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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 10-10-2011, 07:12 AM
msinc msinc is offline
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Default S&W Governor???

Someone at a gunshop in Florida convinced my mother-in-law she had to have a Governor. She visited this weekend and brought it along to try out. It appears to be light striking the 410 ammo. I believe the ammo might be the problem as you can load the cylinder and rock the muzzle up and down and see the shells float front to back in the chambers...sounds like a headspace problem but I doubt it, I'm thinking bad ammo. I vaguely remember seeing post about certain brands of 410 shells being better than others. I hope this is the problem because with both Remington and another brand the gun fires about one round out of the cylinder full. Any ideas or info is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:53 AM
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I have not had a ftf with any ammo in my Governor, which I bought new in early June. That includes red plastic #9, green plastic #6 (Rem), and black plastic Win PDX1 2.5" .410's, as well as several brands of .45 ACP, Colts, and even my .45 Schofield reloads - no ftf's!

You might remove the grip and check the strain screw on the front lower section of the grip frame. It should be tight - fully CW. If not, tighten it! It is not an adjustment - it puts the proper amount of pre-load on the hammer spring. It can be loosened for spring changes. Loose, the DA pull will be softer - but ftf's will occur.

Stainz
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:06 PM
Tom C Tom C is offline
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You might want to consider a longer firing pin. I have routinely put them in some of my revos, particularly the .45 ACP revolvers.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
msinc msinc is offline
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I will take a look at the screw...it seems to have plenty of spring but a check is definately good advice, thanks. There does not seem to be alot of firing pin protrusion at first check but this gun appears to have an inertia firing pin so just looking at it "fired" wont really tell. It doesn't seem right that the unfired 410 shells can move back and forth when the cylinder is closed...but I cant believe S&W missed that bad on the headspace. I will check those things when I get home this evening and report back. Thanks again so far.
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:47 PM
msinc msinc is offline
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There has to be something wrong here...there is at least a .050" gap between the head of a new unfired 410 shell and the breech of the revolver. Both Remington and Rio {off the wall but the same gap as the Remingtons} shells have the same gap. The firing pin is barely hitting the primer, only enough to leave a small mark. I dont know how the gun ever fired at all much less every sixth round. Next thing will be a 410 headspace gauge.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:35 AM
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Was the strain screw tight? Did anyone replace the hammer spring (OEM = flat; Wolff = humped back.)? If so, the problem could be insufficient spring preload. Many strain screws, with a turned down end, intrude into the Wolff spring's hump, lessening the hammer pre-load and strike energy. A different and unaltered strain screw may fix it. Shotgun primers take more energy to discharge. The majority of the shot primer's 'dimple' comes when the fired case pushes back against the recoil shield, pushing the fp deeper. A ftf cartridge's dimple will look insignificant by comparison - as would a defective primer's.

What is the barrel/cylinder gap?

I know there have been 'short' firing pins in some new S&W - several years back. That shouldn't effect something as new as a Governor, one would think. Installing a C&S extended firing pin gains you nothing extra in pin length - just greater extension because it's limiting notch is wider. If so-equipped, dropping the hammer on an empty chamber will flatten the fp return spring - eventually breaking it.

If you have ftf's with .45 ACP's and .45 Colts as well as the .410's, obviously something is wrong - it happens - I'd call S&W - have them pick it up. They'll send you a pre-paid FEDEX overnite label - no cost either way - or for the call (S&W: 1-800-331-0852). Good luck!

Stainz

Last edited by Stainz; 10-11-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:47 AM
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I noticed at the store..they had .410 handgun ammo...not for sure what'ss up with that?
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:43 AM
TX58 TX58 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post
I noticed at the store..they had .410 handgun ammo...not for sure what'ss up with that?
It's designed for the Governor (ignore the Judge) type handguns. The velocities posted on the box of shotgun shells are tested out of a shotgun with (probably at least) a 26 inch barrel. So, when shot out of a handgun, the velocity is WAY lower. So .410 handgun ammunition is supposed to be the actual velocity out of the Governor.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:46 PM
msinc msinc is offline
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"The majority of the shot primer's 'dimple' comes when the fired case pushes back against the recoil shield, pushing the fp deeper."

I understand what you are saying but...if the above statement is true {and in this case it is exactly what is happening} then there is definately excessive severely wrong headspace. It might be the gun, it might be the ammo but for the above statement to happen something is definately wrong. Thanks for all the input so far fellas.

Edit: Yes the spring strain screw is tight and the spring is factory and appears to be in good shape and of the correct weight. The barrel to cylinder gap appears normal as well at .007". Its the gap in the back of the cylinder I am concerned about. With two different brands of 410 ammo in the cylinder there is still better than .050" space between the case head and the breech. You can hold the gun level like you are going to shoot it and rock the muzzle up and down and see/hear the shells slap back and forth. I need a SAAMI blueprint of a 410 shell.

