anyone try shooting a 4 inch 686 of a ransom rest?

[kidneystones]

after spending a few minutes on google and failing to find an answer, i was wondering if anyone could help me on this one.

thanks for reading.

[KAC]

What do you need to know? I have done this many times.

[kidneystones]

group or group size. i have a 6 inch 686 that can put 5 shots into one hole off hand, but with my 4 inch, i can only do so at 15 yards. i know it's probably me, but i just wanted to find out how other people do using a rest. thanks.

[KAC]

Off a Ransom Rest my 4" 686's shoot every bit as well as my 6" ones. As do the 2.5" ones. The trick is being able to do that without the rest.

[reppans]

Curious what distances you tested this at?

So in theory, if you scoped both a 4" and 6" there'd be no accuracy difference (even the 2.5"?), except perhaps trajectory on the longer shots due the slight velocity difference?

[lfurr]

Probably a canted barrel. lol - sorry, couldn't resist.

[kidneystones]

hi lfurr,

i actually have been following your canted barrel thread. not to hijack my own thread, but my ssr does have a little bit of a cant. i used to own a pro series 686 that went back to s&w because the barrel wasn't just canted, it was also off-axis (relative to the rest of the gun). the smith cutomer service people that i have personally talked to were almost always courteous to me as a customer, but it gets tiring having to send a revolver back only to have them tell you the same "it's canted so it shoots straight" line.

anyway, thanks for the answers to my question. will put in more practice with the 4 incher

[KAC]

In theory barrel length shouldn't make any difference when shooting from a Ransom Rest. Realize though that two identical guns may have differences in accuracy. I have tested the various barrel lengths at 50 yards and have found accuracy/group size to be essentially the same.

[Notoast]

You might try some different bullet weights and see if the 4" likes one weight better than another. If you handload you can also test different velocities.

[scooter123]

Personally, I'm not totally sold on a Ransom Rest. I have a hunch that they don't reset perfectly after every shot and any error in the rest resetting will lead to larger groups. IMO
if a Ransom Rest is used to test for accuracy the gun should have a 4 power scope mounted to it and the rest should be adjusted for sighting on each shot. Basically, you have to make as sure as possible that the gun is aimed at the EXACT same point for each round fired.

I'll also point out that there as an issue that effects the accuracy of one piece barrels. That is the barrel is mounted to the frame at just one point and that point is relatively distant from the end of the muzzle. This results in the barrel behaving like a yardstick held at one end, that is the end that is not held can whip around. While it's hard to believe but you have to remember that "barrel whip" is an issue that precision rifle shooters have delt with for many many years. With a rifle the most accurate loads are those combinations of weight and velocity that cause the bullet to leave the muzzle when it's passing through it's Neutral Point, the point where the muzzle would be at rest. IMO the same thing takes place with a one piece revolver barrel and I was one test that indicated that a scoped 2 1/2 inch 686 was MORE accurate with a variety of ammunitions than a scoped 6 inch 686 shooting the same variety of loads. As for why, a short barrel will be STIFFER than a longer barrel because it's shorter and that shorter length also means it will deflect less at the muzzle than a longer barrel.

Quite simply the most accurate 686 made is very likely the 2 1/2 inch version, however in order to shoot it to it's potential you will need some type of optical sight. I also expect that you would find it far less sensitive to ammunition variables than the longer barrel versions.

What all this means is that you'll have to spend time shooting and experimenting with ammunition in order to find a bullet weight and velocity that has the bullet exiting the muzzle when the muzzle is passing through it's neutral point. As a consequence, what shoots great in one gun may not do well in another. Bore size and the B/C gap all have an effect on muzzle velocity.

Now for a bit of good news. That is that a 4 inch barrel is actually relatively short when you consider the mass of steel in the barrel of a standard 686. As a result I would expect the group size to expand by only a factor of 50-60% when you compared the most and least accurate loads. That means if the best load shoots 2 inches at 25 yards, the worst performer will run 3 inches to a bit more. That is certainly accurate enough for most uses that a 686 would be used for. It's also far better than most of us can do shooting offhand standing on 2 hind legs, myself included.

[kidneystones]

hi scooter123,

thanks for the inrteresting and informative post. my most theoritically accurate revolver then would be my model 640, which is (in my opinion only) the most difficult to shoot off hand. it might also look funny sitting in an iwb holster with a red dot sight.

i was thinking about a ransom rest but the cost was too high, and for what little use it would get, i'll pass.

[BruceM]

I personally feel that barrel harmonic have little if any practical effect on the mechanical accuracy of handguns. Rifles, especially match grade specimens are an entirely different story.

If the reset after each shot is an issue with a Ransom Rest, I have to wonder about the repeatability of the reset with a human rest?

There should be no difference in the mechanical accuracy at normal handgun ranges between 4" and 6" (or 2 1/2" vs 8 3/8" for that matter) barrels other than the normal gun to gun variances. IF you start the stretch the ranges out, then the bullet's loss of velocity and the subsequent instabilities come into play; then barrel length does matter. The practical accuracy, that is, your ability to line up the sights and control recoil do matter and do show up on the target when the barrel length (and sight radius) becomes shorter.

$0.02 worth of opinion & experience.



Bruce

[BubbaBlades]

I found scooter123's comments concerning Ransom Rests and 2 1/2" barrels very interesting. I took my 686+ 2 1/2" to the range today and shot 148 grain flush mounted wadcutters (reloads) and 158 grain lead semiwadcutters (reloads) off hand at 25 yards. Both bullets produced single hole groups. Forum member Allen_frame was at the shooting position next to me and provided me with some factory MagTech jacketed round nose ammo (bullet weight unknown). That ammo also produced a sub 1" 25 yard group however the group was slightly lower than my POA. All three of these groups are smaller than the group size that I see listed from using a Ransom Rest.
Mark

[scooter123]

My issue with the Ransom Rest is partly based on every gun magazine reporting that gun X shot such and such a group AFTER the gun had staiblized in the clamps. IMO if it can squirm in it's mount it's not EVER going to really stabilize. Twenty five yards is a long poke for a handgun and any shifting of the gun between shots will be reflected in larger groups.

As for long barreled revolvers being subject to harmonics, take a look at the results for a tensioned barrel Dan Wesson or Smith & Wesson. Some of the Dan Wesson Silhouette specials have been reported to be capable of 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and this performance has been verified by witnesses to long range competitions. I've also noticed that my S&W 620 is VERY insensitive to ammunition variables, 130 gr. 38 spl. is just as accurate as 158 gr. 38 spl. in terms of group size, however the heavier bullets do shoot a good bit higher.

Finally I feel that I should mention that like most other handgunners I don't have the means or money to devote to honing my handgun skills and maintaining them at a high level. For me, I'm satisfied if I can shoot an inch or less for each 10 feet of range when shooting offhand. That means I'm satisfied if I can hit a 7 1/2 inch target at 25 yards. While I won't consider the target a keeper, I don't go home considering that I shot horribly. Fact is for me getting under 4 inches at 25 yards shooting offhand requires shooting twice a week for at least 4 weeks. The plain truth is that handguns require a lot more practice to maintain skills than almost any rifle. So, if you are new to shooting handguns and feel you are doing terribly, odds are pretty good that it's not a problem with the gun, odds are the person shooting the gun has found that handgun shooting requires more than they expected. Consider it a challenge and if you put in the time you will improve.