I've got the bug to purchase a J frame...don't know much about them at this point, so I thought I would get some input. From what I've read...looks like a model 36 would be a good choice for a .38 special. But from what I've seen so far the prices are all over the board. I personally think a model 60 in .357 is the way to go - versatile - but doesn't look like they are a cheep date...but like I said, I really don't much about the J frames.

Goal is to buy something that is fun to shoot, versatile for both the range, home protection and CC...Oh, and something the wife will like to shoot. What are your thoughts? Blued, nickle or stainless? I appreciate any input.


Pete

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Don't tread on me

The new 640 Pro. No IL.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y

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Still Running Against the Wind

J Frame??? All of 'em of course.

Nice looking piece, why is that better than a model 60?

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Don't tread on me

It has long been my dream to own a nice blue model 36. But for a versatile home defense/ sport revolver I love the model 60.

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

Yea, the 60 caught my eye as well, and the wife likes to be able to shoot SA on occasion.

Pete

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Don't tread on me

Obviously this is one mans opinion, but here goes..........

The best J-frame that S&W EVER built is the Model 60-7. The 60-7 was built in the mid 90's and was the first gun specifically heat treated for +P ammo. The front sight is wider, the trigger is wider and smooth (no grooves), the top strap slightly beefier and it was the strongest J-frame they ever made PRE- LOCK! It also has classic features like the pinned cylinder stop, the hammer mounted firing pin, the classic style cylinder release and Magna Walnut stocks. Did I mention there is NO lock?!! They are compact, light weight, fully controlable with even heavy +P ammo and are still available in excellent condition for less than a current production copy. They are also the smoothest and most well built J's they ever made.

Now the minuses regarding the newer J-Frames.......

They are made with the frame mounted firing pin, MIM (cast) parts, INTERNAL LOCK, rubber grips, integral (ugly) cylinder stop, heavier and some are chambered for .357 cartridges. Now you might say that being able to fire 357's out of a Chief's Special is a plus.......that is until you actually fire 357's out of one. The J-Frames are not really practical for the 357 cartridge, and most people that fire them in a J frame only do it once. 9 times out of 10 they will usually use +P loads, so that being the case, why carry the extra weigh and bulk?

Basically the 60-7 is everything you want and nothing you don't in a perfect CCW weapon.

YMMV

Regards,
Chief38

Pete, Check out the Model 60 Pro.

I think it'd be hard to go wrong with a 649-2. This is the stainless steel Bodyguard (the real Bodyguard) in .38 Special. IIRC the -2 was the last version before the J-Magnum .357 frame. It has the wider front sight and rear notch as well as being pre-MIM (I believe) and pre-lock. It can be fired SA or DA (though my own personal preference would be to convert it to DAO), yet the shrouded hammer is snag resistant when carried in either a holster or pocket, though the steel frame may be a little heavy for pocket carry. With good grips and standard pressure ammo it should be easy to shoot if one or both of you are recoil sensitive, yet can handle +P ammo if more power is desired. Even if neither of you are recoil sensitive the steel frame will make practice more comfortable and +P ammo will be easier to control in a steel J-frame than one of the airweights. Lately I've been thinking that the 649-2 would make for a great all-around J-frame.

However, since my own personal preference is for DAO, I would probably choose a 640 no-dash in .38 Special for myself, and it has pretty much been my "Holy Grail" gun for the past year.

Chief-

I concur, but S&W told me that the first Plus P-Rated J is the M-60-4 full lug three-inch one. I love the M-60-7 as a true snub, but the M-60-4 is a better single handgun, if one has just one, and better in the woods, if you go there.

Any J-frame should be stainless. It's just the real world choice for a working gun. The Airweights and Ti guns are a niche item.

Texas Star:

The 60-4 is a fine gun as well, but to the best of my knowledge (and verified by Supica's book) the -4 was not heat treated specifically for the +P's. Even without the heat treating it will still handle limited amounts of the hotter ammo. I have fired plenty of the +P's through other Chief's Special revolvers that are plain M60 no dash's and they are still tight and in perfect time. I just wouldn't feed them a steady diet of them as you are able to with the -7.

I own a 3" bull barrel variation as well, and for field (woods) use I actually agree with you, the gun you speak of is handier, however for CCW I like the 2" 60-7 as the best package.

I own a bunch of different variations of Chief's Specials in all different barrel lengths, configurations, dash #'s, etc, and I suppose it come down to personal preference. For me, I think the 60-7 is the best there ever was in a Chief's Special but America is a great Country and we can all decide what is best for our individual needs, likes and wants.

Regards,
Chief38

60PRO or a 60.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Chief-


That book has some errors. I can only tell you what the factory told me when I called and asked in my capacity as a gun writer preparing an article on the matter. Of course, factory spokesmen have also made errors.

