Could this be a case of the dreaded lockup?

Having read so much about cases of IL failure (lockup), I considered that this phenomenon was a rare one and limited (mostly) to hard-recoiling revolvers.

Today, at the range with my new(ish) Model 21-4 firing midrange (~850 f/s) 44 Special 200 grain loads the gun locked up not once, but twice.

When it locked, I could move neither the hammer or trigger. The cylinder would open normally. The flag thingy just peeked out alongside the hammer.

After the second ocurrance, I cleared the weapon and closed the cylinder. Noticed the hammer drop a tiny fraction of an inch the instant it latched, and the lockup cleared.

Been firing Smiths for 40 years and have a passel of them. This is the only IL one and, I do believe, it will be the last.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Disable the lock. It's a ten minute job.

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Steve
NJ State Trooper (rtd)

That sure sounds like a lockup to me. I took care of my 642 yesterday.

Once you remove the lock, you can get a plug to fill in the hole it leaves behind. Do a search on these boards for "FS the Plug", read through the thread, and order the correct plug from John. He shipped mine in a couple of days. And be sure to watch the youtube video demonstrating the procedure.

Hey.... I just "plugged" John's "plug" !

I am not endorsing or slamming the lock, but I have to ask.

If I read your post correctly, you never touched the lock and your revolver jammed. You continued to not touch the lock and the revolver un-jammed.

I am not sure that I would call that a lock failure.

You state this is a fairly new revolver. You also witnessed the hammer go forward as the extractor rod and center pin locked the cylinder closed.

Did the trigger fully return to it's proper position or was it slightly rearward? I would have a gunsmith pull the side plate and examine the lock work.

As far as I could tell, the trigger was in its proper position. Last year, I had the bolt on my M60 break. This locked the gun up totally, and the cylinder (naturally) could not be unlocked. At first, I thought this was what happened here. Obviously not the case here.

thanks,

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Before you get up on the soap box and preach, did you open up the gun and look at it and clean it. could have something on the inside that done it or the center pin is a hair short and the bolt did lock it up from recoil. There is alot to happen here than just the lock, did you have to take a key and un-lock it, or the spring on the flag broke. If that is what happen you can turn the gun up side down and the flag will drop down. If you can't figure it out call and send it back and see what the factory says about it. I'm Not beating up on you, please understand that, just have a hard time writing what I'm thinking sometimes.

I've only read about a couple of credible lock failures. The rest were clearly problems unrelated to the lock, reported by guys who simply don't know how a S&W revolver works. My guess is that IL failures are less common than cylinder stop problems, maybe happening with about the frequency of broken hammers. In other words very rare, and hardly something to worry about. No telling what's causing your problem, but it probably isn't the IL.

I'll take the gun off your hands. What you experienced was probably an IL failure, not a high primer or debris under the extractor or bulged case or half stroke or other problem. Your gun will enjoy the company of my IL competition guns that get out weekly and enjoy the CA sunshine.

I didn't realize the problems that you mentioned could cause the flag to pop out, as the OP experienced.

Well, sounds exactly like what happened to my 66 a few weeks ago. Of course, my 66, being made back in about '72, has no lock and it turned out to be an issue with the rebound spring. My point is that there are just too many things that could go wrong with a revolver to justify concluding that it's a lock problem based entirely on the symptoms you describe. I'd have the gun checked out by a competent gunsmith.

Can you disable the IL without the plug? What is involved??

FWIW I bought a 638 w/the IL new about 6 months ago. I've put the hottest +P - Buffalo Bore - through it repeatedly (several hundred) and never had a problem.

While I don't care for the IL (took advantage of an excellent price & the $50 rebate) I would not hestitate to carry this one for personal protection.

If S&W had a problem early on I'm guessing they solved it.

When my 60-14 locked up I could not open the cylinder and had to use the key to get the hammer and trigger to reset...

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"Shall not be infringed"

I suppose I got lucky like 'old cop'... TRR8 built in 2009 per the paperwork... 1000 rounds in, not an issue... not even the slightest budge of the lock. I have never had it 'locked' but I don't plan on touching it. Although I'd like to 'plug' it at somepoint, I just assume not touch the thing.. not really get the point.

From reading a number of threads on this subject it boils down to this for me.

The lock will probably never fail. But:

1. It looks ugly
2. It's unnecessary
3. There are plenty of nice used revolvers out there without it
4. And, it just MIGHT fail once in a blue moon

So, why mess with it at all, ever?

Easy to say for me since I've got more revolvers than I'll ever need, but worrying about an unneeded and possibly unreliable safety device is something I just don't plan to do. Period.

