I have been haunted this week by a S&W 625 mountain gun I ran into at my local gun spa last week.
The price tag was 625.00 used, clean, fairly tight with no end shake in very good overall condition.
It was chambered for the 45LC.
Will this gun fire 45ACP with 1/2 moon clips or without them or at all ?
Is this a decent price?
Penmon AKA Jim

The gun as it sits will not fire 45acp, but if you have the cylinder mach for moon clips it will shoot both 45C & 45acp (only with moon clips) Mark does a great job and did my 625MG Pinnacle-Guns.com: Pinnacle High Performance Custom Gunsmithing

As for the price, is it lock or pre lock?

lock, I think, need to look again.
Penmon

Very interesting, for $85.00 plus S&H I can shoot 45 ACP, 45 LC and 454 Casull.
Thanks for the link
Penmon

No!!! That is only if your gun is already 454, it does not change inside your cylinder, it only machines the lip so a moon clip can fit. The 45C will not use the clip, only the 45acp.From the sight (.45 LC cylinders can be cut to shoot both ACP and LC)

What would a 625-6 mountain gun in .45ACP be worth? I have an opportunity to buy one that is in very nice condition, with original box and plenty of moonclips.

Pen,
No Smith N-Frame was built to handle the .454.
Ever.
Denis

I am surprised no one has weighed in on this, and I really don't know because I haven't seen one. They are rare.

As to the cost of a 45 Colt MG, I think $625 is pretty good. I paid $750 for mine new. I really like mine.

__________________
Proud anachronism

Unless I am missing something here. If you machine the cylinder to take 45acp with clips then you HAVE to USE moon clips for the 45 Colt also otherwise the rim will move foreward and you won't get any firing pin strikes on the primers. Am I correct??

John

The process of machining a 45 Colt cylinder to take 45 ACP in moonclips leaves a small ledge around the outside edge of the cylinder.

45 ACP must use moonclips, you cannot use 45 AR but 45 Colt is unaffected - you can load and shoot the Colt rounds with or without the clip.

OK thanks, I just assumed that the whole back of the cylinder was machined. I always learn something new here.

Of course when you don't know much it is easy to learn something new! ha ha

John

So I got myself a 626 mountain gun in 45LC and thanks to the members here on the forum I was learned I could have the back face of the cylinder shaved so it would also fire 45ACP with moon clips.
It was recommended that I contact Mark Hartshorne at Pinnacle Performance and after several weeks of trying, with no reply. I notice that Pinnacle site had a link to TK Custom for the moon clips.
I checked with Tom Killoffer at TK customs and not only does he offer the moon clips for sale at 10 for $59.95 he also offers the dual caliber conversion work for the 625 including shipping for $100.00.
Pinnacle High performance web price was $87.00 but he won't answer the phone or respond to emails, nothing makes a fellow lose faith quicker. The $13.00 difference is nothing in the greater scheme, as it seems Tom Killoffer from TK Custom has been doing these conversions for the last 15 years.

Tom Killoffer from TK custom seems like a real gentleman and he stated he limits his work to moon clips and cylinder machining. I feel pretty good about doing business with him, his credentials are great, plus he answered the phone and spent some time explaining his work and how he performs it.

My only question is would you also have him perform the same work, that is cutting the cylinder so it will also fire 45ACP with moon clips as well as it's intended round the 45LC on an S&W, 25-3, 125th anniversary.

Penmon AKA Jim

I fail to see how you can shoot a 45 colt in a cylinder once you cut it back to allow moon clipped 45 acps. The 45 colt head spaces on the rim and when you cut the cylinder down you are making a condition that the firing pin will not reach the 45 colt primer.

In my opinion you are ruining a perfectly good gun. But that is MY opinion. How are you going to get 45 colt ammo to work???

John

The process does not machine off the entire rear face of the cylinder. A small lip/ledge is left around the rim to headspace the colt round.