I don't in any way dispute your feeling that the -7 is a superior snub. I miss one that I traded for an SP-101 and plan to replace it. But the -4 is a better trail and all-round gun, giving higher velocity and holding steadier in the hand and offering adjustable sights. The snub can be hidden better, including in a hollowed-out book and on the person. I think you're making the same points, so we agree.

We aren't differing. I'm just saying that each gun is best, depending on what you want at the time.

BTW, I was told that the -4 had digested at least 10,000 rounds of Plus P (they didn't say what kind) and was still tight. This was a factory trials gun. (This does NOT apply to the earlier blued M-36-6, a similar gun. It does not have the endurance package.)

I really don't want to say much more, or we'll start a run on -7's, and I need to get another before the prices climb or the supply dries up.

JMO

Perhaps not better, I just like it. I have it in the 327 Federal Mag with 6 shots rather than 5. I reload so ammo is not a problem. The factory Speer 327 FM 115 gr come close to 357 Mag ballistics without the full blast of the 357 Mag. If folks don't buy into that then consider it a 9mm. I have a older 640 Gemini Custom in 357 and the new one is nicer looking. Stainless is forever.

Any J frame is good. I like the DA only no hammer as it makes for a better carry piece. The sights on the 640 pro are actually usable. A better "all around J"

As to MIM well that's a bunch of pages of discussion. The tolerances of the new SW's are better than the older ones. I have plenty of the old ones and like them as much as anyone. Firing pin differences? So?, things change. Probably most SW forum members drive newer cars and have CD players and MP3's rather than 8 tracks.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I will say this. A used all steel j frame is usually substantially cheaper than a new all steel j frame. I have a Model 60-4 and a Model 60-15. Not only was the 60-4 $200 cheaper, even with the normal wear & tear on a 19 year old gun it looks better than the BNIB 60-15. Plus, the model 60-4 is more accurate.

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NRA Benefactor

I own both a 357 Mod 60 and a 38 spl Mod 36 both with the 3 inch barrels. I highly recommend trying to find a J-frame with the 3 inch barrel as it gives a better sight radius for range and home defense. I really like any 3 inch barreled J-frame for accuracy and they just balance so well. Good Luck with you're search.

My nickeled Model 37 is the best J-Frame out there because it's mine and in my jacket pocket as I type. (It's backing up the stupid Glock my agency issued instead of letting me carry a revolver.)

ECS

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

The Model 49 Bodyguard, the real one, or the 649

The 640 no dash.

My blued Model 37 is the best J-Frame out there because it's not yours and lying in the driveway as I type. But really, look at how well MY blued 37 has maintained it's pristine NIB appearance after being dragged behind my truck on a dirt road and carried every day for a long time
Just joking,
Peace,
gordon
But I do love that little gun and it is truly an airweight weapon. Around here a person can pick one of these up a lot cheaper than some of the other guns mentioned, and it works great.

Attached Images

m37 original condition.jpg (49.0 KB, 390 views)

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better have that checked

My two favorite J-frame revolvers are the model 36 and the model 60 with the 3 inch barrel.

The 640-1. Fun to shoot. Finish that won't peel off. Frame isn't prone to cracking. No MIM parts. Everything you need in a J-frame and nothing you don't. Regards 18DAI

mine is a model 60 2'' loaded with 158gr hollow points and 5.0 gr unique an honest 825 fps over the chrony, I'd hate to be on the other side when she goes off! super cool!!

The Model 49 is my favorite.

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The American dream is alive

There was an article written in the late 70's or early 80's by Skeeter Skelton (a well known and well thought of gun writer for a few magazines at the time) who did a torture test on the model 36 (no dash). I don't recall exactly how many thousands and thousands of +P's he shot in that little gun, but after the testing he could find absolutely no ill effects from the ammo. Not that I would necessarily recommend that, but it's certainly nice to know that the little buggers can take a lickin' and keep on ticken'!!

Texas Star:

Yes you are correct in the fact that the SCSW book does have a slight amount of errors (but VERY FEW) and I know for a fact that the Factory has made their share of errors in the past as well; hey we are all human!

Again, for field use in the woods, the 3" is a better J Frame, but for CCW I'd go with the 2" if for nothing else..... concealability.

Chief38

The basic mod 36 and/or 60 are nearly identical guns, just one is blued carbon steel and one is stainless steel. If you plan to carry the gun and/or use it a lot, stainless is easier to clean and shows wear less. If it is for 2-3 times a month range use and home protection, the 36 will do as well at a lower cost. Forget the ".357" option, if your wife intends to use it. She definitely won't like using any 357 in that light a gun, the recoil, noise, and blast is brutal. If want to please your wife, get a 3" barrel in whichever one you choose, as they are easier to hit the target with, and have less felt recoil.
Do yourself a favorl, and find a range where you can rent a couple guns to shoot and try them wit your wife. She will tell you which ones not to buy.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Another vote for the 3" Model 60. The extra 1" and heavy underlug barrel make it as gentle to shoot as my 4" K-frame, and just as accurate. It's one J-frame you'll enjoy taking to the range. Also useful for home defense, concealed carry, and the trail.

