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  #51  
Old 11-22-2014, 09:07 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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SB: As said a lever IV plate does stop 30-06 AP bullets
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Level IV Body Armor Test - Vuurwapen Blog - YouTube
Sorry, I thought this discussion was on the S&W 500???
Steve
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  #52  
Old 11-22-2014, 01:11 PM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Sorry, I thought this discussion was on the S&W 500???
Steve
Sorry my English is too poor.
Regards donki
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  #53  
Old 11-22-2014, 08:59 PM
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My two main home defense guns that's with me every night is my S&W 29-2 44 Magnum and my Mossberg 12 gauge loaded with 3" Magnum 00 buck.

No way would I ever consider firing one of my .500's in the house.
I wouldn't be so concerned about my ears, but the ears of my dogs.
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  #54  
Old 11-23-2014, 12:18 AM
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I'd imagine some hard-cast spire point 300 or so grain .500 magnums over a maximum charge of something hot would make a great anti-armor round. Whether or not the OP should use them defense is pretty questionably though in terms of practicality and danger to other due to overpenetration.

Still might be a fun experiment though!
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  #55  
Old 11-23-2014, 12:59 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Default the main worry that you should have about using a .500S&W for home defense

is that you are going to have a terrible amount of over penetration of both interior walls & exterior walls.........jeopardizing both your loved ones/family located in other rooms than where your bad guy/home invasion guy is confronted.......and when those .500S&W loads go through your exterior walls, windows & doors............ you place your neighbors and people in transit (walking & driving) thru your neighborhood in deadly peril too...........

We generally felt that most center fire rifle calibres are all considered to be too much.... but recent tests by some authorities say a .223 Rem with the right loads is safer than using a 12ga shotgun with buckshot & slugs..........

What most of us have been saying is.... that any good handgun in 9mmpara, .38Spec, .357 mag, .41mag, .44 spec & .44 mag & .45ACP & .45Colt with dern good bullets & the proper loads will work extremely well.

my choice for home defense shotgun is an old Ithaca mod 37 20ga pump with low brass 7 1/2 shot.....at the 7 yard distance of most residential gunfights........ that load to the head or neck of someone breaking into our home will stop that individual from hurting any of my loved ones/friends in our home.... without jeopardizing someone in another room or different house.
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  #56  
Old 11-23-2014, 01:23 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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years back in the mid 1970's.......... a blue shield treasury agent that I know and admire was serving felony warrants on a known bad guy up in Detroit........ at the bad guy's house.

They made entry after knocking produced no results (had a search warrant too for that location) and Dan was starting to enter a hallway. when the thug jumped out, gun in hand. Dan took him under fire with his 3" .357mag and as they say. the bad guy was dead right there....... but Dan suffered damage to both ears............shooting warm loads thru a snub nosed .357mag in a corridor/hallway is very hard on your hearing............

Several years later.............. Dan has long since gone back to work.... and gets drafted along with a couple of other agents to help the USPS inspectors catch some thugs who were stealing social security checks from people & their mail boxes......... lo and behold...... they catch one in the act ,Dan handcuffs him & puts him in the back seat of his Galaxy (I think, maybe Crown Vic)...........while he completes the paperwork & talks to the guy......... somehow the perp gets his hands in front of him...... & tries to strangle Dan with his cuffed hands.......... dan takes the same 3", .357mag and sticks it under the guys chin & pulls the trigger three times........ the muzzle was less than 6" from Dan's R ear.......& he has even more damage to it that time..........

The point to this is.. firing a .500S&W or a 7.62 Nato M14/M1A in a hallway or small room typical of modern apartments...... will dam sure devastate your hearing............ and the silliest thing about is that you were using way to much gun & jeopardized the lives of loved ones/friends & neighbors while you were using them.......
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  #57  
Old 11-23-2014, 08:40 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Zombie thread alert!

My 2 cents: Are you kidding? The flash, recoil, etc, are likely to contribute in a very BAD way to tactical efficiency. I would sooner grab, well, anything, before I'd grab a .500.

But that's just me, YMMV!
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  #58  
Old 11-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Originally Posted by kip View Post
Obviously a .45 is quicker for CQB and most defensive situations. I always carry my .45 even when I have the .500 in the woods. Does the .500 have a tactical role in regards to barrier penetration? Will it go through stuff that other pistols wont?

There have been more home invasions then I can believe in recent months. Seems like criminals have been wearing body armor more and more. I talked to a PD buddy and he said they purchase vests off ebay or steal them. I know of more than a few instances where the perps had used armor on.

It had me wondering if a .500 S&W out of any barrel length would penetrate armor.