45 ACP in a moonclip fits entirely inside this rim.

Interesting. I don't think I would do it to my gun. But to each his own.

Good luck to you Penmon. I hope it works out good for you.

John

Another thing to consider is that the conversion from .45 Colt to .45 ACP with moonclips results in mediocre accuracy. I've had shooting access to several such conversions and after extensive Ransom rest testing with match-quality ammo, group sizes more than doubled between .45 Colt and .45 ACP.

If I find a 625-6 .45 Colt in good or better shape for $6naQ, I'm jumping on it with both feet!!!

__________________
Go big or stay home

My first-ever S&W was my 625-7 MG (9/02) in .45 Colt. I tried to wear it out - even to starting reloading just for the .45 Colt. That blossomed into another hobby. Eventually, I traded for a LN 625-6 MG in .45 Colt - to keep from wearing out my sentimental favorite first S&W. My second S&W, however, was a 4" 625-8 .45 in ACP - later in 9/02 - as I couldn't then find a 625MG in .45 ACP. I still haven't found one! That original 4" 625-8 eventually was replaced by a 625-8 JM revolver - still looking for that elusive 625MG in .45 ACP. I would never consider butchering a .45 Colt cylinder so it could load .45 ACPs - but that's me. I like shooting .45 Auto Rims in my 625JM - that wouldn't be possible in a 'modified' .45 Colt cylinder 25/625.

S&W does make a .45 Colt-capable cylinder that chambers .45 ACPs in moonclips - look at the Governor to see what the vestigal rim ring of full OAL looks like. That rim permits rimmed cartridges, like the .45 Colt & Schofield - as well as 2.5" .410 shotgun shells - but excludes loading the thick-rimmed .45 Auto Rim cases. I still have my pair of 625MGs in .45 Colt and wouldn't consider modifying either - but that's me.



BTW, if you do go through with the moonclip conversion - or get a .45 ACP chambered S&W, including the Governor, Ranch Products makes the blued steel moonclips shipped with new S&Ws - and they were $35/100 shipped directly from them.

Stainz

My buddy suffered the same poor accuracy results with his .45 ACP MG with the Colt round. Cylinder & Slide did the machining and it was over $100.00. It was very accurate with the .45 ACP's and very comfortable to shoot. I'd leave it as is if it were my revolver.

I had a pre IL 657 MG. Loved it as I'm a die hard .41 mag fan. It carried very well in a cross draw holster but was snappier from the light weight. No bigggie for hunting and hiking but not alot of fun at the range with full powered loads. Nothing 7.0 grains of Unique and a LSWC couldn't take care of. In a moment of stupidity I let it go and have regretted it ever since.

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V/R
Roger / SG

Before I begin the process of “butchering” my 625-9 I wanted to ask for a little more information.

I purchased this pistol with the sole goal of converting it to fire 45 ACP using full moon clips and yet still have the ability to fire 45LC if I chose to.

My logic is this 1
1) While I have the ability to reload, I do not like to and find it tedious and time consuming .To that end 45LC is too expensive for me to shoot regularly if not reloaded, 45ACP is a far more affordable round in my book.
2) I find the recoil of the 45LC to be uncomfortable during long range outings.
3)I found this write up on the web and it highly impressed me.
http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/.../miculek5.html

This is the process I plan to use when I butcher my gun.
Welcome to TK Custom.com & Moonclips.com

I do not see the difference in changing the grips, installing new sights, polishing stainless steel and converting a pistol to fire two different rounds, so no I do not feel I am butchering my pistol.
I could however see your point if I was reducing the barrel length or converting a square butt to a round butt, I do realize this is a permanent modification to the gun but I see it as an improvement not butchering.

Now for my question, I can not understand how this conversion would affect the pistol accuracy as state by two members earlier in this thread. Unless the 45LC is just more accurate due to the heavier bullet weights? or could it have something to do with the longer jump between cylinder and barrel throat but I would think the barrels rifling would negate this? The way the conversion is done (please see above video clip) should not cause the 45ACP rounds to be inaccurate and “opening the group up to twice it’s size from a random rest”as stated by a previous member.
What could cause this to happen? Enquiring minds want to know.

