329 PD As Last Resort Alaska Bear Defense

[dwever]

A 329 PD .44 Magnum would be a terrible choice as a general .44 Magnum because of it's punishing recoil from the scandium frame and titanium cylinder.

But for a last resort large game (read moose or bear) defense weapon the punishment would be worth it.

Can this weapon fire Buffalo Bore +P+ (1,650 ft. lbs.) in a crisis, that's a heck of a lot more stopping power than my 650 ft. lbs. of 10mm I currently carry on the semi-auto platform pictured. Or should a heavier .44 Magnum be sought for this kind of load?

Pic 4: This past Friday, Moses and I saw multiple moose on our drive from Fairbanks to Wasilla which can also pose a problem certain circumstances.

UPDATE: From Review, "Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon warn against using their heavier loads in the S&W 329PD or Taurus 444. This is due to the risk of over-stressing the frame, and bullet jump, which is when a round can unseat from the case under recoil and jam your cylinder."

Well that answers that.

[Joe4d]

If it was me I'd look for a coated hard cast SWC in the 250-300 gr area,
I hike and ride in areas with agressive protected black bears. I carry a CDR allow 1911 45 with Hard cast 210's ovr a max charge of BE 86

[Wise_A]

Agreed. Steel-framed .44, heavy hard-cast bullet. It doesn't have to be stupendously hot, either. It's the bullet's mass, construction, and design that provides penetration.

PS--Is that a Serpa? In general, locking Kydex holsters aren't really super-great options for this particular application. The locking mechanism can fail, holding the gun in the holster. Even worse, it's very easy to separate the gun-bearing half from the belt-securing half on some models. Bottom line, if I was looking for a holster that I might have to use while fistfighting a grizzly, I'd look at a really solid leather holster with a thumbstrap. Same Level 2 retention, just as easy to work (with less chance of going finger-on-trigger too early), much more rugged.

Ditto for the red dot. I like them, but glare can be a real issue.

[cmj8591]

You won't notice the recoil if you're being attacked by a grizzly bear. I know it's apples vs oranges, but if you can do it, the best thing is a short barreled, pump action, 12ga loaded with slugs. Easier to use under stress and at the top of the power chain.

[Paul105]

You might want to consider these for use in the 329:

Garrett Cartridges Inc.

Lots of info on their website regarding bullets, penetration, etc.

FWIW,

Paul

[murphydog]

I think sticking with your original idea of a 10 mm semi-auto with full loads is a good idea; you'll need more than one round quickly. Also a large can of repellent.

[skipnsb]

I have same question as op. In my dream retirement in grizzly country I will be carrying bear spray and a long gun, but also plan on a 329 in a holster. If I ever have to use it for a bear attack, I want the baddest bullet possible. I don't care if it shakes the gun loose, as long as the cylinder doesn't let go.

As I understand the stories I have read, one will be lucky to get off a single shot at a charging bear, so maybe crimp jump is not the real issue?

So, what is the best bear load for a 329? Can the crimp jump problem be solved with a tighter crimp? Is the titanium cylinder as tough as a steel one? Would the 329 Night Guard with a 2.5" barrel give up much velocity over the 4" PD? A Night Guard comes with a steel cylinder, with a titanium cylinder it would be a few ounces lighter and a little handier than the PD.

We have all seen the stories, .22 kills grizzly, various long guns don't stop it, lucky shot with a 9mm saves the day, etc. I personally know a fellow who claims to have been chased up an escarpment by brown, the scree was too loose for the bear to catch him, and he watched his .30-.30 bounce off the skull from less than 50 feet until the bear got bored. He said he burned his pants afterward.

But, my Charter Arms Bulldog with some hot handloads sure gave me some (perhaps false) comfort while hiking in black bear country. I will carry a revolver at least for 2 legged antoginists, a few more ounces for a 329 over an airweight will give me a little more comfort.

The next step up seems to be a Ruger 480 Alaskan at 45 oz, then a custom 5 shot .500 special, at about double the weight of the 329. Until you have hiked 20 miles in a day, 22 additional ounces on your belt doesn't seem like a lot. But your wallet will be lighter to partially make up for it.

So, what is the baddest bullet for the 329? I assume a short range shot, so MOA is probably not too important. Maybe a crowd funded project to see where the 329 blows up?

