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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 06-07-2011, 07:02 PM
wrangler5 wrangler5 is offline
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Default BK Grip Adapters

The following post from 6/4/11 is copied from the Tyler T Grip thread:

I posted a while ago that I was thinking of making these things out of resin. The learning curve has been steeper than I expected, but I have produced a few that I would appreciate feedback on before I proceed further. What I have are J frame size in satin black - I have been unable to maintain glossy black with the mold and material I have to date, although I did produce some glossy ones in black and a few other colors early on.

I would hope to sell a final product for $20 plus shipping, but at this point I will sell the few samples I've produced for $15 delivered in order to get some feedback. If you are interested, and do NOT live in Missouri (I'm not ready to deal with the sales tax people until I'm sure I'm in business) please send me an email at [email protected] . I will send PayPal payment instructions. If there is more interest than I have product I'll pick the "lucky" folks who get the payment instructions, so if you'd like to say just why you really need a lightweight grip adapter right now please embellish your email. Please don't ask for one of these if you won't give me some feedback after you get it and try it.

I've attached some images of what I've done so far. It's hard to tell, but one of 'em is a medium gray, which just sort of "happened" with one of the black castings. I do have black and white dyes and can try to make gray if there's an interest, as well as a number of other colors. (Green, or blue, anybody? How about international orange?)

Thanks for any interest.
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File Type: jpg Grip Adapters 1 small.jpg (34.4 KB, 8707 views)
File Type: jpg Grip Adapters 3 small.jpg (37.4 KB, 2483 views)
File Type: jpg Grip Adapters 4 small.jpg (42.0 KB, 2599 views)
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  #2  
Old 06-07-2011, 07:05 PM
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The following post from 6/5/11 is copied from the Tyler T Grip thread:

At the request of several I'm attaching close (well, closer) up shots of the 4 colors I've actually made so far.

Note the notch in the edge of the gray model - this is one of the casting difficulties I had to solve with a second mold.

In addition to gold and red (the gray was an "accident" when casting black, but I think it's good looking and hope I can reproduce it with black and white) I have relatively opaque colorants for orange, blue, green, brown, yellow and white. There are also a wide range of translucent colors, of which I have tried the pink, but I don't think translucence is particularly attractive in this application and don't expect to make any more that way.

BTW, if these discussions should be put in a separate thread, or moved to another forum, please let me know. I'm pretty new to this list and certainly don't know all the protocols.
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File Type: jpg Grip Gold small.jpg (38.9 KB, 1529 views)
File Type: jpg Grip Gray small.jpg (40.9 KB, 1607 views)
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  #3  
Old 06-07-2011, 07:16 PM
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Subscribing, they look real good man. Let us know when you get all the little bugs worked out and start going full production, i definitely want a set.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:19 PM
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Good job on the thread separation.
This one for discussion, feedback etc.

When you start 'selling' them, then a thread in the classified is in order.

And keep us posted on the J-frames. I've got a M36 that needs a black one.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:22 PM
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Default Status report as of 6/7/11

Today I had a long talk with my mold maker about a new J frame mold to replace the one that wore out. New cans of material arrived, but not the mold release - presumably that will arrive tomorrow, as they charged my credit card yesterday. (Unlike some company we're all aware of, these guys WILL deliver what they charge you for. Promptly.)

I spent some time pouring "pucks" (tinted and mixed the resin, but let it harden in the mixing cup) using each of the tints I have available. That's black, white, red, blue, green, brown, yellow, and gold. (I don't plan to do much with the translucent pink that I have.)

I also experimented making a dark green (looks good), dark brown (also looks good), dark blue (almost indistinguishable from black - and I only added 1 drop of black to the mix, so not sure how to lighten that one up) and three shades of gray, all of which look nice. The darkest shade is pretty close to the gray one in the photos, which was an accident that showed up from a pure black pour - I have no idea how it happened, but at least I can now reproduce it if desired.