I have model 60 3" with adjustable sights, model 638, model 642 and a model 640 all of them are very good revolvers in my view. All of them are more accurate than I am. All are decent ccw guns with the right holster. I can shoot the model 60 more accurately due to the longer barrel and better sights but I carry the 642 most of the time.

I've got a 45 year old model 36, like new, and a 2 year old model 642. Both are excellent guns and I carry one or both all of the time. No way you can beat a j-frame!

I wouldn't mind owning a 649-3, 357 Bodyguard.

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Sure you did

I can see that your blued 37 has seen a lot of love!! By that I mean you use your gun - that's the way it should be. You get a gun you love - it goes with you all the time and gets some love wearing in. All my guns are shooters - I go out of my way to purchase shooters when I can cause I don't want to put the very first ding in one - I prefer someone else did that so I don't feel so bad when I do an idiot move and the next ding shows up!

From the looks of all the posts, the stainless is getting more plugs than the blued - even though I think the blued guns are better looking, stainless does make good "long term sense".
Pete

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Don't tread on me

I agree the .357 option is a non issue - especially with my wife. She has a LCR in .357 and has only fired 5 rounds of .357 thru it - you know when you do. Everything I read and feedback I get points to +p in a short barrel is so close in velocity that .357 is mute with no advantage.

She is happy with the Ruger, but it's not a Smith and she constantly brings that fact up to me. Usually something like this "how come your guns are Smiths and when you finally buy one for me it's a Ruger?" Getting so I'm tired of answering that question - so I'm thinking I'll pick up a J frame for a nice gift - I can always sell the LCR - but it's a fine piece as well.

Sure do appreciate the feedback guys. Thanks

Pete

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Don't tread on me

My favorite is the M&P 340 with CT 405's. Mine has been in my pocket everyday all day for a couple years. Finish is worn on all the front edges but I think it gives it character. The cylinder release is the color of rust from sweat, it's really hard to keep rust off the cyl release for me. It's got pocket lint all over and in it but it's never let me down. Probably shot over 300 rounds of medium loaded 357 and twice that of 38. I've tried carrying other pistols from single stack 380, 9mm, and 45 to Glock 19 and 26. They all end up in the safe and the 340 always ends up in my pocket. I thought about buying another one instead of carrying a reload. Would be nice to have two at once haha.

I'll agree with this JMHO, but there is no better made J-frame than the 640-1.

I don't know what the best J-Frame is of the those we have but do know that my 36-2 is by far my favorite.





When I picked this one up it was "Like New in the Box" but I'm slowly working on that by applying some, good, honest holster wear.

This 36 has been worked by Pistolsmith, Teddy Jacobson, Actions by "T" and is as good a gun as I could ask for.
It's as smooth & accurate as the day is long........

No question, the very best j-frame ever is......

My 340 M&P no/lock! (no, I am not biased)

I would love to get the new 640 Pro....
All stainless with some great sights, and that cool looking grooves machined into the barrel!

I love all the j-frame models, and appreciate the many classic models that guys on this forum show off!

The best answer, whatever one you have in your holster.

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Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

I have an M&P340 that I carry a lot but I am beginning to lean back toward one of my Model 60 no dashes. There's something about that little all steel flamethrower.

I traded a S&W 642 snubby for a S&W 60-4 3-inch just to lighten the recoil. Boy, was I blessed. It's smooth and accurate and has become my bedside piece.

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USN WWII Korea
NRA

I really love my pre-36 and 36-1 J frames. I dont think you could do much better : )

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Cliff

I'm rather fond of my 60-9. It carries well and packs full house .357 power in an all stainless package.

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Northwest Ohio

This is a tough decision.

I have 6 J Frames.
36 no dash 1-7/8"
36 no dash 3"
442-2 1-7/8"
60-7 1-7/8" which I picked up a few months ago while working a gun show. LNIB with papers for $300.00. I didn't know what I had there until I read this post about the 60-7. Thanks.
640 no dash 1-7/8"
649 no dash 1-7/8"

The 649 is probably my favorite of them all.
It is the only one I purchased brand new (around 1988) and carried it for many years.

All the other J Frames were deals I picked up working gun shows. I never bought them to carry, but the deals were too good to pass up.
The 60-7 was the most expensive, and the rest were in the mid $200.00 range.

