S&W fixed sight revolver here (Model 22-4).

Gun is shooting ~2" to the right of the POA @ 15 yards (and I'm a right handed shooter so any flinching on my part tends to throw rounds to the left)

To fix this, there are three solutions that come to mind:

1)rotate bbl to move front sight slightly to the right

2)have a gunsmith install a dovetail front sight

3)have a gunsmith mill out the left side of the sight channel on the top strap.

I don't particulary like option #1 b/c I know a crooked front sight will bother me. However, it's the easiest fix and sounds like something I could even try to throw back @ S&W as a warranty issue.

Thoughts?

Aim approximately 2" to the left?

Sorry couldn't resist.

Before you do anything to it, have another experienced shooter try it. It is amazing how much nothing more than how you grip a fixed-sight gun can affect your shooting. I found long ago that any service-grip S&W revolver could be "fixed" windage-wise for me by installing a Tyler T-grip; much easier for me than the alternative fix, which was reminding myself every time to grip the gun in a way that was not natural for me.

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Pisgah

I just went through the same problem you are having except with another make of revolver.What I would do is first shoot it,shoot it,shoot it and then shoot it some more.In my particular case as I shot the gun it slowly began to approach center hits.Also if you reload try some other loads and bullet weights.I have owned revolvers that will shoot most loads to one side but a particular load/bullet weight would shoot to the center.

You move the REAR sight in the direction you want the group to move, Front sight moves OPPOSITE. Nick

Why NOT to buy a fixed sight gun.........

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Keep in mind what fixed-sight handguns were made for. They were never intended to be Target shooters. Point blank carry gun? Perfect. For that application, you don't need nor want things like huge adjustable sights to snag on the way out. You didn't mention barrel length or ammunition utilized but 2" at 45 feet is pretty acceptable shooting IMO. Couple more feet and you should have a rifle in your hands. H.

The easiest and cheapest fix is to thin the front sight on the left side. Won't take much. AND........can be easily replaced.

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S&W Accumulator

Beat me to it.

My wife's 3 inch Ruger SP-101 hits nearly eight inches to the left of point of aim at 25 feet. I though it was her fault until I shot it. Also let a very experienced IPSC shooter try it and he hit way left too. We then tried three different sets of grips to no avail. Groups tightened with the better grips but didn't move toward the center. Different ammo just changed the vertical POI. I gave up and ordered Crimson Trace Laser Grips for it today, as I have too much invested in the gun to dump it.

si--------

Thanks fellas. Thinning the front sight sounds like the ticket!

2 inches at 15 yards??? in the real world, that is a miniscule deviation. i really don't think i would permanently alter the gun.

Before thinning the blade, try painting the right side/edge of the front sight with whiteout. Personally though, I agree that 2" at 45 feet is nothing to worry about on a fixed sight gun.
John

Neither would I, unless I intended to use it for hunting squirrels in tall timber. Although I don't recognize that model # offhand, it may be unlikely that it will become a collector piece anytime soon, and maybe never. But even so, any detectable alteration to the original sights would probably have a negative affect on it's future value even if it's later restored as near to the original configuration as practical from a monetary standpoint. And in the final analysis, all for very little or no gain in real world practicality.

In my not-so-humble-opinion any fixed sight handgun that will put repeatable 5-shot 2" groups within 2'' of POA @ 15 yds is performing within it's design envelope. That 2" off POA should translate into approximately 3" off POA @ 25 yds, which aint all bad unless you're a gun rag writer with a hyper-inflated perception of your marksmanship skills. I strongly suspect that actual 3" or 4" groups at a range often become 1" or 1-1/4" groups in the writer's article if he thinks that a little white fib may earn him ownership of the well prepared sample gun the manufacturer loaned out to him.

Before we get carried away with wittleing on the front sight, try adjusting your grip.

On Pistols/Revolvers you can change the windage of the gun by sticking your finger further into or out of the trigger guard. An example if you are shooting right and want to go left, move your finger further on the trigger. If you are shooting left and want to go right, pull it out a bit.

I recall hearing about a practice that was used by the factory...when they had a fixed sight revolver that needed adjusting, they whacked it with a babbit bar right where the barrel threads into the frame...maybe one of our tenured S&W vets will chime in here and fully describe the process...I think that it very slightly tweaks the frame and 'adjusts' the POI.

Hope that helps...and don't try that at home (without professional guidance).

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On the Oak Savannah

Nick, you missed the part about FIXED SIGHTS on his gun.....

You can't MOVE anything...........

It is a little more complicated than this, but it does tweak the frame slightly. It even works on adjustable sight guns to get the rear blade centered instead of way off to one side.

I sent the OP a PM last night because every time I have posted how it is done by the factory everyone wants to jump in and yell about how this would ruin the frame! As a result I rarely say anything as no one seems to understand that you learn by listening, not talking. Like I told one of the know-it-alls a while back, he better call the factory and tell them they are ruining a lot of guns!!!

@Alk8944--I really appreciated your insight and it saved me a whole bunch of bother. It's off to S&W this week and we'll see what they can do. Thanks again

After you determine that it is the gun and not the shooter, try moving your trigger finger in to the left a tad. If you are shooting to the right pull your trigger finger out to the right some.

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Always Stay Strong!

Umm - aim to the left. Slim the front sight. Shave the rear sight. I'd like to see how other shooters do with it. I had a gun that would hit 12in from the aiming point. I knocked the rear sight over in the dovetail and cured that. I have another with a loose front sight. My low left is now low center. But what you have is not bad to begin with.

13-4 3in round butt; 10-8 3in round butt; 65-3 3in round butt. Three of my favorite guns to travel with, all have CTC LG-306 lasergrips, all three hit right on the litlle red dot.