I have a M386 NightGuard.
After 200 rounds of 38spl range ammo, I started testing 357's.
The gun locked on the 2nd 357.
I had to use the "key" (which is actually only a wrench) to unlock it.
When I got home, I pulled the lock flag.

As A followup to my previous comment, I found a link to a Massad Ayoob article, for those of you who don't believe that these locks can fail.
Massad Ayoob * Blog Archive * INTERNAL GUN LOCKS

That's a beautiful gun. Remove the lock guts and you're good to go.

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Centennial Every Day

Yes. The lug on the lock can be easily ground off, disabling the lock. You have to remove the side plate, hammer, and a few other parts, but it is easy to do. PM me if you want details.

JUST IN CASE ... I always carry a S&W key on my key ring.

I find Ayoob's opinions interesting and informative. But... a Series 80 firing pin on a 1911 can fail as well. Mechanical things fail. I'm more concerned about the adrenalin rush and inability to think clearly that I would experience if the unthinkable happened, then I am about a fail to fire.

Been shooting S&W revos for many years, currently own a bunch
of pre-lock guns.

NEVER had one lockup that I couldn't open by hand or by tightening
the rod.

(maybe I don't shoot enough between cleaning/maintainence sessions)
.

but wait, what if I have multiple IL S&W revolvers? how will I know which key goes to which lock??

oh, you say that S&W uses the same lock on all their guns???

so S&W, I now ask you, how is this a "lock" if everyone and their uncle can get a FREE, universal replacement key sent to them in the mail from S&W, just for the asking?



(this post is NOT a dig at the poster of the quoted comment)

That's why a 1911 is my primary and 442 is a secondary carry. If the dreaded Series 80 block fails, and the IL fails, then, well, I probably won't be around long enough to care. /shrug.

Lock or no lock, that's a nice looking pistol! Although, personally, I think it would better without it.

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NRA Certified Instructor

If that was my gun and I had an IL failure, I would put it up for sell and replace it with an older pre-lock gun. That's just me.

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"I'm just a dog chasing cars."

I am so mad at S&W!

My 638-3 has had as many +P rounds through it as I can stand, which isn't a lot; no IL failure!

I usually shoot a box of WC rounds each range trip too; no IL failure!

I lock and unlock the dang thing once in a while; no IL failure!

If it locks up, I plan on sending it back to the factory for a new one so I can try and wreck it too!

No failures yet; I'm soooo mad at S&W!

Twice my guns had the ILS partially lock up on me. Might be the pitchfork's spring failing or might be a piece of gunk just right. Either way I removed them and no problems since then. It's very easy to remove and Bullseye Smith makes it easy to replace. I don't need or want them in there, but it's a very personal decision.

You've been had! You should ask for your money back!

Seriously, for a self defense gun, I don't like them. For any other purpose, the IL doesn't bother me at all (I only own one gun with the IL and it's a fighting gun so I removed the lock guts).

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Centennial Every Day

The lock mechanism can be completely removed, all four parts, with no need to fill or plug any holes or leave any IL parts in the gun. Just take them ALL out, and keep in a safe place ( I use a CF memory card case ) so you can re-install them later if you need to. If you grind off the flag nub, the rest of the parts and the flag can still malfunction anyway.

That little hole left by the bolt is nothing significant. It says "L" for lubricate. Seriously, your revolver has plenty of holes in it already, the muzzle, about 4 exposed chambers, an open slot all around the cylinder, a space behind the trigger. One more hole where the lock was removed is not going to bother anything.

I don't want to downplay a fellow member's product, but I have been wondering the same thing. Now, I can certainly see how it has cosmetic appeal, but in terms of keeping junk out of the mechanism, it seems like it might not be necessary. For example, I keep my handguns in pistol socks in the safe when I am not carrying them...my bedside gun is in a pistol rug...my carry gun is in a rug (in the car) or a holster (pocket or waist) so they aren't exposed to much lint and dirt and stuff anyway. Plus, having that little hole might be good to drop just a tiny drop of lube in when cleaning your revolver.

I guess if you wanted a temporary plug for when you are at the range, I think you could find a little rubber stopper that would fit. Granted, if you want a "permanent" plug, the Plug sold here is the best solution...IMHO.

I'd be sort of interested in a plug for my 649, but then .... that is putting another small part inside the frame, which possibly " might could " potentially in some unforseen unlikely instance .... get in the way.

Does the plug installation require any other parts, any of the original IL parts to be left in place ?

Any answer anyone ?

I bought a Ruger Blackhawk. It had a padlock to lock the gun. I conplained till I saw what Smith did,. I put the lock on my shed. The gun was unaffected

Smith and Wesson have had problems with the spring breaking and making the airweights,and scandium frames lock up. Not all of them did that but if there is problems you have with the ils lock,call S&W up and send it in on their dime.