Just musing for now until retirement. Skip

[Joe4d]

Id probably go with a 69 over the 329. Just a better all around gun. Yeh saving weight is ok but that 329 is just over board. 69 is steel medium frame runs 34-37 oz,, so not as big and heavy as the steel N frames but enought to hold on to.

[Joe4d]

here u go solid copper, good penetration but a bit lighter weight. May be the ticket for the 329
Underwood Ammo 44 Remington Mag 220 Grain Lehigh Xtreme - MPN: 841

[THE PILGRIM]

What do the Alaskan Locals carry in their 329s?

[oddshooter]

Go scandium !

The best gun is the one you have with you. The OP said he can't carry heavy.

I am too light in the butt to carry all day myself. My pants come down or I'm hitching them continually.

I have a scandium sw 360pd weighing 13 oz in 357 magnum. It's recoil is easily more punishing than my 44 magnums. I have carried it on every backcountry walk for several years. I forget it's there.
I don't care about the recoil. I know from an experience that you do not feel recoil during stress. You feel it later.
I have beautiful long barreled revolvers of every variety: Pythons, 27's, 686, Rugers. I carry the f* ugly S&W 360.

I wouldn't care if you ever shot the SW 329 at the range, just make sure it's on your hip when you need it.

Scandium isn't made for fun, it's made to save your life.

Prescut

That does not answer that. You don't need +P+ in a 44 Magnum. You need placement and bullet selection.

[Echo40]

You don't need +P+ or even +P for that matter, a standard pressure heavyweight .44 Magnum Hardcast SWC will get the job done so long as you do your part.

Nowadays you'll see a lot of folks online talking about Bear Defense who have never even seen a bear in the wild, much less had to defend themselves against one, yet they act like they're experts on the matter and that nothing less than a 120mm Cannon will stop a bear, when in reality men have taken bears with single shot muskets which were far less accurate/powerful than a .44 Magnum.
I think the real problem is that the average person who has never even set foot in the wilderness has come to regard the bear as some sort of legendary unstoppable killing machine just because they've read tales of inexperienced city slickers going into the wilderness unprepared, ended up getting mauled or killed, and are shocked to hear that the mighty 9mm Pistol the victim was carrying was insufficient against bears, which therefore must mean that bears are nigh impervious to damage from firearms if the standard issue cartridge of the Military and various Law Enforcement agencies failed to fell the beast.
In addition, I've noticed that there is a disturbing trend of inexperienced shooters thinking that Jacketed Hallow Point bullets are the ultimate in defense against everything that walks the earth and are always better than solid projectiles, ergo when they hear that a standard pressure .44 Magnum JHP is ineffective against a bear, they automatically assume that the .44 Magnum in general is ineffective against bears and therefore they need to get a more powerful cartridge or start using overpressure ammunition.

It's honestly a wonder how these folks account for the fact that people have been living in Alaska long before the invention of the .44 Magnum, let alone modern cartridge/smokeless powder ammunition.

In reality, even the mightiest of bear can be felled by a well-placed standard pressure heavyweight .45 Colt Hardcast SWC, and for those who are unaware, a standard pressure .45 Colt is nowhere near as fast nor as powerful as a .44 Magnum. In fact, it's more comparable to the .44 Special or .45 ACP. So how can such a comparatively puny cartridge possibly stop a Grizzly or Polar Bear? With a big, heavy chunk of bone-shattering lead, that's how.
Sure, more powerful cartridges will do a better job and require less precise shot placement, but the tradeoff is that more powerful cartridges have significantly sharper recoil which makes it easier to flinch and virtually impossible to get off more than a single shot. (Granted that a charging Grizzly or Polar Bear is so fast that it's highly unlikely to get off more than a single shot anyway, but still.)

At any rate, the point is that you'll be fine with your 329 PD as long as you use a proper heavy Hardcast SWC load. Trust me, it will serve you much better than converting your 329 PD into an improvised hand grenade by loading it up with +P+ ammo.

[ISCS Yoda]

Well, this is a truly great bear thread. Thanks, y'all!

And, as Dirty Harry Callahan suggested, I'd use a .45 Colt, or even a .357 Magnum with solids. 44 Magnum recoils too much. Bullet placement and multiple shots are why I don't like .44 Magnum; I don't care that you don't "feel the recoil" under stress. You still have to deal with it.

I don't hang out in bear country often but when I do that's what I choose.