I'd turn the barrel. Its not too hard to do. I'm going to turn the barrel on my 58 soon. Its shooting 2.5" left at 25 yards. 1-2 inch groups but left.

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Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

I had a 4" Model 10 that shot about 6" left at 20 yds. I filed about half the width(right side, looking from the rear)of front sight off. That brought it to center. Essentially, that's moving the front sight left. I've owned many fixed sight models, and this is the only one I've had to do this to. It was a nickel, pencil barrel.

I had the front sight of my Model 66 ground off because I couldn't stand the red plastic insert. I had a new sight dovetailed in place. It works perfectly as long as you have a front sight base with enough room for a dovetail cut. Life is too short to live with a front sight that you can't tolerate.

Dave Sinko

All good gouge. I too have a Model 22-4 that shoots 3/4 to 7/8 inch to the left. Not much to worry about. I've found that the fixed sight revolvers are very much ammo sensitive.

Case in point: I had a Model 21-4 that shot 240gr bullets 3-4 inches to the left consistently. I'm a good shooter, so I shoot 12 shot groups to verify that that it is grouping to the left.

I sent the gun back to S&W (first time of three) to have them clock the barrel. When I got it back it grouped about 1-inch to the left with the same ammunition. When I switched to 180gr Hornady XTPs the group was perfectly centered, albeit a bit high.

My local gunsmith told me that the heavier bullets may shoot to the left, due to the elevated torsional forces imparted on the bullet. I don't know about that, but it sounds plausible, as lighter bullets are shorter. Again, not completely sold on the idea, but I do believe that the fixed sight guns can be very accurate, provided the right ammunition is used. They are designed as fighting handguns and are meant to be used with the load that most approximates the hold of the owner.

My 22-4 is very accurate, but shoots 230gr bullets a tad to the left. I would hazard a guess that 185gr bullets would shoot more to the sights. I'll find out shortly.

Good thread. I'm a huge fan of the Models 21-4 and 22-4. They are neat fighting tools that are nearly indestructible and hark back to a period of when these type of revolvers were the ubiquitous tools of the trade.

Just my paltry $.02 worth of observations...

When my fixed sight revolvers shoot to the right, I just hit myself on the left side of my head with a rubber hammer until it shoots straight.

An old thread but a timeless issue. Almost all handguns are known to shoot higher or lower depending on the weight and velocity of the bullet being fired. A faster/lighter bullet spends less time in the barrel, so there's less time for the muzzle to rise before the bullet gets out and is no longer affected by where the barrel is pointing, and results in a lower POI.

If the way a gun is gripped will also produce side to side torque as well as muzzle rise after ignition, the same principle will apply to the bullet's windage as to elevation. Hence the advice - fiddle with ammunition first, before fiddling with the machinery.

Changing the powder charge can also influence windage a bit, in addition to elevation changes. I've been doing some 100yd cast bullet bench testing for the new IHMSA dedicated 629s over the past couple of weeks and have had to accommodate quite a bit of windage variation with different loads, not to mention bullet weights. Changing bullet styles within a load/weight combo doesn't seem to have much affect on R-L, though.

But as noted above, it's usually more a matter of grip. "Trigger drift" should not be a factor! Not saying it won't be, esp. DA shooting, but that's a failure of consistency in technique. I've found that "mysterious" windage changes on adjustable sight guns are usually technique related, but if you've had changes in grip strength or even stance, then it could be those factors as well. Anymore, I try to resist sight changes with known loads as much as possible! Usually end up back where I started, even if it takes a few more range sessions. (Practice only, generally no time to sort "user dramas" during a match.)

Most annoying lack of regulation of sights for me in faxed sight revolvers are 4" HB Model 10s and 65s. They all seem to shoot not only low but right when using 148gr wadcutters. Annoying because the groups are stupid small (when I'm doing my part), but out of the black bull at 25yards. 158s shoot where they look but can't get as accurate results. Would have guess a light barreled .44 or .45 would be even more prone to such tendencies.

Good old thread....

For me, shooting by feel and experience, including compensating for POI not quite coinciding with POA.....is the fun of fixed-sighted guns. It's a bit of a challenge - and I enjoy that.

Of course, if the gun in question shoots WAY off, say 8" at 10 yards, I would consider that TOO much of a challenge. But, a couple of inches I don't mind.

For me, windage is more important than elevation. I find compensating for elevation easy and it seems to come naturally. Windage, not so much.

With a lot of J Frames, and factory grips, I will shoot left. But put the Pachmayer compact rubber on it and I will shoot center. I'm afraid I am going to have to have someone build me a set of grips in nice wood but based on the Pachmayer dimensions.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

This in another diagnosis tool that you may find useful.
In my experience, these issues are usually shooter caused.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

OR, alternatively...

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Yep. I'm THAT guy. ;)

Before you do ANYTHING, consider that the "adjustment" you make may not be correct if you change loads.

If a right handed shooter jerks the trigger... it will cause his firearm to shoot to the Right... not the Left....try doing some dry firing with snap caps & watch where your muzzle goes when you jerk the trigger... I suspect that the OP is jerking it harder than he thinks he does... just my opinion based on what I've seen in the past... if you have a set of Crimson Trace grips or another brand of laser on your handgun... dry firing the pistol will will bear me out.....just bring up the gun, pull the trigger as you normally do ,see where the the red dot.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Shoot faster until you are shooting a six-inch group. At seven yards. The six inch group will cover the center of the target. Seriously. This is perfect for self defense.

PD Armorers were taught this also... though I think yours are within bad perp tollerances.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs