Question for you folks; have any of you folks seen the new S&W Governor? Any thoughts on this particular revolver?
I love the idea of several ammo options on one gun frame. I don't know about the moon clip thing for the .45 acp though? The Taurus 9mm revolver I had had a moon clip and I hated it! It didn't seem to hold the rounds very well. But I loved the fact of shooting 9 mm rounds in a revolver and my auto-loader!
So, I'm anxiously waiting to see one of these little puppies up close and personal!
A .410 shotgun shell, a .45 long colt AND an acp, WOW!!

I pick up mine tomorrow. There are a couple of detailed threads on other forums showing detailed photos and some range results. I'm buying mine as a plinking toy - I think its a great choice for that. I think it's ok for SD, but there are better choices (and it's too bulky for a regular carry piece). I think it's over-rated for much else though a few have posted reviews about using the Judge as a ranch/fence-line gun which makes some sense). I used to think the Judge was a bad idea, but the more I read and the more range videos I say the more I warmed to the idea. And I love the multi-caliber aspect - both for plinking and as part of my bug-out kit.

And I do think the Governor has bested the Judge by a wide margin - front tritium night sight, 6 rounds v. 5, scandium frame, S&W quality and 3 calibers. It's not available in 3" chamber but honestly I wouldn't want that, makes a bulking gun more bulky and totally unbalanced. As to moonclips, I have 4 other revolvers that use moonclips: M610 (10mm/.40), 625JM and 625 Night Guard (both .45 acp) and Dan Wesson .460 Rowland/.45 acp. The moon clips take a little getting used to but have some advantages, mostly very quick reloading. You really need to invest in a mooning-demooning tool if you're going to use them much, but that's a minor investment and a huge convenience. That said, I also shoot .45 Auto Rim so that I have the option of not using moonclips (which will also work in the Governor).

Can't get em out here in California I'm pretty sure. I was told they treat them like a short barrel shotgun because of the .410 loads. Lame

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S&W 686-6 Plus Pro Series

I want one, now.

Never felt the need or saw the usefulness before, but watching Jerry Miculek yesterday, on one of those TV gun shows, put 6 rounds of the latest/greatest .410 self defense loads on a target in 1.2 seconds intrigues me. Made a big 'ol mess out of that paper target, anyway......

I like Scandium. My 329PD is my favorite daily carry, and a superb .44 Special.

Saving my pennies.

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matt

I have fired the Governor and the Judge and I can honestly say I prefer the Governor. For the use it was intended, you don't want a 3" chamber, it makes the gun too big and it is more difficult for women to handle. With the loads now developed for .410 handguns, you have quite a selection. The felt recoil is handled well with the Governor, and is very controllable.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

My intent is not to start a flame war but...what will this gun do that a .45 colt or .45 acp revolver won't do?

I "get" the birdshot potential for snakes, rats and such but what I don't "get" is the defensive potential of either buck, ball, or disc loads over say a 25 or 625 in either .45 flavor. What's the deal? Not too many issues a solid hit with even a mild .45 colt or acp won't solve.

Not that anyone has to justify another gun purchase, more power to ya and great that we can still do so but I just don't get it.

Holler back.

If I had access to a skeet range, it would be fun to try it on flying targets. Beyond that, I'd be hard pressed to really find a niche for it.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I have an ultralight Judge which is used only for rogue snakes and I don't plan on replacing it. But... I was in my LGS the other day and they had a Governor which had already been sold. I lusted after it because of the higher quality than my Judge and simply because it was a S&W and I didn't have one. Once they become more widely available I think they'll give the Judge a run for its money.

I thought I was enchanted by the idea but in my hand it was not only ugly but ungainly and unbalanced.

To each his own. There's plenty of other items on my list so I won't suffer too badly not lusting for this model.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

Well, your point is solid! I have a couple of 625s in both calibers, a Ruger Alaskan in 454c/45c and a Dan Wesson in 460r/45c, two 1911s and now a Governor, so you can say I'm fond of .45s. I don't think the Governor loaded with .410s would be my first choice for SD or HD, but some of the newly-develoed loads are very interesting and I think we're going to see some real innovation in this area.

