357 mag. I understand that Corbon has the Barnes bullets available in 125 gr weight in .357 magnum but I have not tried any of those yet.

I found that the Hornady 140 gr .357 that I tried had noticable bullet pull as did some 158gr loads. Maybe different batches of the same ammo would be fine in the light scandium frame 340 sc revolver

I suggest that you try loads first through your revolver before trusting for carry
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:21 PM
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Eliakim wrote:

"I now test the first five from a box by measuring cartridge #5 before and after firing the first four through the cylinder of my little S&W 340Sc revolver. If #5 doesn't grow by more than a few thousands of an inch I figure it is good to go."

This should be SOP for any ammo that is intended for self defense of any kind (2 or 4 legged).

I had some Remington factory 158gr JHP +P ammo that neck tension was so poor, you could turn the bullets in the case with your fingers -- they would pull badly in the 340PD. This was 7 years ago. FWIW, they chronoed 750 fps from the 1 7/8" 340.

I have loaded/shot 185gr (yes 185 not 158) LFNGCs over a max charge of Lil'Gun (Hodgdon Load for 180gr Win Partition) in the same 340 and have had no bullet movement at all. These chronoed 1,020 fps from the 1 7/8" 340.

One box of Magtech .357 mag 158gr JSP factory ammo had little or no crimp and crimp jump was common -- these were shot in my 3 1/4" 386 PD. In this case, I just reseated the bullets and applied a heavy roll down crimp -- no more problems.

Here's a picture of the Magtech ammo after shooting several rounds first.



Paul

Last edited by Paul105; 12-24-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:30 PM
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Is this the appropriate place to inject "Six for sure" ?


Just couldn't resist ...

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Old 12-24-2010, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub-moa View Post
Is this the appropriate place to inject "Six for sure" ?


Just couldn't resist ...

Well, the little S&W 340Sc tends to be "ammo sensitive". But you'd be sensitive too if you weighed less than 12 ounces and belched big flames & lead.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:58 PM
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This is why I use a 581 for CC
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:15 PM
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That's a pretty lousy crimp for factory ammo. I haven't shot factory ammo in my .357's for years, and I see now reason to start now from the QC I see.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrooper View Post
It's best to use cartridges having bullets with cannelures. I've had the same experience with factory Remington 125gr Golden Saber rounds shot from my M&P 340.
I can second that motion....I had Remington GoldenSaber 125-gr jump crimp on more than one box. I tried a number of boxes and it was the same. I just do not use them in my 340PD or M&P340. I use the Speer 135-gr for short-barrels and have not had a crimp-jump yet. Good luck and find yerself a good round and stick with it. Shoot safe....
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Old 12-26-2010, 11:50 AM
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Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but what is meant by a bullet with a "cannelure?"
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Old 12-26-2010, 11:58 AM
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a groove around the bullet for the crimped case to "crimp" into.
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but what is meant by a bullet with a "cannelure?"
Check the bullets in the photo in Post #17 of this thread. That grooved ring encircling the bullets is a cannelure. If crimped properly, a bullet with a cannelure will hold more securely than a bullet without one.
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Old 12-26-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
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Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but what is meant by a bullet with a "cannelure?"
If you take a look at Paul105's picture, you can see the cannelure above where the bullets jumped the crimp. If the round is crimped properly (unlike in the picture), the case is rolled tightly into the cannelure.

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Old 12-26-2010, 06:08 PM
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The first time that happened to me was with a Charter arms Bulldog and factory ammo, when the Bulldog first came out. At that time, RNL was about all you could get, so I took up reloading for the Special. Already had dies for .44 Mag, but I had to buy a .44 Spl crimp die. I used it.

I'm surprised that the instructions that came with your gun didn't warn about this. I'm sure my 325PD instructions warned about testing for this, and probably 342PD, as well. Neither of those guns is as bad as .357 Mag in an AirLite.
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
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I'm surprised that the instructions that came with your gun didn't warn about this. I'm sure my 325PD instructions warned about testing for this, and probably 342PD, as well. Neither of those guns is as bad as .357 Mag in an AirLite.
I did test several types of rounds before I decided on the Golden Sabers to carry. I have been through several boxes during my rotations and these were the only 2 that have jumped like this...I don't believe that this line of bullets has a groove (I can't say that I have seen one out of the case either...).

I will be trying some new loads and the GS can go back into the 28's and 65's.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:06 PM
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Remington called today and they are sending me a new box and wish for me to return the 'problem' box to them. See 1st post for details...
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:17 PM
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I've been reloading pistol ammo for 40 years and have conservatively loaded 45,000 rounds without one single failure like this, or anything else for that matter.

In the past 10 years I've purchased ammo products (components or loaded cartidges) from Remington and had at least a 75% failure rate. By that I mean that 75% of the boxes of whatever I bought had at least one defective round in each box.

In contrast, I have not had one single problem with Winchester, Federal, Starline, etc.

My failure rate with milsurp Turkish ammo made in 1938 has been better!

