Small Groups With S&W Stubbies?

[NiklasP]

Hello!

I am considering buying another S&W revolver for multiple uses. At the moment I am focusing on J-frames like 438, etc., that have both a shrouded hammer and also ability to be fired SA. This would be a pocket carry gun that could become a "hunting" gun in situations where a heavier, longer-barreled revolver, etc. would not be carried. Normal carry load expected to be something like Buffalo Bore's FBI +P 158 grain SWC-HP. Revolver must be capable of producing small enough groups for small game, perhaps with HBWC, DEWC or SWC loads. I am a reloader with 50+ years experience finding small grouping, yet powerful loads, mostly for hunting. Carrying separate "hunting" loads is accepted.

SO, my question is, how small groups, all 5 chambers, can I expect, SA shooting from solid, "hunting" rests, from a S&W stubbie? Distance expected to generally be 25-35 yards or less, but shots out to 75+ yards may be taken.

Thanks,
Niklas

[Harrison]

The answer to your question depends on two major variables and one minor. 1: how good a shot are you? 2: how good is the individual pistol/sights? 3: how good is the ammo?

[Pisgah]

Generally speaking, I would say a J-frame snub has as good inherent accuracy as any other S&W revolver. Small size and short sight radius are the main challenges for the shooter, not any lack of inherent accuracy.

[bennettfam]

Of course a J-frame is suited for shooting small groups. If you plan to shoot large groups go with a high-cap semi-auto, otherwise bad guy #6 will get away.

[InTheWoods]

Trying to make a small game gun out of a snub-nose Smith is a challenge. The gun can do it, but it is really tough for even a good shot to make it do it. Especially at the ranges you describe and the 'small size' of 'small game.' And even if you are superbly talented enough to make tiny groups with it at 50 yards, you face the challange of having your groups coincide with your aiming point. You generally have fixed sights that will be regulated for only some loads you want to shoot. And while they may be regulated well enough to hit a man at 20 yards, they may not be anywhere near close enough to hit a rabbit at 40.

Now, if you move to a j-frame with a 3 inch barrel AND adjustable sights, everything changes dramatically. You get a slightly longer sight radius AND sights you adjust exactly to your hunting loads. You can leave the setting the same for your defensive loads, as your potential defensive target will be MUCH closer and MUCH larger. This gun will still be light and handy, but still quite usable for both purposes you need it for.

We have multiple snubbies in our house and one three-inch model 60-15. When I go to the field or woods, it is the 3-inch gun that goes with me. I easily sighted it in at 50 yards.

[Dragon88]

Hickok45 hits an 80 yard gong with a 642 in this video (jump to 7:18). I think J-frames are capable of some very impressive shooting, with the right ammo and shooter.

‪642 S&W .38 Special (Airweight J frame)‬‏ - YouTube

[kraigwy]

15 shots as fast as I could load and pull the trigger, at 15 yards, standing, with my 642.

150 grn SWC (Lyman #358477) w/4.5 grns of unique

[ContinentalOp]

Originally Posted by kraigwy

15 shots as fast as I could load and pull the trigger, at 15 yards, standing, with my 642.

150 grn SWC (Lyman #358477) w/4.5 grns of unique

Very nicely done. J-frames are definitely capable of good accuracy.

I don't consider myself much of a marksman, but I'm particularly proud of this target I shot with my 642. 25 rounds of 130gr PMC FMJ at 10 yards, fired in 5-shot strings as quickly as I could maintain a decent sight picture, standing, two-hand hold. These were the first 25 rounds fired that session, and it had been 6 weeks since the last time I did any live fire practice.

[NiklasP]

Thanks for replies!

Should I be seriously using revolver for small game hunting, I have a selection of tight-grouping .357s, including one S&W M60 with 5-inch barrel (my common, secondary gun when hunting), as well as one 22 MRF revolver. I also have two fixed sights revolvers that shoot almost as small groups, to POA, thanks to excellent construction and careful load development.

