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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 11-28-2011, 07:53 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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Default About those cocked barrel complaints.

Last August I purchased a new 625JM that came with the barrel over clocked by about 2.5 to 3 degrees, which is a lot. Zeroing the sighting required running the rear sight full left. Obviously, it was a candidate for warranty correction, however because I wanted to do a recessed crown on the barrel I decided to purchase a frame wrench and do it myself.

The barrel has now been crowned and re-mounted to the frame with perfect alignment with the frame. Took it out last Sunday to test shoot it. Accuracy was excellent but I now had to run the rear sight to the right, enough so that the right edge of the sight blade is now even with the right edge of the sight cylinder.

My conclusion is that with my particular 625 the barrel actually needs to be over clocked by about 1.5 degrees to have the rear sight centered. I'm not going to do that, as I found out it's not at all easy to "inch" these barrels into position, when they get tight they are darned tight, I would estimate that it's now torqued to about 50-60 ft.lbs.. I also have a mounting rail for my handgun scope that captures the front sight base so alignment is important for use of this rail. Sometime in the next month I plan to trying the 625 with the scope just to see how accurate it is.

The point of all this is that if you have a barrel that is a bit cocked, make SURE that you shoot it off a benchrest in single action and zero the sighting BEFORE you decide it's a factory mistake. It's quite possible that you may find that barrel is mounted in a position that allows you to have the rear sight near centered.

I know some may disagree with this, however I'm simply telling what I found with my 625. I also have a greater understanding in the difficulty in getting the barrel at the "perfect" position.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:18 PM
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Scooter, that seems to make sense. On the fixed sight guns the workmen could cut and file the rear sight as needed to get the gun shooting straight and if it was not perfectly centered -- well we all knew why.
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:41 PM
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My 65-2 has an overclocked barrel but, it is sighted in perfectly. i wouldnt change a thing.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:55 AM
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Scooter I feel your pain in regulating your barrel. Don't want to think about the attempts and time used on the barrel of my Colt SAA. Next time I'm going to rig up a degree wheel and pointer like you use to degree the cam on an engine.
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:06 AM
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Good info.

About half of my S&W's don't have barrels lined up right. But they all seem to shoot to point of aim (except for one).
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:08 AM
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But is that really an acceptable condition for a gun that is supposed to be - and usually is - high quality? S&Ws are not cheap imported copies of other revolvers and should shoot reasonably straight with the barrel installed correctly. As I said on another thread, canting the barrel to get a gun on target is like misaligning a car's front suspension to correct a pulling condition caused by a bad tire.

The more I read threads like this one, the more appreciative of my older Smith & Wesson revolvers I become and I'm at the point where I would pay more for a really nice used older gun than a brand new current production item.

Ed
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:58 AM
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I posted an inquiry about parameters for windage adjustment limits recently on the Smithing Forum. I have a new 686-6 4 inch and to get it zeroed I had to move the windage leaf to the far left edge of the sight base to get a zero. It just looks weird to have it so far to the left. However, it is zeroed and the leaf is still within the limits of the sight base. I have several older 586s and 686s and not one had to be adjusted that severely to get zeroed. It is a mild irritant and if I sent it back to Smith they would wonder what I am complaining about, given that it is zeroed with the factory installed barrel and sight.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:15 PM
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I haven't minded when the rear sight leaf can be adjusted to zero and stay within the sight frame. However, when the sight leaf has to extend beyond the sight frame, it needs to be addressed.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AveragEd View Post
But is that really an acceptable condition for a gun that is supposed to be - and usually is - high quality? S&Ws are not cheap imported copies of other revolvers and should shoot reasonably straight with the barrel installed correctly. As I said on another thread, canting the barrel to get a gun on target is like misaligning a car's front suspension to correct a pulling condition caused by a bad tire.

The more I read threads like this one, the more appreciative of my older Smith & Wesson revolvers I become and I'm at the point where I would pay more for a really nice used older gun than a brand new current production item.

Ed
^^^^ What he said ^^^^
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:46 PM
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Sounds like there may be more to the canted barrel story than there appears. Did you use a lathe to trim the barrel, what about the cylinder to barrel gap?
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:11 PM
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I looked at probably a dozen vintage smiths this morning and almost all of them had canted barrels. Most were cocked about 10 degrees one way or the other. The worst of the lot was a 28-2 which was probably 15 degrees. It wouldnt be a deal breaker for me.
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Old 12-01-2011, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titegroups View Post
Sounds like there may be more to the canted barrel story than there appears. Did you use a lathe to trim the barrel, what about the cylinder to barrel gap?
Because the barrel was fitted to the cylinder when I received my 625 there was no need to do any additional fitting. The thread pitch used for these barrels is 36 threads per inch so the effect of rotating it by only 3 degrees is quite minor. The way to determine the amount of change is to take 1/36 times 3/360, so the net linear change is only 0.0002 inch. Before I started the B/C gap was between 0.005 and 0.006 inch, and it still checks within that range.

I corrected the fit after crowning the barrel and was careful to get the alignment as perfect as possible. The reason I wanted it straight up was because the mounting rail I have runs the full length of the barrel and nests with the sight base. Because of this a cocked barrel would mean the mounting rail would end up cocked and I didn't want to deal with the sighting issues that might cause. However, I was also curious to see where the gun would shoot with the barrel perfectly aligned. There have been a lot of complaints recently about "over tightened" barrels and I wanted to see if this might be intentional. IMO it is intentional, because with a perfectly aligned barrel on my 625 I now have to run the rear sight way to the right. End result is that on my frame the barrel would need to be "over tightened" by about 1 1/2 degrees, halfway between where it was as delivered and where it is right now.