Nobody I've talked to has a good idea for how to make a variegated pour like the gold adapter in the photos exhibits. That was another accident which I have been unable to figure out how to reproduce. I did a few experiments, but none were successful. Work will continue, though, as I still believe a dark brown tortoise shell would be both classy and unique.

I would post photos of the color pucks, but my friend who is consulting with me on this project borrowed my strobes. Hopefully I'll get the lights back in a day or two.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:43 PM
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Put me in line for a couple of "N" frame Black..When your ready... Those look awsome!!!
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  #7  
Old 06-07-2011, 07:49 PM
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i too, am interested in a couple of black ones for a j frame or two.
any colt stuff in the works?

pm is welcome!
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  #8  
Old 06-07-2011, 08:16 PM
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I'm in for a black J frame. Tagged
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:05 PM
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I think you should work the kinks out and only worry about doing them in black to start with. You can add colors later. You already have guys here wanting black and I believe you could sale a lot of them. Get molds for different frame sizes and maybe as mentioned some for Colts, Ruger,etc. Black ones will sale.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:11 PM
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I'm very glad to see this, Wrangler. I thought of trying the same sort of thing myself but you took the bull by the horns and good on you!

Like others have said, the black would sell very well, maybe the best. I think if you could get something close to aged ivory you'd have another winner on your hands.

Looking forward to getting my hands on one!
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:15 PM
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I think if you can get a very, very dark blue to come close the the current factory blue/black metal finish, and also a satin silver/gray color to match stainless you'll have a couple of popular colors. If you can perfect a marbled look, something to look like walnut would probably sell too. Good luck with the project.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:16 PM
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They look great. I carry a model 37 off-duty and would interested in getting one in black or the dark brown tortoise shell would be pretty unique.
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  #13  
Old 06-07-2011, 10:36 PM
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I've created a new email box, [email protected]. If anybody needs to talk privately, please use that instead of the PM function here - my PM mailbox is nearly full, and it's not nearly as convenient for me to deal with as straight email.

Thanks for everybody's support.

Cheers,
Kip
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:12 PM
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Default Don't Forget Colts!

Kip - I know you've got to work your way down the learning curve and obviously Smith & Wesson revolvers are where you're starting. However, don't forget that there are a LOT of old Colt revolvers out there too. My Tyler T-Grip order was for a Colt Officers Model 38. Bottom line, there may be even more business out here than you realize.
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:35 PM
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By God, isn't this just what America is supposed to be all about. An individual taking initative and stepping foward to actually solve a problem and in the process starting a good business and helping people out. Kip, you should be proud, you have what looks like a great product and you have the right attitude, keep it going. You will get all the support you need. Good luck in your venture.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Rego View Post
I think if you can get a very, very dark blue to come close the the current factory blue/black metal finish, and also a satin silver/gray color to match stainless you'll have a couple of popular colors. If you can perfect a marbled look, something to look like walnut would probably sell too. Good luck with the project.
Blue-black I can do (have done), I just have to work out the blending a bit more so it looks a little more blue than I've made so far.

One thing I have to avoid is ending up with 57 varieties for people to choose from (which it looks like Tyler has with his trigger shoes - wonder how deliveries on THOSE are going?) and find I can't keep up with the variations. If I fall behind because too many people are ordering the basic black model, there are easily implemented, if expensive, industrial solutions for that (I met with an injection molder yesterday, just to start the conversation, in case I need to go there.) But the only reason I'm as far along with this project as I am is because somebody else, for whatever reasons, couldn't keep up with demand across 9 products x 6 finishes.

Bottom line: I would like to be able to offer each customer exactly what they want (I have the impression that's considered to be a good business practice ) but to begin with I have to follow KISS. I will (I hope I have time to) continue to experiment with color options, but to begin with, it's probably going to be whatever color you want as long as it's black. (Or maybe blue black. Or maybe . . . )

But do keep those cards and letters coming.
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:34 AM
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Bottom line: I would like to be able to offer each customer exactly what they want (I have the impression that's considered to be a good business practice ) but to begin with I have to follow KISS. I will (I hope I have time to) continue to experiment with color options, but to begin with, it's probably going to be whatever color you want as long as it's black. (Or maybe blue black. Or maybe . . . )

Good decision. Please keep us informed.
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:52 AM
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Here's another "well done" and vote of support. Basic black works for a lot of things and probably will be an excellent starting point for your grip adapters. When the N-frames are up and running I'll place an order with you.