Last edited by msinc; 10-11-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:53 PM
hypnodoc hypnodoc is offline
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Default NO problems with my Governor

I have fired any and all available ammo from my Governor and have had 1 problem. It was loading steal 45acp ammo in the moon clips and that causing a tight fit when trying to load the moon clip in the cylinder. That was solved by just using brass case ammo. Even dirty cheep brass was no problem. As far as the 410 shells, all fired smooth as glass. My wife loves the gun and she fires it well also.

There are some pretty bright guys here on the governor threads that can answer the mechanical issues. Just sit back and read/learn. The governor is a great gun and don't let anybody try and tell you different. If there IS a mechanical/part issue, S&W will fix it. Follow through with your investigation regarding this issue. You need to find the answer.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:37 PM
msinc msinc is offline
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I have the answer and yes the gun will go back to S&W. I was guessing when I said .050" excess headspace. I looked at the gap and being a machinist by trade rattled off .050". I didn't miss by too much for guessing by eye to the thousandths. It has .039" headspace on the go gauge and .025" on the no-go. The ammo fires fine in one of my Winchester 42's {the only 410's I own} and is made to SAAMI specs. Interesting that this gun uses an inertia firing pin so if you look at the protrusion with the hammer down it appears to be short of not coming thru the breech far enough. If you reach back and push in on the back of the firing pin it has plenty of protrusion. Anyone can make a mistake, and I am sure they will fix it. I know alot of guys complain, but I have personally had good luck with S&W customer service.
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Old 10-16-2011, 02:10 PM
DaveShooter1 DaveShooter1 is offline
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Glad ya got it figured out. I have a Smith 10 shot at Smith dosen't like stingers to well as far as fit and function in the cylinder. My Gov works great so far. As you stated Smith will take care of ya. keep us posted as I will on my 617 10 shot.......
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:03 PM
OldGrump OldGrump is offline
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OK... You got me worried about my new Gov. I recently purchased. So I did some measuring. There is no cylinder end shake, yeah. The cylinder gap is .007, ok. The headspace with no ammo is .067... Measuring the headspace with the only .410 I have on hand(Winchester Super Sport Sporting Clays) it is .016, ok... The firing pin with the hammer down is .030. When I push the firing pin in with a pencil it measures .040.
I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks like mine will work just fine.... YA!!

MSINC, keep us updated, please! Thanks!
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:13 AM
msinc msinc is offline
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I will certainly keep everyone updated. Thanks for the posts and comments/info. Oldgrump, .016" headspace is a little {.002"} out but probably just due to the ammo. Two things I have noticed about shotgun ammo, I dont know if the lower pressure "loosens" up the quality control but many brands are not withing SAAMI specs...same with rimfire ammo. Second, I have noticed that some shotgun shells have very hard primers and others, usually the better quality brands have softer primers. Many primers are steel but plated to look like brass or copper. I have seen primers in shotgun shells so hard you couldn't open a double barrel shotgun that lacked floating firing pins.
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:28 PM
Diocletian Diocletian is offline
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Default 410 lite strike, Goveernor

The Roman Legions would have dubbed this weapon Dubious Maximus! S&W has to use a 6 round moon clip or 2 round clip to operate with 45 ACP. That raises the 45 ACP Breech Bolt Face and primer to a height of 0.086" above the cylinder charge hole entry surface. 410 rounds load directly into the cylinder and have heights of:
WINCHESTER PDX1.410 = 0.078" 1 / 18 FAIL = 5% MISFIRE
REMINGTON HD 000 BK = 0.077" 0 / 6 FAIL = 0.% MISFIRE
HORNADY TRIPLE DEF = 0.077" 2 / 9 FAIL = 20% MISFIRE
FEDERAL 410 HAND G = 0.074" 0 / 6 FAIL = 0% MISFIRE
HERTER'S SELECT DEF = 0.058" 2 / 4 FAIL = 50% MISFIRE
WINCHESTER 45 ACP = 0.086" 0 / 27 FAIL = 0% MISFIRE
Some good quality, SAAMI compliant, factory ammunition has failed in this weapon at an alarming rate. Primer examination indicates a lite strike. HYPOTHESIS: S&W uses a firing pin return spring. As the firing pin travels toward the primer it
encounters energy transfer ( J/g) of return spring compression. According to Hooke's Law, spring compression will transfer energy exponentially. Therefore, a few mils (0.001") travel of the firing pin during the spring compression phase doesn't leave sufficient energy for a reliable primer strike. It's my opinion this is a design flaw and misapplication
of Statistical Process Control. I had to send mine back to S&W but options to fix a poor design are limited. A longer firing pin or more initial inertial energy could raise the issue of primer punch through. I paid a premium for the S&W brand with higher expectations, very disappointed.
Let's see what the S&W warranty team can do. The laser and
FEDERAL HANDGUN 410 made a great team at 30' in my two field trials. However, > 1% misfire will never be tolerated!

"One test is worth one thousand professional opinions"
Dr. Werner Von Braun
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:00 PM
Tom C Tom C is offline
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I think the issue of light strikes is related to drop test requirements which was answered with slightly short firing pins. I have gotten misfires in 625 and 627's. My solution has been firing pins with slightly longer length/stroke.
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45acp, 617, cartridge, primer, remington, rimfire, s&w, schofield, sig arms, winchester

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