I wouldnt carry this revolver on a regulat basis but do carry in the woods and keep it near my bed. I switched from a shotgun to an assault rifle for home defense bc of suggestions from pd buddies. The .500 smith would be handy if someone was kicking my door down and i knew it would go through stolen armor.
Short answer: Maybe. Body armor is manufactured in multiple threat levels. Might go through some, but not others, but the result is also dependent on the age of the body armor and how often it sat exposed to direct sunlight, say in the back window or seat of a cruiser. Agencies generally purchase line officer body armor at a level that will stop the agency issued handgun. Trauma plates increase the stopping power. Tactical team armor, steel plates, ballistic shields, etc. increase the chance of a stop. Velocity generally kills, as very few armors that can be worn will stop rifle ammunition. High powered pistol ammunition also poses problems. As mentioned earlier, the blunt trauma effect will cause significant damage even if the round doesn't actually penetrate.
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  #59  
Old 11-23-2014, 09:59 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Guys, the thread seems to be resurrected about once a year, and the OP hasn't been here for 2 1/2 years...hope he never had to use his 500 for the body-armor clad hordes invading his home, or just found himself armor of his own and a .308 .
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  #60  
Old 11-23-2014, 10:08 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Wow, very interesting, if old, thread. My observations:

1. Can you use a .500 for SD/HD? Yes, yes you can. You can also use a Howitzer to hunt hummingbirds but I think it's a bit of over kill.

2. .500 penetrating body armor? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it's irrelevant. Blunt force trauma will more than suffice in the neutralization of a BG threat whether he's wearing body armor or not.

3. The mere thought of firing a .500 indoors makes my ears ring like a dinner bell. The actual experience of doing such a thing would have to be catastrophic for both you and whomever else is in the house. the over pressure alone would do severe damage.

4. If you are forced to use a .500 in a SD/HD mode and fire it indoors, you'd better hit the BG the first time. With the probable ear damage, loss of night vision, recoil and disorientation there will likely not be a second shot. Yes, some of you guys are very capable of handling a .500 very adeptly. But the average shooter, like myself, NFW.

Bottom line: The .500 is an incredible round when used for the purposes for which it was intended. Indoors as a SD/HD weapon of choice was one of those purposes. Choose a weapon you can shoot accurately, repeatedly and effectively.

Bob
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  #61  
Old 11-23-2014, 11:27 AM
Guitarmageddon Guitarmageddon is offline
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Originally Posted by stantheman86 View Post
+1 for that, IMO .500 has little "tactical" application and was designed for large game hunting, not self defense.

Ironically, you would need to go in a completely opposite direction if you want a handgun that penetrates body armor. The 7.62 Tokarev will penetrate some types of soft armor, and the 5.7 FN rounds that civilians can't get is designed to penetrate body armor. Light, small, very fast bullets will zip through body armor.......think of the 5.7 as a razor sharp needle, and the .500 as a heavy sledgehammer.

If you are worried about home intruders wearing body armor,you might want to use something like an AR15 or something in 5.56-.223 for home defense. When I was in the Army I got my hands on some old soft Kevlar body armor panels, rated for 9mm. We took these "expired" panels to a range and shot them with 5.56 and it went through like paper. I can't imagine bad guys, in general, having good enough body armor to stop a 5.56, like ceramic plates. That stuff is expensive and hard to get. BG's wearing a vest are more likely hoping to stop rounds from a homeowner with a 9mm or .38. Hit a guy wearing armor with a .357, or a 12 ga. and he's gonna be out of it.

If you use a .500 for home defense you better keep a rag next to the gun, so you can mop up the blood that will be pouring out your ears if you touch off a .500 inside a house. I also hope there are no neighbors and you live alone.

Lots of foreign counter-terror units use .357 revolvers for close up room clearing, because even a bad guy with good body armor is gonna be out of the fight after a .357 center mass. And the muzzle blast and recoil is not extreme with a .357, and it gives good close up stopping power in tight confines. The French GIGN makes extensive use of .357 revolvers and list Manurhin and Ruger GP100 .357's as weapons they use. They need revolvers this tough because they do a lot of training with the .357's. The Navy SEALS also used S&W 66 and 686 wheelguns, I wish someone with info would chime in as to whether the SEALS or any other US special ops units use .357 revolvers anymore.
Seriously, most people in a cruddy situation are going to not just think of "2 to the chest, follow up with 1 to the head if he continues to pursue". No, you are going to pull the trigger until the person stops because space=time and in the cqb world, you deal in inches.

Totally second the 5.7 option you stated. However, I'm not really schooled up on the potential over penetration issues with that round. Someone smarter than me can add.

When I went through my first advanced urban combat course in the marine corps, we instinctively developed the habit of calling out "body armor!"x3 if anyone in the house was wearing it. That meant everyone from there on out received a failure to stop drill since the initial 2 to the chest may not be enough, and if one person has it, assume they all do

All that said, if you are hit with pretty much anything higher than a 22LR, and you have just a simple vest, youre going to probably have a seat for a few seconds, and re-evaluate your big boy choices. Would any of you want to strap a vest on and try to fight someone who has a 9mm and think you can hang after a few thumps to the chest? Now imagine a 357....and its goodnight

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  #62  
Old 11-23-2014, 11:30 AM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Well I live in a location where there is no chance of Collateral Damage from over Penetration. If I feel that my .44 Mag is insufficient to stop an Armored BG from breaking down my door, I go to my Rifles. Not a puny .223, a real Battle Rifle. The M14.
Please show the folks in the audience the rifle on the far left!
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:06 PM
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The 500 will not perforate a vest but neither will a Buick Regal....
Both will transfer a LOT of energy to your body and it will leave a mark.