Thank you
Penmon AKA The Butchering Bubba

If you have any slop in a cylinder you will have accuracy issues. If you are wanting a carry gun and at those ranges it won't make a difference.

But since you said you are going to use it for a range gun. Don't you want to see how good you can shoot? Having 45acp's that are looser in the chamber than the 45 colt you will have accuracy issues. I have read that reaming the throats of a 45 colt cylinder makes the difference between 2" or 6" groups. I have not had those problems with my 45 colt. But just imagine the throat issue in nothing compared to using 45 acps in a 45 colt chamber. If you get a 625 that is a 45 acp revolver there are things that you check to get acceptable accuracy out of it. 45 acp cylinders have a step in the chamber for the case to head space on. That is very important in getting any kind of accuracy.

The bullet has to have a straight shot at the forcing cone and barrel to be accurate. The barrel will not solve the problem of long throats or loose chambers.

Finally, Cowboy action loads in 45 colt are much lighter than 45 acp loads given the same weight bullet.

Your gun, do what you please, BUT you asked and we are giving our opinions. My opinion is you are doing irreversable conversion to your gun and will gain nothing by doing it with Cowboy action loads availible.

John

John,
Did you go to the video link I booked marked in my post?
No cylinder reaming is to be done.
S&W says the bore of the cylinder for the 45APC and the 45LC are the same? I understand what you are saying and I understand how important cylinder to barrel alignment is but, but, but that still does not explain the members shooting results.Unless the conversion he had done messed with his alignment.
Please, look at the conversion process video, I know you are unfamiliar with this type of conversion by the questions you have asked through out this thread. I will still have a fully functioning 45LC, the conversion does not affect that.
Thank you
Penmon

Yea, I watched and read it all. I am just coming from this from the other end of the perspective. I understand your point of view. Respectfully I do not think you see mine.

Remember you asked for opinions and you got mine. Please feel free to disregard it totally or in part. No harm done here and do not feel you have to convince me in order to do your conversion.

Best of luck to you. I some others have had good results.

John

Hello penmon.
Being one of the guys that have a few dedicated Smith revolvers in 45 Colt
i guess I will weigh in here.

If I had one revolver and could not afford another I don't think I would hesitate to convert my one Smith in 45 Colt to also fire 45 a.c.p.

For a $100. bucks and NO effect on the original chamberings accuracy
I would say "why the hell not?"

Then I would document the accuracy results and see if it was worth it
for posterity sake.
Heck , I would appreciate a fresh perspective on the subject.

Now a days I only seem to shoot my revolvers out to 15 yards
and this is hardly a test of any kind of 'hunting' accuracy.

I own many Smiths in 45 caliber both 45 Colt and 45 A.C.P.

I did however recently purchase a Governor and have a review of IT
and it shoots 45 A.C.P. out to 15 yards (thats only 45 feet )
really well.


Governor and Associates. Range and pictures 12-31-11



http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-rev...-3-2012-a.html



Model of 1950 Target, 45 Colt, 'Mountain Revolver' My Best yet.



The Heavy Duty project; pictures are back 10 21 11, nearing completion


best of luck. I say do it and check back with us on the accuracy issue.


Allen frame

__________________
NRA cert.instructor&R.S.O.

If it is a .45acp, it needs to be a 1917 or a 1911. 'Nuff said........Best of luck in your choice. JMO

__________________
Go big or stay home

For my 3" 625 I got an extra cylinder in 45 Colt from Cylinder & Slide, had them cut it to fit the ACP frame. Cannot load extra long 45 Colt rounds but it will take any factory 45 Colt round. I just switch cylinders when I want to go with the 45 Colt.
I went through all this because I could not find a 3" 625 in 45 Colt. Immediately after I received my gun back from C&S I came across 2 in 45 Colt, with consecutive serial numbers! Of course I bought them also. THEN I find a pair of mountain guns, one in each caliber NIB. You S&W addicts know what I did then..............Great guns, I'm kind of a N frame lover anyway. Somewhere there must be a 12 step program.