IMO there seems to be two areas where I think there might be some added value, especially as these SD/HD loads evolve and improve: the spread offered by the speciality loads (like the "discs") gives a home defender, terrified in the middle of the night and with limited experience, a substantially greater chance of connecting with the target (though, admittedly, each disc or pellet has limited stopping power as compared to a .45 acp JHP). And there's much less chance of accidentally killing a neighbor if you live in close quarters. Both are worthy considerations but won't be the right choice for everyone - I'm a reasonably good shot and don't live in close quarters, so my HD guns are an S&W M&P .40 & two 1911s; my hiking carry is either a .41m, a .44m or a .45c with hot loads.

I appreciate all who posted responses. Some very good points were made and I respect them all. When my LGS finally receives some of these then I'll be able to see up close how these guys look.
After the "looking" portion, then I'll decide if I could see myself getting one. I don't think I'll get over the allure of different ammo packages on one gun. But hey! What's life without a little diversity?!

IMO it's an answer to a question that never should have been asked.

Shotshells don't pattern well out of a rifled barrel, so the effective range will be limited, perhaps 10 feet or less. With the reduced charge weight of the 410, you'll have to be very aware of the patterning limitations before relying on it for defense against a critter such as a poisonous snake. As for it's use against larger predators, this isn't a 12 gage handgun and it won't blow an assailant in half, unfortunately there are a lot of customers of these gun with the misconception it will.

As for the 45 LC or 45 ACP, both are very worthy calibers. However, if you compare something like a 625 or 325 NG, to the Judge or the Governor, you'll see why I think it's an uneeded solution. Fact is that you'll be far more likely to carry the 325 NG than the Governor and a gun sitting in a safe at home is pretty useless if you need it somewhere away from home.

I live back in a valley in east Tennessee. The idea of the multi caliber gun like the Governor in indeed intriguing, but for my personal use, I will stick to my S&W 629. Here in these mountains, it isn't uncommon to run into anything from racoons to bears and encountering copperheads and timer rattlers are everyday occurances when you are hiking or walking near my home. I have also run into the occassional odd acting tresspasser on my property. I feel the 629 will handle anything I might encounter. I still may buy one just to plink with. It could turn out to be a fun gun to take to my range.

Some funny stuff here, specially the posts about how a 410 is useless for HD... I wouldn't want to get hit by the wad from the 410 let alone the lead.. I'd be willing to bet no one here would wanna get hit by a 410 either...

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Jack C

Have you seen some of the You Tube videos on the Judge? It patters much better than I had expected.

since s&w is biting on what taurus beat them to.....they have to add a twist by adding the acp cartridge option......

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I'm only allowed 30 characters

Of course, a 629/29 has ammo versatility... .44 Russians, .44 Specials, and .44 Magnums. Of course, you can find some .44 Specials at a gun store - Magnums even at discount stores. Try to find .44 Russians!

So, the nod goes to the Governor... not for .45 Colt or .410 shotgun shells - not a wide range of either will be found outside a gunstore. But - .45 ACPs are everywhere - even still at WallyWorld - 250 230gr FMJ in UMC brass bulk packed ~$85. Hard to beat that on a Sunday afternoon. Of course, my wife complains about my 625JM and my similar, but detuned, ball ammo and it's recoil. That Governor is lighter - it will bounce a bit with ball ammo. Still, I will look one over with open eyes... and, probably, a closed wallet... when my local pusher gets one.

Stainz

My favorite local gun store received its first shipment of Governors last week. I handled one, got to dry fire it SA and DA and must say it is a VAST improvement over the Taurus Judge clan. The same shop has six Judges of various kinds in stock. All; and I mean all of the Judges have trigger and timing issues now. The Governor had a good, typical S&W trigger, nice fit and satin black finish and decent synthetic grips. The six-shot cylinder really isn't much bigger than the Judge's five hole'r. It is very large though.

I may have to get one to play around with at some point. The 45 ACP capability along with .410 bore could be some range fun. No way I'd carry something as large as the Governor for self protection and for home use, I'll stick with my 12 gage pump. Swack-swack

Each time I have a range session with my new Governor I like it even more. This is a wonderfully versatile revolver and great fun to shoot. Both 45 acp and 45 Colt group tightly shooting to the point of aim. The new defensive shotshells from Winchester and Federal would stop any zombie in their tracks. It will be interesting to see a year from now how this model sells, I personally think it's going to do quite well. Smith & Wesson has hit another home run with the Governor.