Remember, I would be carrying a short-barreled J-frame into the field when small game hunting is by no means the primary reason to be out there. Compact, light and in a pocket are higher priority and the primary reasons for getting a 438, etc. -- otherwise, my M60 with 5-inch barrel or 22 MRF revolver or an 8mm, fixed sight revolver, have this use covered.

Yes, I realize that short-barreled J-frames, especially with small grips, are a real challenge to shoot small groups with, especially in field conditions. It is likely that when using a S&W 438, for example, in outdoor conditions, I will put a set of Pachmayr Gripper grips on it, simply for the additional control they provide -- they make a major difference in group size and precise shot placement with my M60.

Any one have personal experience shooting J-frames with 2,0 inch barrels at paper at 20-40 yards, trying for smallest groups with select ammo? Or know someone that has. Some of Gun Blast writer's reviews use Random Rest to get some surprisingly small groups from short barreled revolvers, so, I have hope.

Thanks again,
Niklas

[luis]

You might want to check with your state wildlife department. Some states require a minimum barrel length and / or caliber.

[Joe in SC]

If you plan on staying out a day or two and only have a snub 2 inch revolver you'd better plan on going to sleep hungry if you don't have some line and a hook. Better yet take some PB&J sandwiches with you.

[InTheWoods]

While those groups shown by posters are great, they are by no means of the catagory needed for small game shooting. Small game is small, and hitting the chest or head of a squirrel at 40 yards is quite challenge, as the OP seems to be quite aware off.

I live in the woods, am a better than average handgun shot, shoot almost daily, and hunt frequently with a handgun. Living off the woods on small game with a any handgun would be quite frustrating. I am glad I also own RIFLES!! Don't get me wrong, I kill my fair share of stuff with a handgun, but relying on it for food from small game could result in a lot of weight loss. I have found deer much easier to hit with a revolver! If the reason for carrying this snub-nosed handgun afield (aside from personal protection) is for entertainment purposes, no problem. The squirrels will get a kick out of it! And you just never know, a couple of squirrels might be sorry they laughed at you. But the odds are long.

[Sportsterguy]

Originally Posted by InTheWoods

Trying to make a small game gun out of a snub-nose Smith is a challenge. The gun can do it, but it is really tough for even a good shot to make it do it. Especially at the ranges you describe and the 'small size' of 'small game.' And even if you are superbly talented enough to make tiny groups with it at 50 yards, you face the challange of having your groups coincide with your aiming point. You generally have fixed sights that will be regulated for only some loads you want to shoot. And while they may be regulated well enough to hit a man at 20 yards, they may not be anywhere near close enough to hit a rabbit at 40.

Now, if you move to a j-frame with a 3 inch barrel AND adjustable sights, everything changes dramatically. You get a slightly longer sight radius AND sights you adjust exactly to your hunting loads. You can leave the setting the same for your defensive loads, as your potential defensive target will be MUCH closer and MUCH larger. This gun will still be light and handy, but still quite usable for both purposes you need it for.

We have multiple snubbies in our house and one three-inch model 60-15. When I go to the field or woods, it is the 3-inch gun that goes with me. I easily sighted it in at 50 yards.

Excellent advice. I can shoot my 34 snub much more accurately than my non sighted model 36 at 25 yards.

[redbos]

I pocket carry a 642 and it is what it is... I like to think of it as a last ditch survival type gun, all of my other S&W's are pre lock and are not carry guns. I carry the 642 in the summer and my Glock 21 .45 with my 642 all the rest of the year..........

[WyoStillhunter]

InTheWoods,

I expect you have more experience to bring to bear on the question in you OP than most of us and certainly more than me.