Unless someone has several inches of padding under their armor taking a direct hit should put them down. Always double tap (two shots) and if not sure a round to the head or unshielded extremities.
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:32 PM
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I believe John Ross used/uses a short barreled .500 S&W X-frame as a carry gun. I think he even had S&W make a model specially for him if I remember right.

I think that unto itself shows that the .500 S&W cartridge CAN be used for defensive use, but only if you can handle it. No doubt one would probably not need to hit the perp twice with it!
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Guitarmageddon View Post
Please show the folks in the audience the rifle on the far left!
Ok: It's a JRA M14SA in a Sage Stock, configured to resemble the Navy M14 Mod 0 currently in use by the Seals. Scope is a Vortex 4-16 PST. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_14_E...d_Battle_Rifle

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Old 11-23-2014, 02:44 PM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Ok: It's a JRA M14SA in a Sage Stock, configured to resemble the Navy M14 Mod 0 currently in use by the Seals. Scope is a Vortex 4-16 PST.
I don't have up close personal contact with many Seals anymore but, nothing like what I remember them talking about carrying?
To space warsy.
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:37 PM
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They also come with Magpul furniture to save some weight....

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Old 11-24-2014, 07:02 AM
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The 500 will not perforate a vest but neither will a Buick Regal....
Both will transfer a LOT of energy to your body and it will leave a mark.

Unless someone has several inches of padding under their armor taking a direct hit should put them down. Always double tap (two shots) and if not sure a round to the head or unshielded extremities.
Executions are not legal. Stop the threat and nothing more. Death of the perp while stopping the threat is incidental.
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Old 11-24-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by at_liberty View Post
Executions are not legal. Stop the threat and nothing more. Death of the perp while stopping the threat is incidental.

That's a bit out of line. If you have legal justification for the use of deadly force it is in no way an execution.

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Old 11-24-2014, 05:06 PM
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That's a bit out of line. If you have legal justification for the use of deadly force it is in no way an execution.
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and if not sure a round to the head or unshielded extremities.
The finishing head shot is mall ninja stuff.
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Old 11-27-2014, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rocketgeezer View Post
I think I would have to third that, this gun fired inside a house would be defining, makes my eardrums hurt just thinking about it, and unless you were useing downloaded target ammo, a rd could go through a BG and your side wall then into your neighbors house
True, but it is also make the bad guy very deaf as well and probably leave him in shock since he had no idea he would run into that Kodiak Bear killing cannon, IMO.
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Old 11-27-2014, 09:33 PM
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I think there is a different approach for thinking this through.

Body armor is not quite what many think. There are levels of body armor, and what most don't like wearing with body armor are the extra plates that will stop rifle rounds, such as 7.62 NATO. However, firing stuff like that in a house is dangerous business. It's difficult to get handguns that can fire ammunition to energy levels that will defeat such plates, but who, even criminals, are really going to wear them?

I have a hard time believing that a 3" express magnum 0 or 00 buckshot will not disable someone with even IIIa body armor. The arms and face and lower extremities that are struck with such projectiles can be enough as evidence by shrapnel wounds for military that wear such devices.

When I was in Iraq, the first week we were there a company commander was in a direct IED strike. Essentially, his torso was intact, but the shock to his system on his extremities disabled him immediately and he died from shock. Body armor like that is designed to allow you to survive an attack, not necessarily to be able continue operations. That is provided there is immediate response available and other fighting forces in the area. Shrapnel from even 60mm mortars took down people wearing full body armor; I knew a soldier (wearing full body armor) that took a sliver of 60mm mortar that struck right in the throat and he barely survived; he was immediately incapacitated.

Were it me facing the threat you describe, I would load up a 3" magnum 00BK, maybe an autoloader for a threat like that. With that, you really don't have to aim, and only one pellet needs strike critical area. Handguns are chancy devices against a well armed and armored enemy, and rifles are easy to aim incorrectly, unless you are extremely well trained. At very close range, the shotgun always rules, and doesn't require nearly as much training or skill to use.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:14 PM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Executions are not legal. Stop the threat and nothing more. Death of the perp while stopping the threat is incidental.

"Execution " is your choice of words and not mine and a poor one IMHO.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:31 PM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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The finishing head shot is mall ninja stuff.

No one but yourself said anything about " a finishing head shot".

Simply put a strike to the head , brain stem or spine that cuts off motor function or central nervous system works 100% body armor or not.
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:17 PM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Unless someone has several inches of padding under their armor taking a direct hit should put them down.
Please take the time to watch the video at the bottom of page 1 before conjecturing.
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:46 PM
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.500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it? .500 S&W will it penetrate body armor and common barriers? Tactical role of it?  
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Please take the time to watch the video at the bottom of page 1 before conjecturing.
That vest is (supposedly) a Second Chance Hardcorp III vest with a weight of 35 lbs and rated for rifle fire. It has added material compared to the typical level II / IIIA vests common today.

Run the same test with a pistol rated vest and you get holes in it or more trauma dumped on the person wearing it.
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