[Wise_A]

Originally Posted by skipnsb

As I understand the stories I have read, one will be lucky to get off a single shot at a charging bear, so maybe crimp jump is not the real issue?

No offense, but then you might as well just lug around a .30-06 Contender.

Can the crimp jump problem be solved with a tighter crimp?

No. From the cartridge's perspective, bullet pull isn't just a matter of how tightly the bullet is crimped, but where on the bullet the crimp falls. Most lead revolver bullets have grooves that the case mouth is designed to be rolled into. If you seat the bullet too deeply, the case mouth is crimped into the middle of that groove, and allows for bullet pull.

You can also induce bullet pull by over-crimping. Remember there's nothing adhering the case to the bullet. So if you over-crimp, you end up squeezing or cutting the bullet down to a smaller size. Then the elasticity of the brass causes it to pull away from the bullet, reducing tension between the case and bullet.

---

As to specific cartridges with the aim of "guaranteed" stops against a bear, I might remind posters that there are no guaranteed one-shot stoppers again humans. And that goes right up to Magnums, rifles, and axeheads to the cranium. That isn't to say that bears are impervious to harm--simply that things don't die the way they do in the movies.

The idea of there being a "guaranteed" or even "good" cartridge for bear defense is pure foolishness. The only reliable way to stop a bear attack is to not be where the damn bears are.

[TAROMAN]

[Echo40]

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

Well, this is a truly great bear thread. Thanks, y'all!

And, as Dirty Harry Callahan suggested, I'd use a .45 Colt, or even a .357 Magnum with solids. 44 Magnum recoils too much. Bullet placement and multiple shots are why I don't like .44 Magnum; I don't care that you don't "feel the recoil" under stress. You still have to deal with it.

I don't hang out in bear country often but when I do that's what I choose.

Yeah, everybody is too concerned with numeric figures like feet-per-second, foot-pounds of energy, pounds-per-square-inch of pressure, and the diameter of an expanded bullet, always looking for the highest numbers which can often be misleading, especially in concerns to older cartridges like the .45 Colt which are relatively slow, low pressure rounds, yet still pack a wallop due to the sheer size/weight of the bullet and the relative momentum behind them.

Obviously, a .44 Magnum even in standard pressure loads outperforms a .45 Colt, so if a standard pressure 255gr+ .45 Colt traveling at 1000fps with 550ft-lbs can stop a Grizzly or Polar Bear with precise shot placement, then obviously a standard pressure .44 Magnum of equal weight traveling at 1300fps with 1000ft-lbs will get the job done as well.

Sure, if you own a more powerful Revolver which is without a doubt capable of safely handling hotter ammo and you can handle the recoil, then obviously carrying it is a smarter decision because, you know, why not?
However, contrary to popular belief, you don't need a 500 S&W Magnum (or any other such extremely powerful Magnum cartridges) and divine intervention to stop a big bear.

Get yourself some good heavy standard pressure .44 Magnum ammo (I recommend this load by Buffalo Bore, which was designed with the 329 PD in mind) load up your 329 PD and go about your business with confidence that should you need it, it will get the job done.
Certain folks will disagree, but Elmer Keith, (a well-respected hunter who helped to create the .44 Magnum) was adamant that a 255gr hardcast SWC traveling at 1200fps could take down anything in North America, and I would think that he knows a little bit more about hunting large game with a handgun than your average guy on the internet who is basing his statements purely on anecdotal evidence derived from articles he read about bear attacks.

[jmclfrsh]

^ Good Point. Experience beats out hypothesis and uninformed opinions by computer jockeys.

[stevebarracuda]

Do as DHC says , thats the exact same load I use in my 329-NG , you definately know you just shot a .44 magnum but its not that bad .I have used the 340 grain in my Redhawk but the package is just to heavy for extended carry so I use that as a camp gun.

[chipper]

Geez, just get a 460 S&W and end the thread.

[Rpg]

Several years ago, my club set up a charging bear target. Life sized charging bear printed on a sheet of paper about 2.5’ x 3’ in size on a motorized pully so the ‘bear’ moved directly at the shooter at a very good clip. It started 20 yards from the firing line.

It was supposed to travel at 20 mph but we had no real way to measure or calibrate the speed.

Trying to hit that thing from the leather before it got to the firing line was a sobering experience. The only folks who placed shots on target used a 1911, a 4” M19 or a rifle or shotgun.