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Old 06-08-2011, 12:05 PM
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I'm most anxious for you to get started. Any chance you'll be able to produce something close to the satin nickle or stainless finish?
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:05 PM
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Eventually I'm gonna need a couple for N Frames and several for the Colt New Service.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:36 PM
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I will take a black rd butt J frame. Send me your address and I'll put a 10 and a 5 in an envelope to you. easier than pay pal
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:28 PM
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I think sticking with basic black and expanding the number of models covered would give you a bigger potential market than offering 5 or 6 colors for 1 or 2 S&W revolver frames. However, changing the color is probably a whole lot easier and less expensive than creating a new mold.

It's worth noting (for my selfish purposes) that Tyler offered one "style" that fits a LOT of old Colts: Trooper, Python, 357, New Service, Official Police, and Officers Model all fall into one style apparently.

BTW there's a new development at Tyler Mfg! The phone now rings with a fast busy signal! No more useless voicemail "greeting". (I try to call them about once a week despite the futility of the endeavor.)

Last edited by TheTinMan; 06-08-2011 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Tyler phone busy signal
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:34 PM
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Way to go Wrangler. I admire what you are doing. I'll allow things to calm down for you and then probably order a couple. Just a thought. I can see copies of this thread being "Historically valuable" about 50+ yrs. from now when members of this forum in the future discuss the "early days" of the BK Grip Company!
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:38 PM
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Since you're soliciting thoughts, here's mine.

I think you're on the right track about limiting the color options, at least initially. But I also think that you might want to add gray as a basic option too. LOTS of stainless guns out there any almost any shade of gray will look better than black.

Just my .02. Congrats on your business venture and I for one would be interested in ALL frame sizes when you come fully on line.

Good luck and God Bless.
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:50 PM
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They look good. I will follow the progression of these.
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:05 PM
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Nice work. 2 colors:
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:35 PM
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I look forward to buying some!
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:57 PM
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I agree... keep it simple to start and offer black and gray for the J frames. Add others as your expertise and time allow. Don't try to be all things to all people or you'll be swamped. You can look forward to an order from me in the future.
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:23 PM
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Thanks for the support. My mold didn't get made yesterday - the mold maker is almost as small a business as I am, and he simply got swamped by a more urgent customer need. I'm assured the mold will be available tomorrow, so after my scheduled lunch in another state I'll hope to pick it up and start making even better adapters tomorrow night.

In one or two colors.
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTinMan View Post
I think sticking with basic black and expanding the number of models covered would give you a bigger potential market than offering 5 or 6 colors for 1 or 2 S&W revolver frames. However, changing the color is probably a whole lot easier and less expensive than creating a new mold.

It's worth noting (for my selfish purposes) that Tyler offered one "style" that fits a LOT of old Colts: Trooper, Python, 357, New Service, Official Police, and Officers Model all fall into one style apparently.

BTW there's a new development at Tyler Mfg! The phone now rings with a fast busy signal! No more useless voicemail "greeting". (I try to call them about once a week despite the futility of the endeavor.)
Sad but I keep trying the number too. Keep hoping this is some sort of terrible misunderstanding! I dialed their number so much I have it memorized.
The future is BK Grips, the professional operator's choice!
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Old 06-08-2011, 04:44 PM
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Phase one, complete:





So far I would say the fit is near perfect. I will give the edges a very light sanding just to take the sharp edge some rounding. This Friday will be range testing... More to come...

But so far...
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Old 06-08-2011, 04:56 PM
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And a new era of old school goodness begins...


