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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 02-07-2012, 01:34 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Default ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!

I have had alot of lead fouling in my 2009 IL, MIM model 60 following a wadcutter diet.
The same ammo runs through my model 686-3 (1983), model 10-5,28-2 and19-3 without anything more than I might expect.

The model 60 on the other hand has significant amounts of lead in the first inch or so of the barrel. A brass brush and soaking over night with solvent doesn't begin to touch it whereas the older guns clean right up.

Has anyone else had this occur with ECM rifled guns and, if so, what has been your solution, other than switching to jacketed bullets?

Last edited by peppercorn; 02-07-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:25 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Maybe I need to reword my inquiry.

Does anyone have excessive leading issues with a 1995, the year S&W started using the ECM rifling process, or later manufacture gun.
This of course would be a relative comparison to pre-1995 manufacture date.

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Old 02-07-2012, 06:05 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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I've heard some complaints about the new style rifling regarding accuracy and excessive leading but I haven't experience either personally.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:33 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photoman44 View Post
I've heard some complaints about the new style rifling regarding accuracy and excessive leading but I haven't experience either personally.
Thanks Photo, do you shoot lead in a '95 or later gun?

As far as accuracy goes all of my modern guns shoot laser straight so I have no complaints there.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:49 PM
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I had major leading issues with my 620 the one time I shot some Blazer 158 gn LRN in it. Took about 10-12 hours to get the barrel clean and I won't repeat that mistake.

Now, what I have read is the you can shoot cast bullets in the ECM barrels BUT lubrication is CRITICAL. Use the wrong lube or an unlubricated bullet and the leading will be beyond belief. Since I don't reload at this point I cannot recomend any particular lube, all I can recomend is shooting jacketed bullets.

As for the accuracy produced with the ECM barrels, I can't complain at all. Personally, I believe that my 620 is capable of shooting to 1/2 inch at 50 yards, with it's tensioned barrel it's a 4 inch rifle when I'm shooting well. I also have an ECM barrel in my 6 1/2 inch 610 and normally group it between 2 1/2 and 3 inches at 35 yards from a rest using a reflex sight. One of these days I'll mount my scope on the 610 just to see what it can do, personally I suspect it'll probably shoot between 1 1/2 and 2 inches at 50 yards. IMO the ECM barrels are at a minimum just as accurate as the older broached barrels and it's possible they may be more accurate. One positive for the ECM process is that it seems to be much more consistent from barrel to barrel than the older method of rifling.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:55 PM
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Default Lead

I reload with 'moly' coated bullits, I don't have the problem you do.
I don't know if the moly is the answer or if I just don't have the problem.
Good luck
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:00 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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scooter,
Thanks for the detailed response.

I didn't even know about this type of rifling until recently. I just assumed I had bad luck with cast bullets in my model 60, which still has excessive, unsuccesfully removed lead in the barrel as I type.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:05 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Ive got four ecm barrel guns and ive pirated a technique from someone on this forum (cant remember who gets the credit for making this up).
I shoot almost exclusively lead and even with a decent lube grove filled leading happens, always in the last inch or so of barrel.

The FIX: Cut a furniture pin or some dowel down to the barrel size and then cover the dowel with a latex glove finger or similar piece of latex. Place the newly made plug into the forcing cone very firmly and place a small rag under the plug to catch spills, ( barrel should be completely verticle). next fill the barrel with a solution of half white vinegar and hydrogen proxide, ( check for leaks and possibly adjust your plug). Refill barrel as necessary and wait a half hour, then dump out all your lead. After this make sure to lube your barrel before storing or shooting and make sure your catch rag didnt let any spill into your frame.

THis is perfectly safe for all revolvers and cleans it better than anything else.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:55 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peppercorn View Post
Thanks Photo, do you shoot lead in a '95 or later gun?