At this point I don't have any plans on trying to cheat the barrel over to center the rear sight. While it does look a bit odd with the rear sight blade sitting to the right there is still some range left to adjust it. In addition, setting the barrel straight to the frame is fairly easy because you can see when it's lined up. However, trying to set it to an exact rotation would require "eyeballing" it and I don't trust that I could do that and get it right.

As for those who think these guns should be absolutely perfect from the factory, you really need to think about that. It's an 800 dollar production revolver, not a hand assembled Custom. If you want a revolver that is an example of total perfection as delivered, buy a Korth. BTW, last time I saw a price on a Korth they were running about 12 thousand dollars. Fact is Perfection aint cheap, in fact it can be very expensive.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:13 PM
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As for those who think these guns should be absolutely perfect from the factory, you really need to think about that. It's an 800 dollar production revolver, not a hand assembled Custom. If you want a revolver that is an example of total perfection as delivered, buy a Korth. BTW, last time I saw a price on a Korth they were running about 12 thousand dollars. Fact is Perfection aint cheap, in fact it can be very expensive.

Well said!
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:22 PM
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Driver, I hear what you're saying but you're sounding like the American auto manufacturers in the 1980s. They constantly reminded us that their cars were mass-production vehicles and as such would not have perfectly aligned body panels, leak-free joints and no squeaks and rattles. Then the Japanese conquered their body rust issues and the rest is history.

Smith & Wesson is a notch or three above the cheaper imports in stature and used to also be one of the best in quality. Perhaps it can be said that the imports are taking their game up a notch or two - are their barrels on straight or canted? Or is S&W sliding backwards in quality?

Don't misunderstand - I'm a huge S&W fan but I was a General Motors dealership service manager for 38 years and watched us slide from the top to scrambling to catch up almost overnight.

Ed
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:38 PM
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I think my head is a little canted. This completely throws my linear regulation off. Are my Smith barrrels off or is my head off? I cannot tell

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Old 12-03-2011, 10:42 AM
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In the end the market place will determine how well they get assembled. Free markets are brutally efficient.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:05 PM
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I've watched these threads with some interest, and some amusement. Most of my revolvers show a little bit of "overclock", but the rear sights are pretty well centered to get on target.

I asked my local 'smith/dealer about it, since he was once a S&W Authorized Repair shop, and went through a 6 week training course at the factory, in addition to his prior gunsmith training. He said that that was the way they were trained to do it, within a range from pretty much right on to just a little over. Said that it has to do with the torsional force that the gun has when fired. When you think about it, it does make some sense. We all know that the rifling in the barrel imparts spin to the bullet, but if Newton was right, then there is an equal and opposite reaction to this force as well.

Frankly I don't care if the barrel is clocked as long as the gun peforms as it should. It is really not noticeable to most people, and if it is way off (but shooting well), I would wonder if the frame is straight.

I am kind of reminded of the time when I was a budding car enthusiast, and wondered to the Porche owner why his front wheels leaned in so much, sure didn't look right to me

ETA I have a 581 that shot consistently 2" to the left of the bull at 25 yds, decided that I'd see if the factory could correct it. They did, by tightening the barrel so that it's now slightly past TDC. Shoots right to point of aim now, too.
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Last edited by 2hawk; 12-03-2011 at 08:12 PM. Reason: add'l infor
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:51 PM
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I was in a gun store the other day -- they had a 3" 686+. Oh Boy, I thought. But when I looked at it the barrel was canted enough to readily notice when looking down the sights. Well, I didn't need that gun. If its barrel was straight, I might have bought it (it was priced at $719 new -- not that bad).

So, I understand that perfection ain't cheap, but I can sure wait for the next gun that at least isn't obviously imperfect.
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Old 12-30-2011, 12:07 AM
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Barrel overclocked? Sights canted? Wait until you're shooting your brand new 629 the first time and the rounds are tracking across the target as the barrel turns from the torque of the bullets engaging the rifling. Happened to me in the early 1980's. I haven't bought a new Smith & Wesson since.

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Old 12-30-2011, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Said that it has to do with the torsional force that the gun has when fired.
Sounds odd to me. If that were the case, then all the barrels would have to be canted precisely the same.

I think a more likely reason is that the there is some amount of deviation in the barrel threads in the frame. What may be actually happening is that the barrel is not perfectly square to the frame. It may be off less than 1 degree. That would make the gun shoot left or right and now the barrel has to be canted to compensate for it.

With modern manufacturing methods and 150 years experience, you'd think S&W could put a barrel on correctly.
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
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With modern manufacturing methods and 150 years experience, you'd think S&W could put a barrel on correctly.
I think they did solve the problem with the 2-piece barrels.

The market and nearly everyone I read on this forum rejected that solution.

Look at people talk about the accuracy of the 2-piece barreled model 620.
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Old 01-09-2012, 02:40 PM
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I saw a new 686 at local Bass Pro Shops the other day (they wanted over $800 for it BTW). It had a canted barrel. It was farther twisted than the barrel on my 25 year old model.

They've had at least 25 years to correct the problem. They (S&W) either don't care or, for some reason plan it that-a-way.
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:48 PM
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I have a 657 that I returned to factory last summer and was told all barrels come out of the factory with a canted barrel.They corrected mine and now rear sight is centered. I thought maybe I was the only one crookadated.
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