Couple guys shot 44 mags: they were too slow to save themselves before bear got to them.

I could do it with a 1911and a Remington 660 but had no chance with a M29.

Convinced me that big handguns may be great for hunting but not such a good idea for defending against bear: they’re just too quick.

[ISCS Yoda]

Convinced me that big handguns may be great for hunting but not such a good idea for defending against bear: they’re just too quick.

That's my point. If I was hunting bears I'd use a rifle. If I have to stop a charging bear I want to be able to dump rounds downrange fast. If I'm going to lose that fight (likely) I want to give it my best shot (pun intended ).

I would never argue against the experience of Elmer Keith but I'm not Elmer Keith. I know what I can shoot fast and reasonably well. A .44 Magnum is not on that list.

[RGVshooter]

You guys are over analyzing this. It doesn't matter what caliber revolver/pistol is used if you can't put shots in the butter zone. That being said, in all reality if I'm going to the upper Northwest where I might encounter a large brown/grizzly bear then a Glock G20 should be sufficient. But since I don't own a G20 when I already have a 4" 686, I would just use that. And if 5 shots of 173gr hardcast SWC doesn't do it, then I always have the 6th one for myself.

[Harkrader]

I carried a 329PD as a Backcountry backpacking gun for seven years. Before I bought it I called S&W to ask if it could handle the Garrett and Corbon hunting loads and was told "Yes."

So I did.

"Punishing" is not strong enough for a load like that in such a light gun. You can injure yourself if you don't FIRST learn how to handle the recoil. After I had it for 2 years I put Crimson Trace Hog Hunter grips on mine and had Mag Na Ports bored into it. The ports help. If you don't think so, fire one side-by-side with an unmodified one. [I have an unmodified one, bought as-new from a person who decided he didn't want to risk injury.]
Check out what John Taffin and others say about shooting guns with such heavy recoil. In short, don't try to control it. Let the gun roll and rise or you WILL damage your wrists. I am former military with a lot of time working high-threat close-protection and was always taught to rigidly control recoil for quick follow-up shots. With the PD and heavy loads, even letting it roll I can put two rounds quickly into "minute of charging bear".

Second or third time at the range, the crane broke and the fired shell was jammed in the cylinder. I sent it back to S&W with all info and they repaired it, no charge.

I fired a maximum of six rounds of the heavy loads through it per year, just to be sure it was still zeroed. After five years I sent it to Cylinder and Slide to have their Extreme Duty rear sight with tritium tubes installed and the Ashley Outdoors Big Dot on the front. They also adjusted the sights for my chosen loads, since the rear is fixed.
BUT, before they would work on it, they told me the lockwork was badly worn and it should go back to S&W for rebuild. Again, S&W did it no charge. Tough to argue with that.

Stepping into the holster conversation, I have very strong feelings after seeing dangerous animals on their home turf. I have a custom-made holster for the 29-series S&W revolvers, with a strap over the top.
THEN I was 'packing one of my favorite trails out of Hancock Pass in the Colorado Rockies, and traversing a slope I had long thought would be the perfect place for a cougar to lurk. I saw a blur above me about 50 yards, that streaked down the slope, bounded over the trail and continued on downhill. It was a cougar, and was in sight for a TOTAL of about three seconds. Figure just about two while it was higher than the trail. There is no way I could have drawn in time from that strap-over holster. I went to a Kydex security holster I had for the N-frames. I see at least one person expressing concern that the lock could fail, trapping the gun. I don't know how many security holsters I have had or been issued, but it is a lot, and they were for a broad range of guns from Beretta to Colt to S&W, Sigs and Ruger, and none has ever failed. I have taken "The Short Cut" down the mountain a few times, a**-over-teakettle, and never lost a gun or experienced a holster failure. That's what I've carried ever after. Naturally, the holster gets a detailed inspection and test before I head out.

I had been carrying a Colt Anaconda before I got the 329PD, and went back to it in 2011 (the year after the cougar), alternating with my S&W 29 and 629 Mountain Guns. Since then, I have fired mostly 180-gr and 200-gr handloads through the PD and it is still tight. My hands and wrists simply won't handle the stunning recoil of the 329PD with heavy loads.