As far as accuracy goes all of my modern guns shoot laser straight so I have no complaints there.
Not much. I had a supply of Federal 158gr SWC's that I shot through some newer 642's and 442's. I reload plated bullets for indoor range shooting so don't have a lot of experience with pure lead bullets.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:10 PM
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If you load your own, shake your bullets in Alox. Makes a huge difference. One way or the other, this stuff gets the lead out better than anything else I've tried http://www.frontiermetalcleaner.com .
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:06 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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I shoot only lead in mdl. 21/22-4/24-8(all EDM rifled). I use my air cooled wheel weights lubed with a homemade mix of 60% canning wax/40% commode seal. I do not have any leading problems. 45acp load=5 gr #231/230 gr\44 spl=7'5 gr unique/250 gr.
Usual cleanup is a few swipes with a nylon or copper brush followed by a swab.
Maybe the bullets you're using are very soft or undersized for your barrel.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:45 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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I have several of the newer Smith revolvers including a 625-8, a Model 520, a 642, and a 629 Performance Center Light Hunter. They ALL give exemplary accuracy with my home cast bullets (lubed with White Label Carnauba Red). This is with full house loads, also.

Bullets must be sized to the cylinder throats, must be of the proper hardness, and must be loaded correctly.

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Old 02-09-2012, 12:15 AM
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I fire lap my guns with Wheeling fire lap kit. I shoot 99.9% cast bullets, some are my own made with love and many are just mass produced lead.

Try the fire lapping to prevent lead buildup, if you get lead the easiest way I found to get lead out is the Outers Foul out system.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:16 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Default Caution is advised with the peroxide and vinegar...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-g View Post
Ive got four ecm barrel guns and ive pirated a technique from someone on this forum (cant remember who gets the credit for making this up).
I shoot almost exclusively lead and even with a decent lube grove filled leading happens, always in the last inch or so of barrel.

The FIX: Cut a furniture pin or some dowel down to the barrel size and then cover the dowel with a latex glove finger or similar piece of latex. Place the newly made plug into the forcing cone very firmly and place a small rag under the plug to catch spills, ( barrel should be completely verticle). next fill the barrel with a solution of half white vinegar and hydrogen proxide, ( check for leaks and possibly adjust your plug). Refill barrel as necessary and wait a half hour, then dump out all your lead. After this make sure to lube your barrel before storing or shooting and make sure your catch rag didnt let any spill into your frame.

THis is perfectly safe for all revolvers and cleans it better than anything else.
This has been discussed here before:
"...1 part hydrogen peroxide and 1 part vinegar is called ‘The Dip’ and used to clean suppressors. The dip will destroy aluminum.

The dip really should be avoided as it produces lead acetate(toxic). This stuff is absorbed through the skin and is a huge health risk..."

Hydrogen Peroxide to remove lead ?

Chore Boy or bronze wool wrapped around an old bore brush is a highly effective way to remove lead from a barrel. As far as making a barrel less prone to lead, I have used the felt pellets sized to the bore available from Brownells with some Bore Shine, or Mother's Mag polish, and lapped the barrels a bit. Seems to make them far less likely to foul after that.

On the same track, if you have any copper fouling in the barrel and then run lead through it, it will really foul up badly. If I shoot any jacketed bullets in a gun that will see lead, I use the same pellets and bore cleaner to make sure all the copper is out. I have a Foul-Out as well, but find the pellets and bore cleaner to be faster and just as effective.

I wouldn't be without these anymore now that I've used them:
WEAPONS CARE SYSTEM PELLETS - Brownells
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:18 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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My 696 had horrendous leading with lead bullets and any lube I could think of. I finally switched to copper plated lead bullets made by X-Treme Bullets. No leading and shoots as straight as a laser.
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:45 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Cast bullet performance depends on sizing them correctly to your gun but they must be cast of an appropriate alloy for your intended loads. Leading in forcing cone and beginning of barrel are indications of blow by. This is caused by bullets being undersized - or they are to hard for your load and can't slug up to fit chamber dia. You need a softer alloy or more pressure to help them bump up. This should help with your leading issues
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:32 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Hey 2hawk, The dip is a health risk. However, I wear latex gloves during the process and once it has removed the lead from the barrel I imidiatly throw away the liquid. Calling it a "huge health risk" is an overstatement. If your a lead reloaded like myself lead is used for casting and reloading and with proper safeguards will not raise your lead levels. The dip can be made inert by adding sulfuric acid which will reform the lead into a solid for filtration and safe disposal.

