Who among you have experienced a MIM part failure in a S&W revolver?

What part failed?

How did it fail?


Thanks.

MIM parts have gotten a bad rep in my opinion. people always seems to complain about them, but can't link to an actual failure. i'll be watching this thread to see if any pop up.

I remember seeing a broken hammer on a 637. Thats about it.

Could we have a little more detail please. THanks

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Jack C

I remember seeing a picture of it. Forget where?... but if I recall the hammer near the spur split in half...

I saw a used M-64 with a cracked MIM hammer, in a gun store. I think it was a M-64. Some late K-frame .38 or .357.

They had two, and one had this flaw. I think they were former cop guns. The damaged one had probably been dropped.

Ive actually seen breakage on forged parts as well.

Why are you asking this? Everything will brake and this subject isn't a very good one for a new member to bring up! MIM and forged parts will break. The only good part about the MIM parts is that it is just as hard in the center as it is on the outside, where the forge parts are surface hard only .006-.008 thick. The frame mount firing pin is a upgrade in my thinking, but there is nothing like a old Smith to look at. We are talking about two different guns. Its like watching Halley Berry and some gal that is a track star, two different worlds and I like them both .

well said... it seems to be a no win topic. It would be a great story for one of those tv programs, like Urban Legends.. True or False... they could research the IL's too and while they are at it... research old guns and any possible problems they may have had.. According to some people, the "old S&W" never had a problem...

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Jack C

I agree - its not like you can ask S&W to build you a 'special' item w/o MIM parts. In all likelyhood - they are here to stay.

Bullseye,

Are you sure you do not have this backwards?

My understanding was that MIM was only surfaced hardened after being sintered while a forged part is made out of bar stock which is consistent all the way through.

I am by no means a metallurgist or an engineer.

Thinking of starting a thread, "How many "old" Smiths have you ever seen fail?". Not trying to be a "smartie" either (well, maybe ). Point is I was a true range rat in my former LEO days and a Range Officer for our Dept (we had our own range) and many sport type shooters have no clue how often ANY machine will fail. I'm talking watching over 150 officers fire close to a million rounds per year.

The oldies failed too folks. And more often than you'd think. Dropped guns, broken firing pins, bent yokes, malfunctioning ejector stars (get a round caught under one and you'll truly understand that ANY machine can and will fail), and the accumlated gunk and goo that gets into the internals on a lazy coppers pistola.

Just saying is all but I too will be watching this thread to see if the massive amounts of negative MIM lore can be backed up with anything more than an occasional antecdotal story, or two.

Right on again magger... it's pretty funny now, I'm beginning to chuckle inside more and more when I see the same few guys takin wacks at anything newer out here... I just came from one of my local GD's, picking up a rifle I bought off GBer.. sure enough, I look in the case... model 19-3 I think was the prefix, nickle plated, stubby nose on it, 357mag... I just shot my 640 last night for the first time, shot 50rds of 357mag.. what a blast... I had to put the 19 in the closet.. I had Mike put it in the back for me.. it's a pre lock, I imagine forged hammer, so a few guys should be happy to hear that here..

Here's a few IL's I bought this year since the 1st.. hope they work ok, I figure I'll ccw the Bone Collector, carry the SW500-4" for back-up and use the 640 from my ankle in case the other 2 MIM hammers break.. or are they MIM?
Sorry for the poor pics, shot it from my cell phone before heading to work this morning.

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Jack C

The forged are case harden, the mim is heated in the mold, it get treated all the way inside and out. the forged is the one you can't stone but a very little. Look at my thread "match Gun" the hammer in that gun is MIM and just as shinny as the rest of the gun. It was a pain to cut.

Don't get me wrong Brother, I too lust after Mod 27's in 3.5", or a pristine Triple Lock, or...whatever. (if you do a search here in other forum's you'll see pics from me of 1926 Wolf & Klar's, prewar K's, etc. that have gone thru my mitts over the years). But there seems to be some type of stasis that sets in on gunfolk in particular that "the way it was" is somehow mystical.

As a matter of art perhaps that's true. The machining and handfitting that went into, particularly the pre wars is imo stunning. But to think that they are better functioning, or more accurate, is not...uh...accurate.