Remington QC is the pitts. At first I accepted replacements, then required they refund my money, now I would't use anything with Remiongton on the box if it was given to me for free!!!
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:44 PM
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I don't know about other Golden Saber bullets, but the .357 GS bullets don't have a cannelure. That's the problem, period.

Remington Golden Saber ammo is top-shelf in my book and I keep my K-frame .357 Magnum revolvers loaded with it and my choice of carry ammo in my SIG P229 in .40 S&W is 165gr Golden Sabers.

I carry Remington .357 Magnum 110gr SJHP ammo in my 13.3 oz M&P 340. It's accurate, with manageable recoil, and zero bullet jump.
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by XTrooper View Post

I carry Remington .357 Magnum 110gr SJHP ammo in my 13.3 oz M&P 340. It's accurate, with manageable recoil, and zero bullet jump.
I would just about swear that mine is marked no less than 120 grain bullets....that was to prevent cylinder face erosion I presume?
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:04 PM
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I would just about swear that mine is marked no less than 120 grain bullets....that was to prevent cylinder face erosion I presume?
Only the titanium cylinder models are so marked. The steel cylinder models like my M&P 340 have no such prohibition.

Yes. It's to prevent erosion of the titanium cylinder.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:05 PM
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My normal BUG is a M&P340 and I usually carry .357 GS rounds. So far, after several boxes, I've deliberately looked for crimp jump, but never found any (shoot four and check the fifth round - some very old Win 125gr +P 38's I have routinely jump the crimp after only 2 rounds fired - go figure). I notice that the rounds pictured by SAFIREMAN (nice photos, by the way) have the older style 'straight serrations' on the bullets where the current .357 GS's have deeper and more angled serrations. I'm not saying that the bullet serrations have anything to do with the bullets pulling away, but I'm wondering if anyhone has noticed this happening with the newer rounds? I will continue to check my rounds as I cycle them through and report any crimp jump that I find. Maybe I've just been lucky so far, but I HOPE that this isn't the case. . .
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:23 AM
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I was so concerned that I stopped carrying my M&P 360, started carrying my 442 daily and subsequently sold the 360. The last place I want to find a problem is in a SD situation.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:15 PM
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Only the titanium cylinder models are so marked. The steel cylinder models like my M&P 340 have no such prohibition.

Yes. It's to prevent erosion of the titanium cylinder.
Thanks,

I keep forgetting that there are a few of the 'airlite' guns that have stainless cylinders.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:32 PM
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Thanks,

I keep forgetting that there are a few of the 'airlite' guns that have stainless cylinders.
It's understandable. There are so many models and sub-models today that you literally need a catalog in front of you to keep track of them all. It's much more complicated today than when I started shooting Smith revolvers in the '60s.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:00 PM
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Default I can't believe that it happened again!!

Well since the original thread I have been through a lot of the GS rounds without incident. I run 10 a month through whether I need it or not.

This morning I was finishing up a range session with 10 from my EDC and almost the same thing happened again.

Bang!

Bang!

Bang!

Bang!

Crunch.....

This time only the last round jumped enough to tie up the gun, but I am now having to re-think my ammo choices for carry use. I have had Golden Sabre rounds since the range master at the academy recommended them. I have had them in everything from 357 sig, all the way up to 45 ACP and lots of stuff in between.....I have all of my 357 mags stoked with the GS loads, but now I am thinking that I need to re-evaluate that. I pretty much stick with the same loading for each caliber/gun, so as not to have to think too much in the event of a crisis......

I will be calling Remington in the morning and see what they say this time. I have several more unopened boxes of GS that I just won't feel comfortable with.....ironically, I am swapping over to my model 38 stoked with 38+P GS for EDC until I can come to some resolution with the crimp jumping issues.

Just a friendly heads-up to my forum brethren who carry the air-weight guns....shoot your gun with what you carry and make sure that it works right for you! Shoot it enough so that issues like this won't catch you off guard. I will be running two hundred carry rounds through before the next time I select a round for serious social work.


Maybe I should ditch the 340sc and just carry my 657 3" snubbie?
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:11 PM
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You all know how a kinetic bullet puller works...why would his revolver be different?
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:26 PM
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Do you note there is no crimp groove on those bullets that jumped. It is difficult if not impossible to get a good enough crimp on a smooth bullet to keep the bullet from moving. Target loads have taper crimps, but hot loads need a crimp groove to keep the bullet from moving. The minimal weight of your handgun is a big contributing factor, but if you want to continue to use it, obtain loads loaded with properly crimped bullets that have a crimp groove.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:50 PM
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This kind of change from lot to lot is one of the reasons that folks like Dr. Robert suggest buying ammo in 1000 round cases. That's my general preference.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:52 PM
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I'd run the 38+P GS in the 340 until I found some more reliable 357s. The power advantage with the 357 over the 38+P is less with a short barrel (1 7/8") than it is in the longer barrels. I'd also drop the Remingtons as there are some better options out there now that are specifically made for short barrel guns.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:26 PM
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I wrote early-on that I switched from GS to Speer GoldDot HP for short-barrel. Have not had a hiccup since. But, that is just my two-cents....

I carry them in either my M&P340 or my 340PD.
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