Looking forward to the range report.
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Old 06-08-2011, 05:16 PM
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Oh man. Ill buy two K frames, and 1 N frame.. I cant wait for when they are available. I feel like a kid on christmas!
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Old 06-08-2011, 05:19 PM
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Those black grip adapters look pretty good; some fine finishing of the rough edges should do wonders. Hope you can find a suitable mix that will look good with aluminum and nickeled finishes! Keep us posted on progress. I think you will have plenty of folks to sell to!

John
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Old 06-08-2011, 06:26 PM
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Kip:

E-mail sent to new address concerning receipt of adapter and evaluation.
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Old 06-08-2011, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximumbob54 View Post
Phase one, complete:

So far I would say the fit is near perfect. I will give the edges a very light sanding just to take the sharp edge some rounding. This Friday will be range testing... More to come...

But so far...
Nice pix, Bob. Thanks for posting them. I'm always glad for people to see that there's more than just me and Photoshop behind this project
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Old 06-08-2011, 07:41 PM
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I don't wanna rain on the parade, but I am not having alot of luck fitting the J-frame adapter to my M&P340. There is a gap of day-light between frame and adapter. I tried them on the revolver with both S&W grips and after-market grips. Pix attached.....

Should I grind into the channel to allow the frame to seat or just try them on a different J-frame?
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  #38  
Old 06-08-2011, 10:26 PM
wrangler5 wrangler5 is offline
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Originally Posted by luangtom View Post
I don't wanna rain on the parade, but I am not having alot of luck fitting the J-frame adapter to my M&P340. There is a gap of day-light between frame and adapter. I tried them on the revolver with both S&W grips and after-market grips. Pix attached.....

Should I grind into the channel to allow the frame to seat or just try them on a different J-frame?
No, those don't look like they're fitting quite right, Tom. I checked yours (and everybody else's I mailed out the other day) on my 49 (20 years old, steel) and they fit fine. I've also just checked another one from the same mold on my 442 which is only a couple of months old. I only have one pair of the standard (Magna) grips, so I used them on both guns.

In both cases, the top radius of the grip adapter comes at least up to if not actually a hair above the frame edge ahead of where the grip ends. It looks like yours won't go up that high. On both of mine, the front lip of the adapter also rests against the back of the trigger guard. I can't tell if yours fits well in that spot or not - looks like maybe, but not sure.

The bottom tip of the grip adapter should be about a full quarter of an inch above the bottom line of the grip frame. Looks like yours might not fit up that high.

Can you tell where the interference is coming from? Is the channel above the copper clip too narrow, such that it's bottoming out on the frame before the adapter gets fully up around it? I'm not sure why it should be doing that on your frame when it didn't on mine, but then again maybe the Scandium frames have a slightly different contour.

One thing you might check: I believe the adapters actually "bottom" (top?) out against the wood of the grips. On my grips, the bottom "tip" of the grip is exactly on top of the edge of the frame. I can't tell for sure from the photos, but it looks like on yours the left hand (cylinder latch) side grip has a tip that might come down below the edge of the frame. It looks like the adapter is pretty well snug up against the wood of the grip, but it may be the shape of the grip that won't let it get up high enough to meet the frame.

If the problem is not the grip itself keeping the adapter down away from the frame, you can certainly file or grind out the channel if you like. It's more likely to be the sides that need to be thinned than the bottom of the channel itself, but in any event please be careful doing so. I use an Xacto wood carving blade in the large handle to relieve the channel (which is completely blocked by the casting sprue when the thing comes out of the mold) but the plastic is softer when I'm carving on it. I also use a leather thimble on my carving thumb, and a full carving glove on my other hand, when I'm wielding a knife around these things. It's awfully easy to slip when carving on this relatively hard substance.

But if you'd rather not mess with it, please just send the thing back and I'll refund your original payment plus the return shipping.