Although reasonable proficient with my M36 as a defensive weapon, a la targets posted by others above, on small game I would consider distances more appropriately measured in feet rather than yards. Without a major expense in time and ammo, 25 yards is way beyond my small game accuracy with the Chief Special.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[NiklasP]

OK, guess I will just have to get my own 438 or what ever and find out for my self how well I can shoot it from solid rests and other shooting stances typical of small game hunting in mountains.

Most common shots at edible critters are grouse sitting on tree branch, maybe 10 or less paces away -- all my current revolvers are capable of "minute-of-grouse head" groups at that distance. That means all 5-6 shots in one ragged hole. We practice on empty shotgun hulls, with 3+ hits per 5-6 shots typical, one-handed, unsupported shooting. That includes SA shooting of M60 with 5-inch barrel, Pachmayr Gripper grips and HBWC loads at 800 fps. Have this hopefully accurate expectation that such HBWC loads will give similarily small groups from 2,0 inch barrels.

Note that a 438, etc. would be a multipurpose revolver, with "normal" concealed carry in populated areas being the primary use. Use against feral dogs and rabid critters is another reason to carry in backcountry, although I see almost no feral dogs where I normally roam and rabid critters are seldom aggressive. Curious pumas and coyotes are more common and have never been a serious threat in the decades I have been roaming these kinds of areas, although they can provide some memorable experiences. Signaling in event of accident or medical emergency is another consideration. We mostly travel in high mountain areas not suited to growing drugs.

InTheWood's experience seems similar to mine decades ago. In my case, we quit using small game rifles and only kept .22LR pistols at hand, often inexpensive "target" pistols. Did not reduce number of dead, edible critters much -- did substantially increase the care needed to make 1-shot kills. In no case were we dependent on small game for food.

Normal backwoods use of 438, etc. would be on backcountry day hikes or day ski tours into areas not normally traveled. Often there is a surprising amount of wildlife in these areas, which are sometimes only a few-several hundred meters from well traveled paths.

Thanks again,
Niklas

[photoman]

I've never done any ransom rest shooting with a J frame and am not aware of any tests online (unfortunately). I would dare say, the 438 will have excellent ~mechanical~ accuracy. It wouldn't surprise me to see 2-3" groups at 25 yards in a Ransom rest.

[NiklasP]

Here is reference to GunBlast review of S&W Night Guard series, giving numerous results of firing these revolvers via Ransom Rest at 25 yards. As best I can tell, each of these revolvers has 2,5 inch barrel. They do have better sights and grips giving better control than on most J-frames. Average group size is somewhat larger than 2,0 inches.

http://www.gunblast.com/SW-Nightguards.htm

Enjoy,
Niklas

[NiklasP]

Browsing GunBroker I find that S&W M638 also was made with 2,5 inch barrel, 16 oz empty and 7,0 inches long, fixed sights, DA and SA, 38 SPL+P. Seems like as good a fit to my "needs" as I could find. Pachmayr Gripper grips for "percision" SA shooting and factory boot grips for DA CC use, plus careful load development, seems promising. Not much different to shoot than my M60 with 5,0 inch barrel.

Niklas

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by InTheWoods

Trying to make a small game gun out of a snub-nose Smith is a challenge. The gun can do it, but it is really tough for even a good shot to make it do it. Especially at the ranges you describe and the 'small size' of 'small game.' And even if you are superbly talented enough to make tiny groups with it at 50 yards, you face the challange of having your groups coincide with your aiming point. You generally have fixed sights that will be regulated for only some loads you want to shoot. And while they may be regulated well enough to hit a man at 20 yards, they may not be anywhere near close enough to hit a rabbit at 40.

Now, if you move to a j-frame with a 3 inch barrel AND adjustable sights, everything changes dramatically. You get a slightly longer sight radius AND sights you adjust exactly to your hunting loads. You can leave the setting the same for your defensive loads, as your potential defensive target will be MUCH closer and MUCH larger. This gun will still be light and handy, but still quite usable for both purposes you need it for.

We have multiple snubbies in our house and one three-inch model 60-15. When I go to the field or woods, it is the 3-inch gun that goes with me. I easily sighted it in at 50 yards.