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At least, they hit the ball into the outfield. My perception of the 410 revolvers comes from what I have seen or heard in my CCW classes. Some folks seem to think one does not need to aim a shotgun, be it a 870 or a 410 revolver and have bought the Judge for that reason, ie. no training required! I have seen the Judge patterned om B27 targets at 10 feet or so. Very impressive with 4's,6's, and even 71/2's. The buckshot, when aimed right is very impressive also, but less margin for error. Slugs are useless in the 410 revolvers as they weigh less that 100 grains, so use the 45 Colt, and now the 45acp in the Governor. I'd rather see a M25 or M26 in 45 Colt/45ACP with a 5" barrel since we've developed the 2 caliber technology. Bob!!

That is so awsome to hear from an actual end user with real feedback, beat the heck out of the BS from the naysayers without a clue..

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Jack C

It is just another example of firearms for morons. This stuff comes and goes in phases.

Remember the movie "Quigley down under"? It spawed an industry of Sharp's replica manufacturers. Now there are 1000's of high-dollar Sharps rifles sitting in safes after their owners discovered that "Quigley" was fiction.

The only good thing I can say about these goofy revolvers is that they are cheaper than a Sharps.

Now that's a special response from a really special pistolaro... I'll be niece... now that we all know just how bright you are.. anything else you can share with us...

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Jack C

Yeah, you must wonder about the nitwits who buy these things. Shoot .45 Colts? I have two better ways to accomplish that - a 625-6 and -7 MG. .45 ACPs? I have a great 625JM. Who needs .410? And Al/Sc frame... why? It's black, too... even the SS cylinder.

The Governor has a tritium Night Sight - fixed rear sight. Really defensive device - not a target gun, for sure. Smallish boot-like grip. The owner's manual has an addendum sheet on the Governor - it says to look on the barrel for the caliber requirement. That's where you'll find the '.45 Colt .45 ACP .410 2 1/2"'. Ohhh, and there is an IL keyhole above the cylinder release. Decent DA trigger, too. The rubber grip is smallish - barely 'enough' for my hands. I wonder what size grips fit it? Hmmmmm. The box end label is neat: Model: GOV (The model number over the s/ under the yoke of the revolver is 'GOV', too!) SKU: 162410.

I guess you figured it out.... I'm a nitwit, too. I found a new gunstore this AM - closer to me than my normal 'pusher'. I stopped in - he got five Friday - sold one, put one on layaway, and sold one this AM - to a nitwit - me. I finally had to go back there for .410 ammo - my range's store and WallyWorld alike had Federal .410 Handgun ammo - in 3" only! I have some homebrew .45 Colt, .45 ACP, and even some .45 Schofield to try - no need to bring any .45 Auto Rim, that vestige of a cylinder ring would not allow enough clearance. I did get some #6 2.5" .410 and Winchester 2.5" .410 self defense ammo. Range trip Tuesday - more later. Nitwit out!

Stainz

PS My reading comprehension seems lacking... or I didn't read every post. I see where I am really a 'moron' - not a nitwit. Gee... that seems judgemental...

[QUOTE=Stainz;135994843]Yeah, you must wonder about the nitwits who buy these things. Shoot .45 Colts? I have two better ways to accomplish that - a 625-6 and -7 MG. .45 ACPs? I have a great 625JM. Who needs .410? And Al/Sc frame... why? It's black, too... even the SS cylinder.

there is an IL keyhole above the cylinder release.
QUOTE]

Another nitwit here. Yup I got one of them Governors today also.

Yes I have 45 LC, 45 ACP, 10mm, 40 S&W, 44 mag and 357 mag all in revolvers. As in Model 25's, 625's, 610's, 629's, 60's, 66's, and 686's in many different barrel lenghts from 2.5 thru 8.375 inches. I like the 3 and 5 inch ones best. I have a 25 and a 625 that can shoot 45 LC and 45 ACP thanks to Pinnacle High Performances.

Oh, I hate the IL locks and this will be my first, my second is a 686-8 7 shot 5 inch. All others NO LOCK.

I would have really liked to have a Governor all in stainless steel without the lock. Maybe someday.

I wanted to try a three caliber gun that S&W actually makes and hopefully will work as good as the older guns that I have. So I bought one.

I have handled the Judge and didn't like the feel, the Governor feels good. Nuff said.

Thanks for your honest assessment, Stainz. This moron will probably be buying one too. I always wanted a revolver that shoots 45 Colt, 45 ACP, and 410 made by a GOOD arms manufacturer.