THe DIP works in 10-30 minutes and I never have changed a batch so the gentleman in your post who you quote is a bit misinformed. Feel free to look up Lead Acetate and then quote me a source.


CWH44300; I have that problem with my cast wheel weights (thier half the price of lead). My bullets drop about 22bhn and shooting them out of my snub 38's produces leading. I can fire those same bullets out of my 357 mag with no leading. So my experience is right in line with what your saying.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:10 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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dan-g, no issue with your methods, just your recommendation without any warnings of possible risks. There was a time I looked into de-leading suppressors that way, and decided that there were safer methods available. Lead acetate is many times more toxic than lead, and failing to include that information is irresponsible.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:52 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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It appears that the ECM rifling, which was started in 1995, may increase leading.
I don't reload as of yet but hope to very soon, as witnessed in another thread over in reloading.
For now I think I will get some of the 'plugs' 2hawk recommended and polish the barrel once I get the lead removed.

roadgunner,
Hotlapping looks interesting and maybe along the lines of polishing the bore but with obvious differences.

pinkymingeo and 2hawk,
It looks like you both have luck with similar processes when removing lead. I will start with Chore Boy as it is softer and move to the frontier product if needed.

Thanks for the input everyone.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:38 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Hello, I don't know if the ECM barrels lead easier than the older style but removing the lead is quite simple without resorting to various witches brews. Take a look at the following post and in particular the third post by member rct269. I have followed his advice and it works great, seems to even work better than my Lewis Lead Removal tool although the Lewis tool works better on the forcing cone. lead in barrel
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:56 AM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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My 629-6 gives me nothing but a headache with leading. I started with .429", went to .430" and may be trying .432" as a final resort. If I can't shoot lead in it without the headache then it's headed for restoring to factory specs and to the sale rack.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:18 PM
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Default ECM Rifling - 2 questions

Has anyone tried lapping a barrel with ECM rifling?

Does S&W ECM 22 lr barrels?
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimc00 View Post
Has anyone tried lapping a barrel with ECM rifling?

Does S&W ECM 22 lr barrels?
Yes, I had alot of trouble with lead until I did two things...one was lap the bore with JB Bore Bright until it shines like a mirror. {when looking at the surface of the bore with a borescope} Two was to cut a Taylor throat in all three EDM barreled guns I own. No more lead trouble at all, in fact I haven't had to "delead" the bores on any of them in a year worth of shooting cast bullets. The surface of the bore as new appears bead blasted in a borescope and I believe this helps lead stick. The forcing cones were really rough and chattered as well which I am sure didn't help anything. I have never had an accuracy problem with the newer barrels, all three guns are very accurate groupers. The top of the lands appear radiused not flat, this may contribute to some leading as well but if the surface is mirror smooth it gets harder for anything to stick. Takes a little doing but worth it to me.
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Old 08-15-2020, 09:47 AM
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Default A better bullet lube

I have one IL revolver, an M617 10 shot 22 LR. It leaded with enthusiasm -- shoot 50 rounds and there is a real problem. After I finished reamed the cylinder of all my 22 LR revolvers, leading stopped.

I believe my other S&W guns are pre-1995, calibers include 9 MM, 38 Spl, 357 mag, 40 S&W, 44 mag, 45 ACP. I shoot very few handgun jacketed or plated bullets, but 98% home cast and lubed lead bullets. I've used various mixtures of paraffin, bee's, and candle waxes mixed with Johnson's paste wax or Alox. What I learned that eliminated leading in WC and semi-wadcutter bullets, regardless of caliber or velocity, was the addition of Dexron 3 automatic transmission fluid.

I took what ever lube batch I had, a full 3# metal coffee can, heated it on a hot plate outdoors, poured enough to 3/4 fill a 1 quart pot, added 1/4+ to 1/2- cup of ATF. Stirred the mixture on low to medium heat for 10 minutes, then poured into "my" 9" x 13" aluminum cake pan. I than placed the cake pan in the garage refrigerator to harden. After an hour of cooling, the entire block fell out of the cake pan.