I would say my least favorite out of all of them is the 442-2.
I just don't like airweights. I like the feel of a steel gun.
Buy hey, that is just me.

Stu

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NRA Benefactor/Cert Instructor

Chief-

I have a separate thread here now about the M-60-4. It goes into more detail, but I'll say here that I did later check the book, Second Edition, and it DOES SAY that the gun IS made for Plus P warranty. Page 179. Maybe you have another edition, or were going from memory?

No slight is intended, although some individuals tried to portray that intent before Hand Ejector deleted some mean- spirited remarks and moved the thread to this forum. I, too, have lapses about what a reference might say, so I looked it up. The book info does jive with what the factory told me.

I knew Skeeter Skelton, and I recall his various endurance tests. I missed the one for the M-36, I guess. I do recall that a LW Colt Commander .45 had some frame damage after 5,000 rounds. Skeeter fired those amounts of ammo with several assistants, and they went at it pretty hard. Had the guns received average use, they might have done better. That some performed so well is impressive.

I certainly agree with you that the M-60-7 snub is easier to conceal. I enjoyed your fine posts. Both guns are at the top of their class, I believe.

Any pre-lock J-frame is a good choice. Personal preference will probably dictate which model number.

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Lang May Yer Lumb Reek.

I have one pre-IL - my latest buy - a 4" 651 (center, right). I also have one 'post-IL' - my latest new purchase - the 632 Pro (bottom, left). The finest 60 I have ever held - or shot? My 60-15 60 Pro (upper, left). The most fun plinker - and most frugal to shoot? My 3" 63 (lower, right).



My most important J-frame - and only one not shown - still sporting it's OEM rubber boots - is my first J-frame - now five years old - a 642-2 - with it's IL. It was where it always is when I took the picture. If I have pants on, it's in a Mika pocket holster and in my pocket. I like the improvements - and neat offerings - of the modern J-frames. While I don't like it, the IL won't dissuade me from a S&W revolver purchase. YMMV - and that's okay with me.

Stainz

PS I like the '60 Pro' grips... can you tell?

I just got a M63 and saw you numerous postings of the "Pro" grips, I think I am sold.

I also have a 442 that I think would look cool "pimped out" with some fake pearl or ivory grips.

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Be obscure, clearly.

Texas Star:

First off I just want to say thank you for your respect and politeness on our differences of opinion.... that is what makes this Country GREAT! There are a few on this and other Forums that seem to take out their frustrations in their text against other peoples opinions & statements and naivety from new members. This Forum along with others, is meant for enjoyment, information sharing and learning, and attitudes should be left behind.

That said, yes I believe we do have different SCSW books. Mine is the first edition and was published in 1996. On page 179 in my book are Long Guns from Japan. On page 133 it gives the details of the Changes which I am listing exactly as written:

Changes:
60 1965 introduction
1969 begin "R" serial prefix @ R1
60-1 1972 3" S, heavy barrel version, ltd. prod. of 171
1982 delete pinned bbl.
1986 Special run - w/ adjustable sights
60-2 1987 3" bbl for NYPD
60-3 1988 new yoke retention system
60-4 1990 ltd. prod. of target model w/ full under lug
60-5 1990 DA only for NYPD
60-6 1990 Lady Smith version
60-7 1990 new sight width, heat treatment package
60-8 1990 new sight width for NYPD & heat treatment package
1994 change extractor, synthetic grips

I would not doubt that your edition which came after mine does have some corrections in it. When Supica & Nahas wrote this I am sure they were overwhelmed with facts, numbers, date, etc, and their info is only as good as the info supplied by S&W. Since their history goes back so far, I am sure there are plenty of other mistakes as well which might be corrected in the next edition.

The other thing here is that S&W (and I have it in writing in the form of a Factory letter) stated that any revolver chambered for the .38 special would handle limited amounts of +P ammunition as long as it had a stamped model number in the yoke area. That would cover all the 60's even the ones with no dash as well as a slew of other models they made.

Your book may have different information and I certainly would love to learn from any corrected info in your book. The real reason I never bought the new addition SCSW is that I am old school and I am really not interested in any Smith & Wesson Revolver produced much after the late 1990's.... you know, locks, MIM, synthetics, etc.

Anyway, I will agree weather or not someone has the 60-4 or the 60-7, they are both great revolvers, and for field use - open carry in the woods I will agree the 3" underlug model has the advantage, but for CCW and HOT +P's I think it's the 60-7.

Respectfully,

Chief38

Stainz i felt a common thread in your collection just couldnt quite put my finger on it

Can a .22 come out and play ?

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JR

I prefer my 340Sc with 357 mag Hormady 125gr self defense. I don't know what all the fuss about recoil is about.

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'THE HYPNOTIZED NEVER LIE"