[Harkrader]

Forgot the pix.
Colt Anacondas.jpgS&W 29 629 and 625 Mountain Guns.jpgATTACH]329656[/ATTACH]

[fastgun]

Since many suggestions have been made, let me add as an FYI that Stephen Herrero wrote in his book, Bear Attacks (Their Causes and Avoidances) that he will not venture into grizzly bear country unless he can carry a rifle. It is a good read. He has a very health respect for black bears as well and helped change my mind about a gun when hiking in black bear country.

[ISCS Yoda]

And if 5 shots of 173gr hardcast SWC doesn't do it, then I always have the 6th one for myself.

You sound like Rudyard Kipling!

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

Last verse of "The Young British Soldier". Full poem can be found here:

Poetry Lovers' Page - Rudyard Kipling: The Young British Soldier

Copyright © 1995-2013 poetryloverspage.com

[dben002]

What's with all this high power ammo talk with bears...........

You obviously don't even need a gun as this man in Alaska shows........

YouTube

[ISCS Yoda]

This guy needs to buy a lottery ticket!!!!

[Groo01]

Groo here
I knew some people who were custom ammo makers in Alaska.
There 329 load [ and feedback said it worked well on bear and moose]
was a 250gr SWC gascheck at about 1100fps.
Said no body ever recovered one.
Remember the shooting with such a gun will be in feet or inches.
Sights are not needed, but you need to be able to shoot one handed.
Heaver boolets and loads are for hunting [ aka many yards away]
defense is up close and personal

[jtcarm]

Originally Posted by TAROMAN

[Tom_R]

This story is worth a read:

Charging Bear Killed in Alaska | Field & Stream

This is from an actual event.

Pay mind to the very end when he tries to re-enact what he did to save his life at the range. Adrenaline is a great thing, it saved his life, along with a VERY smart choice in a sidearm.

[Echo40]

I believe I have read this story before elsewhere, (but unfortunately it's hard to tell since so many bear attack stories play out more or less the same) if I recall correctly, it was discovered that the cause of his Ruger jamming was that the ammo had jumped the crimp under recoil and lodged itself between the cylinder and forcing cone, said ammo was some loose handloads he had purchased for lack of anything better, but there have been reports of even factory ammo jumping the crimp under recoil.

That's one reason why I would sooner carry a Revolver chambered in .45 Colt or .44 Magnum than more powerful cartridges since both are easier to control and seemingly don't generate enough recoil to jump the crimp in standard pressure loads.
However, my first choice for bear defense would be a 12 Gauge pump action Shotgun loaded with hardcast slugs. If size and weight is a concern, then there's always the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington TAC-14.

[overlandflyer]

i picked up a 329PD a few weeks ago and just installed a Pachmayr Diamond Pro grip today so i have yet to fire it, but i got a tip on this ammo from Buffalo Bore...

[jtcarm]

I just picked up a very lightly used 325PD. I suspect the previous owner didn’t care for the recoil.

60 rounds of Winchester 230-grain ball, while not painful, left me with no doubt I’d shot something.

It also left me with no doubt I would not care to shoot a 300-grain+, full pressure .44 mag from that platform.

The guide who dropped the bear with his Ruger was extremely lucky that his failure to test at least a couple cylinders-full of his bear load didn’t cost his life.

[Neumann]

When hiking in the woods out west, I carry a 3" .44 Magnum with a steel frame (629), and hard-cast semi-wadcutters loaded according to published tables. It's not the most powerful, but hard-cast bullets penetrate without deformation. An alternative is a 4" .44 Magnum "Mountain Gun," which weighs about the same - 46 oz.

After a few rounds at the range with a 25 oz 329, I suspect I'd face a bear wondering if I should shoot or just wait for the bear

My pants want to droop with a revolver at my hip too. A shoulder holster might be the answer, or a tanker rig (cross chest). I wear an Alessi shoulder holster while driving, concealed under a light jacket or vest in cool weather. In the summer, an IWB under an un-tucked shirt. An IWB presses the cylinder against the top of your hip bone, which helps keep it from sagging.

[yfdcap]

I found bullet setback to be a big issue with my 329 when stepping up to hot loads. Which ever round you choose make sure and test it (with good gloves) and check for setback after each shot. That said, my bear handgun is a 454 Casull with my CP 360 grain WLNGC reloads. I like to think the Casull will be harder on the bears digestive system when he is passing me and my gun.