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Inconsistently consistent

Monday saw a rather fast delivery from S&W Accessories - SKU #199080000 ~$75 w s/h. It was a 'RH Tan Speed Scabbard S&W Governor' - they already had a holster for the 'nitwit/moron' revolver! It's a thumblatch-less, but very secure, leather RH forward tilt holster with one set of belt holes. I'll get a picture as soon as I can. Here is last week's picture - with the ammo I shot on last Tuesday & Thursday range trips:



No, it won't make every range trip - it really isn't a fun revolver. I put my 63, 64, 617, 625JM, & 627's in that category. It may just be the ideal HD revolver, however... especially if you have an eclectic mix of ammo calibers!

Stainz

PS You bet the S&W/Hogue .500 Magnum grips fit - and really help with the recoil!

Hi, I was in my local gun shop when they were unpacking two brand new Governors and bought one just for the hell of it. It looked and felt good even though it was a (handful at 5lb's) I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but will probably go next Tuesday. I did discover the six round moon clip for the 45 acp's is very, very dificult to load and next to impossible to retrieve from the clip. I'll be getting in touch with SW for some advice or perhaps a replacement. The G shop had a tool desighed for removing shells from moon clips and it wouldn't fit......so we'll see how that works out.
The gun is made very well and I can't wait to put a CT on it.
As for utility...well.... that remains to be seen. ha I know it's going to be a hoot to mess around with (plinking) and probably wouldn't make a bad HD weapon.
I'll guve you all a followup range report about the 45 acp's and some 410's. I don't like the cowboy's because they're sooooo damn dirty.
Later,
JimK

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SW:60 Pro,442, GOV, CS9, 3913T

Congrats, good to hear you got one, looking forward to one myself. As for the moon clips, if you haven't used them before they are nasty to load and nasty to unload unless you have the correct tool for it. I have the unloading tool, came with my Thunder Ranch 325, it works great, but there is a tool for loading, haven't gotten one of those yet. Might be the tool at the shop was the wrong one..

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Jack C

If you have a Governor that weighs 5 lb, something is wrong - they weigh <2 lb empty (29.6 oz). The best demooner for me is the Brownell's nutdrver style at ~$15. It holds all six empties you've just stripped in the hollow tube, too - handy while you look for a bag/box to stow them in. I tried the scissors demooners - they lasted a week before I broke them - simpler works better! The six slot moonclips are from Ranch Products - $35/100 shipped. They are persnickety - seemingly likes Starline brass the best, if you reload - but the Remington brass loads well by hand, too. The cartridge should rotate freely in the clip. Some brass is just too tight. The $85box of 250 rounds of ball ammo from UMC at WallyWorld works fine. Congratulations!

Stainz

dla, calling people "morons" just because they purchase something you don't like is not the sign of a wise, thoughtful person. I don't really like the .410 revolvers either, but your lack of respect for fellow forum members is a shame, and someone in Admin should address it.

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You need guns- buy more guns!

I do not think the Governor is the ideal do all, but it comes it comes pretty close. Here is why I purchased mine: my wife and I own two 45 autos, two 45 colt single actions and two 45 colt lever guns. There is always 45 ammo in either vehicle and everywhere around the house. The gun is shorter than my Bearcat and will perform well against anything I may cross when I'm in the woods, as well as being pretty light to pack.