I agree with InTheWoods. For your needs a 3" J frame w/ adjustable sights would be perfect.....

[NiklasP]

one eye joe,

IF I were getting a 357 Mag, I would want adjustable rear sight, and I have that on all my 357s. There is such a wide range of loads that can be used in 357 Mag, from 148 grain HBWC at 800 fps to 180 grain bullets at 1200 fps, that adjustable sights are essential. I avoid ligher bullets, BTW.

However, I don't expect to be developing more than two loads for this J-frame stubbie I am thinking about, it will be rated for 38 Spl +P. It might be only one load. IF two, one will likely be the tightest grouping HBWC load I can develop, say at 800 fps, while the other could easily be a 158 grain SWC at 1000 fps. Could easily be that a 30 yard zero with the HBWC will be easily achieved and would result in the 158 grainers hitting a bit higher, which could be perfect (so long as windage is same. Actually, I might even end up with a single load, for example, a Hornady 148 grain HBWC at 900-950 fps (apparently, these HBWC are made of hard enough lead alloy that they keep their skirts on at these higher velocities). The 158 grain SWC at 900+fps could easily give suitably small, zeroed groups (these bullets would be Remington's swaged bullets, which have always given me nice groups). Of course, I am presuming that S&W will have made the M638 so that 158 grainers at 800 fps will be zeroed at about 25 yards.

FYI, I don't mind doing a small amount of filing on front sights, if that is the remaining factor.

In recent decades I have owned 3 revolvers with fixed sights, all very well made and all well regulated at factory for standard weight bullets at standard velocities. All gave "minute of grouse head" groups and POIs at about 10 paces and groups good enough for body shots on grouse at 50 yards. Hopefully, I end up with a S&W stubbie that will perform as well.

Niklas

[Jitterbug]

I really didn't think the Snubbie was capable of much accuracy...at least in my hands.

Recently I was at the range zeroing for a CT Laser with the 442, the range is 12.5 yards.

5 Shot groups

Speer 135 grain Gold Dot +P == 1.9"
Colorado Cast 158 gr. SWC ===1.7"

Impressed me....

[NiklasP]

Jitterbug,

That 442 is DAO, whereas the 438/638 that I am considering are SA and DA revolvers. It is group size when shooting SA that is of interest to me in this thread. Your groups shooting a stubbie DA are quite nice.

I must admit that until recently I had forgotten that some of S&W's stubbies with shrouded hammers actually have a little "hammer spur" that sticks up above the shroud, allowing SA shooting. It is this combination of shrouded hammer, SA capability, lighter weight (than M60) and 2,5 inch barrel available on 638s that make me think one of these little pocket/belly guns could be nice to have for those situations where I do not want to or cannot suitably carry my M60. M638s on GunBroker list at about $200 less than M60s.

MOONDAWG,

I am a well aged shooter, not nearly so well seasoned as Munden. I do try to compensate for my lesser ability by always trying to shoot from some kind of rest, especially when hunting.

Niklas

[G.T. Smith]

I have become quite a bit better with this little 37 since that day. I bought the gun (my first ever j frame), tore it down and cleaned it then took it out to shoot. Magtech 158 grain LRN standard pressure .38's.
The shot in the middle was single action and the other 4 that are all around were fired DA too fast to really maintain a good sight picture. This was at 30'. I was surprised that I did that good. 5 boxes or so later, at 30 feet I can get a 4" or so group, but not with that wild high speed DA
How do you like my high tech target?
I do my deer hunting with a 4" 65 but I always have that little 38 around for good luck.
Happy hunting,
Gordon

[BubbaBlades]

This is two rounds from my CT equipped 442 shot at a 15 yard target. I carried this gun until I replaced it with a CT equipped S&W M638. I like the ability to shoot single action or double action and I still carry my S&W M649 when only a magnum will do.
Mark