S&W tends to cut their .45 Colt chambers on the sloppy side. When a .45 ACP is put into the chamber, the cartridge is somewhat of a loose fit. Depending on how sloppy the fit is, the ACP cartridge could move around enough that ignition is severely compromised. This is what happened when I had the conversion done to a Model 25-7 .45 Colt. Half of the .45 ACP cartridges misfired when shooting DA and accuracy was terrible. Never again will I attempt a similar conversion. My philosophy with .45 revolvers is if you want a .45 ACP, buy a S&W. If you want a .45 Colt, buy a Ruger.

Dave Sinko

I started my .45 Colt interests with a Ruger 5.5" .45 Blackhawk convertable. My next buy was an early 7.5" .454 SRH, followed by a 5.5" SS Bisley, a 4.6" BHG Vaquero, and a 5.5" SS Redhawk, all to launch .45 Colts with. I know what sloppy chambers and uneven/small chamber exit bores are like - I even have the reamer set to alleviate said problem. Nearly ten years ago, I added a new '01 vintage 625-7 MG in .45 Colt. Despite it's having only a 4" barrel, it beat all of the Rugers, tightness of group at 25yd shooting my similar reloads from sandbags. The Rugers have all been memories for some time. A minor point - that .454 SRH - scoped - actually grouped tighter with .454s at 50yd from smoked sand bags - it's slow rifling favored hyper fast .454s.

I traded the last Ruger .45 Colt - the Bisley - for a LN 625-6 MG. It groups nearly as well as my first MG - or a friend's newer model. I just haven't noticed 'sloppy' chambers in any .45 Colt S&W. I Know earlier Bangor Punta S&W .45 Colts were reknown for too-large chamber exit bores, but that's a different story - and documented. Modern MGs in .45 Colt have no faults I know of, other than the unstamped, ie, laser-etched, barrel writing fading with cleaning (Witness my earlier picture!).

The .45 Colt MG is a delight to shoot - a pleasure to own. You do have to be independently wealthy - or a reloader - to shoot them regularly. Buying Georgia Arms 'cowboy loads' for plinkers helps - and you amass empties. 225gr LSWCHP - or Speer 250gr Gold Dots - make it a great personal defense firearm. Be sure to get HKS #25-5 speedloaders.

Stainz

Wonder how this experiment panned out?

And given the magnificent accuracy of the 627PC that loads both 38/357 in the same chamber with or without moon clips, I wonder whether the rimmed case thereof saves some of the problem noted above.

Hoping to hear more of the conversion success.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

Me too. But I would add that a few months ago when I was trying to decide 45 Colt with the acp conversion or a straight up 45acp gun, I exchanged a few emails with Tom at TK. He told me specifically that I should not expect stellar accuracy from acp's in his conversion. I subsequently purchased a 625-8 PC (45acp) and could not be happier.

I shoot tons of 45acp and 454 Casull. Got rid of all of my 45 Colt stuff years ago (brass and dies). If I still had the 45 Colt stuff, I might have accepted the 45acp as reduced accuracy acceptable. If I am going to invest in a new case supply, it made more sense to go to an acp gun, and buy Auto Rim if I needed rimmed brass. The conversion does offer a pretty cool opportunity to shoot acp's in some really neat S&W 45 Colts on the market.

Craig

Look at the Governor's cylinder to see what a vestigial rim catching 'ring' looks like. Also - remember that a .45 Colt cylinder so-modified will mount moonclipped .45 ACPs - but not the thick-rimmed .45 Auto Rims. Only a cylinder with a flat cylinder input side designed for .45 ACP will load the .45 Auto Rim, whose thick rim is equal to the usual gap plus the moonclip thickness.

Stainz