Just my 2 cents,

Barbarosa

My Governor was my first firearms purchase. I got it because I've always liked S&W revolvers, it fit my hand perfectly, and I thought I'd enjoy trying out all the different kinds of rounds and shells it could fire. I intended to use it mostly for target practice, and to keep as a HD weapon.
I had a lot of fun at the range with it for a few months. It was nice that it always got a lot of attention. People always wanted to try it out, ask me questions and such. It was fun to fire .45ACP out of it. The .45LC had too big a kick for me to enjoy shooting a whole lot of it. Yes, I'm a wimp. It's just a very light revolver, and you're going to feel the recoil. I shot #4 and 000 shells through it. That also kicked pretty hard.
Accuracy is definitely an issue. I have a wife and two kids in a medium sized home to defend. I have to think practically about what I'm willing to fire inside my house, with them around. The .45LC is a definite man-stopper, but it's just too powerful. I'd hate for it to go through a wall. The #4 shot sprays bbs all over the place. I wouldn't worry about it going through a wall, but I'd hit a lot of stuff that I wasn't trying to hit. Also, the penetration is not good at any kind of normal in-house distance. I'd have to be so close to a BG that I'm basically punching his head off. I'd rather not have to rush or sneak up on an intruder. The 000 would probably be what I'd use, if I didn't have the .45ACP.
But .45ACP is easy to buy and pretty cheap. A .45 ACP JHP round isn't likely to go through an attacker and through the wall behind him, but it'll certainly make him sorry for coming in uninvited. I ended up using .45ACP almost exclusively, once I was done blowing a ton of money on trying out different kinds of ammo. In the end, it came down to comfort of use and financial considerations.
They say you should always train as you fight, but in this case, I'll have to fight as I train. It makes no sense to spend all my time getting used to firing .45ACP in practice and then think I might use the 000 shot against a BG.
Take away the ability to shoot shot shells, and you've got a .45ACP snub-nose revolver with a cylinder that's way too long. Why not just throw down a little extra money and get a revolver that shoots the same ammo more accurately?
Well, because my hand is a little too small for an N frame. The K frame grip on the Gov was just perfect for me. I'm going to lose a tiny bit on accuracy for that reason, firing in DA. SA, though, fits me just fine.
It kind of broke my heart to sell my Governor. I had grown to love it. The weather hasn't been good enough for me to take the 625PC to the range, yet. I'm hoping I'll love the 625 even more, eventually.
I did replace the red, natural and blue wooden grip with a nice Hogue rubber grip. There wasn't much difference in how much of my finger I could get on the trigger while keeping my wrist straight, but the Hogue grips certainly look and feel MUCH better.
I'll let you guys know how I'm liking the 625 after a few days at the range.

Most experienced shooters would gently suggest that you not waste your hard-earned $ on it.

I love how the people who never owned or shot one knows the most about it. LoL.
I own one and love it. Its accurate, versitle, and one best revolvers on the market plain and simple.
I have a Galco holster and you would never know I was carrrying it.
Its more compact than a Judge as it shoots a 2.5 inch shell and you wouldnt wanna be standing in my hallway at 2am cause I'm not going to miss.
My suggestion is you can't go wrong buying one and this coming through a owner thats ran several boxes of shells through it in all 3 configurations.

Sportsman423, did you read my review/experiences? I'll try to sum up my impression, from several months of ownership:

Pros:
Medium-smallish grip fits my hand well.
Fun to take to the range because of the attention it gets and the different kinds of rounds it can fire.
Shoots .45ACP in moonclips. (Why don't they make more revolvers that fire automatic rounds in moonclips?)

Cons:
Shot shells fired through a rifled, 2-3/4in barrel are not reliably accurate and penetrative enough for defensive purposes.
Therefore, every compromise made in order for the weapon to be able to fire shot shells is really an unjustified loss to accuracy.
One range that I called said they didn't allow the Judge or the Governor on their range because the pellets strike other shooters' targets, and over time, destroy the wooden frames on the targets.

Someone made a thread wishing that they made a revolver that fired .45LC and .45ACP in moonclips, but without the ability to fire shot shells. This would allow for excellent flexibility, make a nice hunting pistol as well as HD and SD pistol, and have greater accuracy over a Governor. If they made such a revolver on a K frame, I would definitely buy it.

I didn't really want to sell my Governor, especially as it was my first firearms purchase. However, I couldn't afford the 625PC without selling the Gov.

I finally fired the 625PC yesterday afternoon. It was beautiful! It's much smoother than the Governor, and there's much less recoil. I fired some Hornady 185gr JHP at some soda cans. The destruction wrought upon that hapless aluminum was truly awesome. This is definitely a revolver I'll keep to hand down to my kids one day.

Your results are different from mine. Accuracy of the Gov has been outstanding with Federal 000 and 45LC. So good is the accuracy, if you put a $20.00 bill up at 20 yards, I'll hit it and take it every time. The penetration argument doesn't hold up either. I have shot real live farm animals and the results were devastating. Stick with the ammo designed for the shot pistol and you dont have a problem. There is a misconception of this gun is that it performs like a long gun 12 gauge with #4 shot where you get a 18" shot pattern. A pistol will never be that. Its a hybrid you must aim like any other pistol. I am a handgun hunter, been to Gunsite 2 times, and shot IPSC competitively for 8 years. I am not a newbie that lacks the skills to get the job done with any conventional handgun. I feel just as well armed with the Gov as I do with my 1911 and maybe even better armed with the Gov in the woods. I am not sure why there is such a irrational predigest spread by the keyboard commandos against the shot pistol?? Perhaps too many new shooters are buying them and using them incorrectly at the range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0

If I had to get into a gunfight with someone, at a set distance of 10 yards, and I had eye protection and my 625, and the other guy had eye protection and a Governor loaded with birdshot, I wouldn't be concerned for my safety.
See hickok45's video on the Judge for a demonstration. He couldn't pierce a piece of aluminum duct work with .410 birdshot from 3 yards.