I am not going to expound on throat diameter, bore diameter, exact lube mixtures or proportions, or alloy composition. All that is on the Cast Bullet Forum. I'm just stating that adding ~
10% ± ATF to my lube eliminated all leading in pistol calibers.

I have loaded 40 rounds of 45-70 using this lube (compared to "factory" rifle lube) and had no leading in a 32" barrel with excellent accuracy at 100 yards in a Taylor's Arms Sharp's replica Quigley.

Sorry for being a windbag, I just wanted to offer my solution to leading with home-cast bullets.
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Old 08-15-2020, 09:57 AM
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I read through this old thread and never learned what ECM stands for.
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:27 AM
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It's ElectroChemical Machining. Similar to EDM, Electrical Discharge Machining.
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:56 PM
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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How Electrochemical Machining Works - YouTube

The above is a link to a very brief explanation. Very interesting...
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Old 08-15-2020, 02:13 PM
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flagman1776 flagman1776 is offline
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Back when qualifications were shot with low bid 38 reloads... invariably soft swaged bullets. I learned to wipe down the gun inside and out... with BreakFree CLP before shooting. Especially bore and chambers. A "wet" patch then a "dry" patch leaving just a film. The fouling would be on top of the film and almost wipe off with a paper towel. I think I learned the trick from a gun mag... most likely Am. Handgunner.
After our Armourer (and friend) saw me do it. He tried it. At the next qualification, BreakFree was available in a pump sprayer.
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Old 08-15-2020, 07:56 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Peppercorn,
TIP
I use flitz ecological non toxic formula to remove lead. Works great no fumes and safer to surface. I was looking for more user safe products and found this formula is pretty good.

Once your barrel is clean inspect with a light and magnifier.

S&W had some 60s that had non finished barrels mistakenly installed around the end of 2008.
Background
I have a 60-14 manufactured at the end of 2008, I bought it new in Jan 2009.
It had a bad barrel.
I inspected it visually but no light or magnifier.

Problem
Would not group. Reason, the barrel was not finished . The rifling and crown has very hard to detect uneven surface. Looked like thin film with wrinkles.
Remedy
S&W sent the mailer and replaced the barrel.
New barrel is dead on accurate and has no leading problems with commercial ammo.

Your barrel may be OK and it could be your ammo. But if the same ammo does not lead with other S&W revolvers , I would take a closer look at that 60.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 08-16-2020 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:13 PM
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Jason Demond Jason Demond is offline
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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I have a roughly 1998/99 manufactured 686-5 with a 6" barrel. She's had lead shot through her for 20 years, and leads no more or less, than a conventional rifled barrel.

I run a Lewis through each chamber twice, and down the barrel twice, swab with solvent, dry swab, and an oily patch to finish.
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:02 PM
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JDinAZ JDinAZ is offline
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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interesting. had a feller in phx i buy ammo from tell me one time to run a handfull of jacketed thru it before cleaning and itd push the fouling out. never tried it but the logic of it makes sense. all i run is factory jacketed or plated ammo so i dont really get any leading issues
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Old 08-16-2020, 01:55 PM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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My model 69 shoots lead without leading.
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Old 08-17-2020, 02:26 PM
TMan51 TMan51 is offline
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ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?! ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flagman1776 View Post
Back when qualifications were shot with low bid 38 reloads... invariably soft swaged bullets. I learned to wipe down the gun inside and out... with BreakFree CLP before shooting.
Did that affect POI at all?
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:47 PM
growr growr is offline
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My 625 JM leaded very badly with H&G#68 bullets that I sized at .453, lubed with Alox, used 6 grains of Unique......and in about 3-4 cylinders downrange the bore was almost a smooth bore.

Had to use Dad's stash of Mercury to get to the bottom of it......now all I shoot in it are 230 FMJ's.....wasn't going to go through THAT again!!

Randy

PS. The exact same round in my 25-2 6" barrel shoots extremely well.....different rifling technique.

Last edited by growr; 08-17-2020 at 05:48 PM.
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