Not on the planet I inhabit anyway. YPMV. The "oldies" had their warts and scabs too.

Flame suit on, mask down, let em rip.

Don't think you need the flame suit... it's hard to beat the truth..

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Jack C

Considering that M.I.M. parts have been with us now for what,16 years?
If there had been a quantity of failures, we would have seen them
here on the forum and other places.
Believe me, the cats that watch for this kind of thing would have been
all over it.
The bottom line is; there just have not been enough m.i.m. parts
failures to note.
Only one where the part from the factory was defective that
I can recall. And that was a trigger rebound slide.

M.i.m. parts are just no better/ no worse than forged, they just are.

The lock is a whole nother story. Especially with that goofy arrow
acid etched into the FRAME above the hole to tell you which
way to turn it.
My gosh, if we ever bent to the left in our lifetimes, this is the
greatest example.

No rant. Just my very own opinion.

Good luck
Allen Frame

Edited to add;

A lot of m.i.m. parts here on my favorite model 625s'.
If I had AnY doubt whatsoever about their ability to perform their
function, they would have been sent back to S&W P.C. for forged
parts replacement.

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NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

Let me say thank you for all the replies first......Thank you.

Now let me clarify:

I'm no MIM hater myself and I've never personally seen a MIM part failure in a S&W or any other firearm. The reason I ask is because I have heard and do still hear some S&W purists claim they will not buy any new S&W's because of the MIM parts. Therefore I wondered if S&W had real issues with their MIM parts.

I personally think S&W still makes the best revolver available and have two newer models myself that even have the lock.

This thread was in no way an attack on S&W nor a bashing of MIM, it was simply out of curiosity. I should have worded my OP better and for that I apologize.

No need for apology imo, welcome to the crew !!!!!!!!

It's just that you've inadvertantly touched a nerve in those of us with the unmitigated GALL to purchase a newer Smith product. How dare we? You'll note the 6 billion paged sticky at the top of this section about the lock, the hole, the worst thing to happen on the planet since the Dems turned leftward, etc. It's all in fun (maybe not for some, to judge by some of the emotion in some of those posts ) hopefully.

Do we like it? Don't know of a person who says they do, at best it becomes a non issue that doesn't get in the way of some mighty fine shooting irons (shooting titaniums just doesn't "zing" does it?). Bet you that most regular posters in this section own and enjoy BOTH pre and post lock S&W's. As for me, sorry, the PC is turning out some MIGHTY fine revolvers these days an with the inclusion of "the Plug" and my poor eyesight, I can't see the hole anymore and hence don't fret about it. And Allen Frame is right though, that arrow is pretty goofy, I'll admit. Kind of like directions on shampoo.

Again, Welcome to The Crew.

(don't let it happen again)

I shoot my MIM guns more than any of my forged revolvers.......haven't had a failure yet. My 617 has thousands of .22's through it,I shoot that revolver until the barrel is too hot to touch, and I don't baby it...... nothing has failed.

Unfortunately, I have met a few people that couldn't pour pi$$ out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel.

Buck

With respect, looking at the picture of your revolvers... beginning at 6 0'clock, what are the two revolvers immediately to the right of just below the revolver w/ the dark grips at 3 O'clock? Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

Wow Allen!! That's a beautiful picture... and Gasman.. it's all kewl.. Like I said.. I'm getting better at this stuff the longer I'm around here.

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Jack C

Kimber gave MIM parts a bad name due to buying from contractors that didn't know what they doing. Chances are that the vehicle you drive has MIM connecting rods. They take more abuse in one hour than a weapon does in a lifetime.

I disagree with you on this point, .357magger.

As Bullseye Smith points out, MIM technology was a step forward in the manufacturing process.

With the internal lock, however, Smith & Wesson, designed a failure point into their product.

The MIM parts don't bother me. However, a mechanical lock by its very nature consists of very precise load bearing surfaces. Precise, load bearing surfaces don't do well in an environment of extreme stress, like a firearm.