Correction -- he did get one pellet of #4 to pierce the aluminum at 3 yards. Still, I'd put on a leather jacket and some heavy jeans and probably be just fine at 10 yards, so long as my opponent didn't get lucky and put an eye out.

I do think the Governor would be a great weapon for defense against car-jacking or rape. Like I said above, at extreme close range, it would be like punching someone's head into a fine, red mist.

I just don't want to be limited to that sort of range.

I will admit I am a 000buck and 45lc guy in these pistols. I would be that way in a 410 rifle. Thats really all I carry with the exception of 4shot for snakes when I am running the chainsaw. I did kill squirrels pretty easy with #4 shot at 15 yards but other than extremely close range, bird shot is too limiting for my needs other than the use as a non lethal solution for animals on my property. With the Federal 000buck 4 36caliber balls hitting exactly the same time in the size of a softball at 20 yards is pretty devastating. The energy transfer is outstanding.

I agree with you, there, TheMystro. The .45LC and 000 buckshot are devastating. They're just too expensive for me to fire off a hundred of them on a day at the range. I can get 50 rounds of Winchester white box ACP for a little over $30, though.

The LC would present problems with over-penetration, even in the rare and expensive JHP. The 000 or 00 buck might not, but it's just more expensive than ACP. The ACP in JHP, though, would put a horrid hole in a person without going through the wall behind him. I have to fight as I train and train as I fight, so the Governor really isn't useful to me (not being a hunter of small game or someone who carries in public) as anything other than a gun that fires .45ACP. As a gun that fires .45ACP, the 625 is better.

Absolutely. If thats all you are looking to shoot, you cant beat the 625. The Gov is a 000buck/45lc pistol with the "oh by the way" it also shoots 45acp just for the fun of it. Its way too big of a gun to just shoot 45acp.

The Gov's intimidation factor is much higher than my Judge. That sinister flat black duo silver barrel that accentuates the size of the bullet has movie action hero all over it.

No argument, there. I looked in the mirror with it and nearly pooped my pants!

How close is most self defense encounters?

I think the Governor is quite a step over the Taurus.
Moonclips can be very efficient, the ones for my 640 Pro in .357 are pretty easy to use and don't bend too easy.
Comparing Smith and Taurus is like comparing a Glock and an ISSC.
It may look similar but it is far from being the same gun.

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27-2, 66-1, 640 Pro, 10-5

Most are from 3-30feet. That's why 7yards is the training standard. In the woods, you should be able to hit out to 25 yards for furry threats.

I live in the part of Pa that holds some of the top world record black bears. 400-600lbs are common around my house. I have used 9shot in my Judge to move them along and discourage them from getting too close.
This is big Pa 869lbs black bear

This is a 600lbs black bear to compare to.

So to say the Governor is more than adequate at that range would be spot on? and to say that a "Night" situation the option of having buckshot would be a great advantage. Also the fact that I can cover a silhouette at bout 10 -15 yards with buckshot would work in my favor then and after lights go on I might have to reach out a lil more with the .45.... Perfect personal defense gun for me. Much more distance than that and I am using a rifle lol.
By the way I looked up ballistic gel test and want to say one of the bird shot (#7 or #9) over penatrated the gel. I have to look again to find the link. Hate to even mention it without posting the link. So it would go deep enough.
Bad guy would'nt be to much a immediate threat in laws eyes if you are shooting at someone 100ft away.

The Gov with #4 would be great as a car jacking load. It might not kill the thug out of your window but it will remove his face. Federal 000 buck is the lethal shot load for this gun. The PDX1 is also good. The 45LC is a legendary man stopper at any distance especially with a modern hollow point.
Even the mighty 12gage has its limitations. #6 shot at 50 hards will piss you off but 10 yards will blow a hole through you. Then there is the argument that if you engage a threat too far out, you could be legally attacked by some liberal prosecutor. I shoot to kill so 000buck and 45lc Silvertips are loaded in my cylinder. I play in the woods with 4-9 shot.

Owning both, I can tell you they are. At the time I was buying, there wasn't a S&W option. Setting a side the fit and finish, trigger, etc.... The shooting performance is even better with the Gov.