Whichever way you want to go, many thanks for your feedback.
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2011, 10:34 PM
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that post above is enough for me to order some whether I need them or not....and I do need K and N frame....
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  #40  
Old 06-08-2011, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
Those black grip adapters look pretty good; some fine finishing of the rough edges should do wonders. Hope you can find a suitable mix that will look good with aluminum and nickeled finishes! Keep us posted on progress.
The top edges were the worst segment of the mold that just died. There was a huge sprue that came in there, that I had to keep trimming back to get rid of air pockets that left voids. This in turn produced a ragged top edge that had to be trimmed, filed, etc. And I haven't found a polishing system that can put those edges back to fully smooth. It's all cosmetic, of course, but I'm hoping that the new mold will solve that particular problem, at least partially.

As to colors for stainless and nickel frames, I'm guessing that my light gray ( a little lighter than the gray one I photographed earlier) will be an OK solution unless and until I can find a technology that allows a true metallic look. When I get past the basic black production I'll make a few gray ones in different tones and try to find nickel and stainless frames to check 'em out on. (Note: sentence ended with TWO prepositions. Extra points. )
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  #41  
Old 06-08-2011, 10:53 PM
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I will put some more time into looking at proper fit tomorrow when I am more coherent. I do know that the after-market grips are much thinner than the S&W ones and the adapter still does not fit well at the rear of the trigger-guard/front of grip. I still see day-light between adapter and frame.

If I can get some better pix tomorrow, I will forward those, too.
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  #42  
Old 06-08-2011, 11:29 PM
PhilOhio PhilOhio is offline
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Wrangler5,

I think your project is absolutely great. I'm glad to see somebody who decides to just do it. I've got a couple suggestions. Maybe you've already thought of them.

From what I have seen of a lot of older Smiths, up through the postwar period, the grip frame profiles don't always seem to be perfectly uniform from run to run. But maybe that was only in pre-CNC days. I wonder if your molds could be made to cast a more concave inner surface, so only the sprue has to be cut/trimmed/ground out? I'm talking much more concave than fitting right against the rounded revolver frame. Leave a slight empty space in the middle, maybe 1/16" deep, with only the edges fitting closely to the pistol frame. They'll be more easy to fit, but also...

For the following reason...

Installation could then involve laying a thin bead of G.E. clear silicone or the equivalent into the concave area, attaching the adapter, tightening the grip screw, and wiping away the oozed silicone with a clean soft cloth. It cures overnight. And the adapters would be a perfect, non-moving fit to any frame within a series. Those thin mounting tabs would do an even better job of holding the thing in place, as there would be no tendency to move laterally or horizontally. It would be rock solid, even under considerable recoil. But it would still pop right off when you want it to remove it. Then peel away and discard the silicone, before mounting on another gun. It's wonderful, trouble free, non-toxic stuff to work with.

A tiny throw-away tube of silicone could be included with the adapter. Other people package it besides G.E.

The stuff would not damage bluing or aluminum and it comes right off anytime. A new bead of silicone would perfect-fit it to another gun which might have a slightly different frame profile. So no adapter has to be permanently modified to fit only one particular gun. The silicone custom fits it, if the adapter's mating surface is kept slightly concave, to hold silicone.

Another suggestion: Experimentation should show what proportion of powdered aluminum or metallic pigment mixed into the resin would make the adapters a dead ringer for metal. And with good molds, they ought to look almost like they are polished.

By the way, you can mix various pigments with the clear silicone also, if you want even the hairline frame/adapter joint to be the "right" color.

I've played around with pigments in molded synthetics in bygone years, and it doesn't take much to get some pretty nice effects. And with most epoxies, you would have to use far too much of it before coming close to interfering with strength or setting/curing characteristics.

And another one: A Dremel tool with a 1/2" sanding drum and an AMERICAN MADE coarse slip-on sanding insert will take care of all your removal of material from the inner area which fits against the frame. Just don't run it too fast, or it will heat and soften your part, and the sanding surface will permanently load up. Then you'll have to spend $.30 on another one. There is little danger of slipping and ruining the part, or your anatomy, and one insert would do many, many pieces. I have not yet found a Chinese insert that lasts more than a few seconds. The good ones are great for wood, plastic, even steel. I use them for shaping custom wood grips, where I may need to remove a lot or just a little wood in the easiest, quickest way.