Gasman and others,

If you want to see how a revolver with MIM parts and IL's operate, check out the shooters at the IRC this June in San Louis Obispo, CA. The proof is in the pudding, how well, and accurately these guns perform with the "new fangled" features that so many seem to have a problem with. The new guns are amazing to shoot and compete with.

thank god, I love hearing about new S&W revolvers working fine. when I first joined I read a flood of post about how horrible any new smith is and I just didnt feel like looking at this site anymore. Now that I came back for the reloading section, it seem some new voices are injecting some reason to this "debate".

ps; I sold my old smiths and only own new mim,scandiam and locked models and couldent be happier.

I bought a new no lock 642 on 1 Aug 08. After the first weekend of dry firing / getting used to the trigger,and 40 rounds live fire, the inconsistent, hard trigger pull and the metal filings / dust coming out of the trigger's slot in the frame told me something was up. Off to S&W it went, on their dime fortunately. Came back with an invoice that said "Replaced sear."
So yeah, I've had a MIM failure.
I've bought MIM S&W revolvers since then too, so I realize MIM is reality and not inherently evil or anything. But it ain't perfect.

Noo, not really. You had a sear failure.

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Jack C

Yeah, I suppose I could look at it that way. There just wasn't an appropriate thread to gripe about sear failures.

This is very true, MIM parts done right have a good record for working well. Also the good thing about MIM parts failure is that they tend to fail early in their life cycle.

I don't have any problem with MIM parts as I see them as an improvement in a gun. I don't like the IL because to me it wasn't needed and S&W caved in to the Government.

That said the beauty of buying S&W revolvers is that you have a choice of which ones you buy so in a way everyone can get what they want.

I am very old (89) and I prefer the pre 1986 Smiths for no other reason than they are much more collectable .

Wow, an actual Rip Van Winkle thread.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Yeah and I didn’t catch it til the one post said mim parts are 16 years old. That was 9 years ago.

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-Matt

MIM parts are showing up in firearms for one reason only, cost. MIM parts can be molded to near final dimension in complex shapes in high volume once the molds are made. MIM parts have no metallurgical advantages, and the high pressure required for powder-binder molding limits MIM to comparatively small parts. Unless the MIM presses get much larger, we will not see MIM receivers. We will likely never see MIM cylinders, slides or barrels because MIM parts cannot achieve the fracture toughness properties of forgings. We might see MIM carrier bodies for cylinder or barrel liners. MIM parts can be hard, but hardness alone isn't enough. MIM parts' low fracture toughness, ductility and tensile strength preclude elegant and artistic hammer contours that introduce stress risers, the reason I believe that S&W MIM hammers and triggers have a rounded clubby shape as opposed to old school hammers.

I read quite a bit about Kimber since I own 7 of their 1911’s. The question has been asked several times on the Kimber forum and I can only remember two instances of a MIM part failing.

I know first hand forged parts can fail too. I took my 625-2 out to shoot with very mild hand loads. First shot was fine but in the second shot something hit me in the chest. I had only loaded two rounds and when I went to open the cylinder the thumb latch was gone. The threaded stud on the bolt that the thumb latch attaches to broke off perfectly clean. It was if it was a seperate part stuck on with glue and had snapped off. It was a perfectly clean break. I looked around and located the thumb latch and nut. I contacted Smith and sent it in for a free repair. I believe in my early 625-2 that is a forged part.

....when they first started with them because the manufacturing procedure wasn't pinned down. It didn't take long to correct and out of things to worry about, MIM parts are very low on the scale. I was more upset that S&W seemed to lose the ability to put a barrel on straight for a while there, or even worse, to drill a hole in the frame that could accept a straight barrel.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Never had a parts failure in any S&W I have owned. Of course, now that I have said that......

I've never experienced failure of any MIM part. But have had to replace a few cast and forged parts over the years ( talking handguns here). If anyone is worried about the structural integrity of MIM parts in general, you need to avoid flying, driving, riding in mass transit, using appliances, computers, lawn care and snow removal equipment, fishing, boating, shooting, camping, RVing, etc., etc. BTW, "metal injected moulding" has been in use since the mid 1980s'.

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John

Mim parts are a non issue to me. Plenty of them in your AR-15