Good luck. Great project. You must be having a lot of fun with this.
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:25 AM
wrangler5 wrangler5 is offline
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Thanks for all the thoughts, PhilOhio. I have indeed thought of some of these things, but it's always good to get even the same thought from a different set of eyes.

As to the fit of the adapters, they already are pretty "hollow" down their center. They really index at their edges, mostly against the wood of the grips. But the idea of using silicone to fill in between the adapter and the frame is an interesting one. It certainly seems like a low risk proposition for anyone who wants to try it.

I have discussed the powdered aluminum approach with my materials supplier. That is indeed an available option, with materials available from their catalog. But it involves a more complex routine for preparing the mold for each pour, requires a mold dedicated to cold casting of the particular metal involved, it takes 24 hours to cure, and then requires polishing the demolded part to get down to the embedded metal. So, significant mold expense for 1 part/day that still requires hand finishing. I sort of concluded that it wouldn't be the most profitable way to spend my time.

Thanks for mentioning the Dremel tool. As I already noted, the inside of the adapter is already hollow, so I don't need to sand or grind it out. But you remind me that I could put a small, side cutting mill in a Dremel and it might cut through the sprue easier than the Xacto knife I'm using now. Have to give that a try tomorrow.
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:47 AM
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Default M&P 340 fit

Originally Posted by luangtom
I don't wanna rain on the parade, but I am not having alot of luck fitting the J-frame adapter to my M&P340. There is a gap of day-light between frame and adapter. I tried them on the revolver with both S&W grips and after-market grips. Pix attached.....

Should I grind into the channel to allow the frame to seat or just try them on a different J-frame?



I have a M&P 340 and the trigger guard seems to be bigger than any of my other 3 J frames(a 640 pre-lock, 442 pre-lock and a 642 pre-lock). It did not fit my other J frame holsters. Fit too tight in the trigger guard area. This may be why luangtom is having trouble with his adapter.
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  #45  
Old 06-09-2011, 08:22 AM
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FYI... Many of the Tyler adapters I've used over the years did not fit well... especially at the top of the curve behind the trigger guard. I'm not sure if this was a Tyler issue or an issue of guns with different years of manufacture being different at that location.
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  #46  
Old 06-09-2011, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photoman44 View Post
FYI... Many of the Tyler adapters I've used over the years did not fit well... especially at the top of the curve behind the trigger guard. I'm not sure if this was a Tyler issue or an issue of guns with different years of manufacture being different at that location.
I've had this issue when switching my small sample of T Grips around from gun to gun. They fit some guns better than others.

I never let it bother me--I don't expect a piston fit from something like this.
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  #47  
Old 06-09-2011, 08:57 AM
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The last I knew (and this might have changed) GE silicone contains acetic acid (that's what gives it a vinegar smell). I would be afraid that the acid might eat into the blueing or cause stains. Just a word of caution.
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  #48  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:46 PM
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"The last I knew (and this might have changed) GE silicone contains acetic acid (that's what gives it a vinegar smell). I would be afraid that the acid might eat into the blueing or cause stains. Just a word of caution."

Loco Weed, that's really important to know. I had noticed the smell, but did not know it contained acetic acid. I also noticed that some of the other silicone, or similar to silicone, sealers do not have the same smell. Maybe they do not all use acetic acid. All of these are recommended for use on steel and aluminum, among other things, but I guess a little research and experimentation would get us to the exact correct one.

But I think this concept is the way to go, for getting all the "play" out of an attachment like this, and keeping it secure under many recoil cycles. In fact, if it doesn't move around, it should also eliminate all, or almost all, creation of shiny spots on the bluing or anodization. It creates a cushion.
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  #49  
Old 06-09-2011, 03:29 PM
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If you cast any K-Frame that end up black or gray swirl, let me know! Might be just the thing for these black pearls on my 64.
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  #50  
Old 06-09-2011, 03:29 PM
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Are the adapters injection molded shots or poured molds? Just curious.
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