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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:04 AM
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Default 442-1 & polygonal rifling

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I've two questions for you. Number one is that I bought a model 442-1 last year without the IL. While looking through my copy of the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" It gave the dates of manufacture of around 1999 to 2001 and then the 442-2 with the IL came out. Does that mean that my gun was in storage somewhere since that time? Or did S&W make a new batch without the IL and mark them 442-1 because of the lack of the IL?
I've also been hearing that S&W has gone to polygonal rifling in newer guns. Can anyone tell me when that change occured? I only own 2 S&W's that are newer. The 442-1 I mentioned above and a 696 no dash. Thanks in advanced I've learned a lot about S&W's from this forum.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:18 PM
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Starting in the mid to late 1990's, Smith & Wesson changed the way they rifled the barrels. Instead of broach rifling, they use the ECM process.
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Last edited by photoman; 02-09-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:33 PM
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H&K uses polygonal rifling. Users report many advantages such as improved bullet sealing, velocity, accuracy, easier cleanup, and longer barrel life. I believe that S&W began using ECM rifling in 1993. Is this what you are referring to by your use of the term, "polygonal rifling" ? Some users complain about excessive leading (see the thread in this section of the forum below). I have not personally experienced this. Here is a link that describes the Electro Chemical Machining process.......Firearms History, Technology & Development: Rifling: Manufacturing: Electro Chemical Machining
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenny_D View Post
Or did S&W make a new batch without the IL and mark them 442-1 because of the lack of the IL?
^Pretty sure this is the case.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
I believe that S&W began using ECM rifling in 1993.

Interesting note: My 1996 Model 37 has broach rifling.
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:01 PM
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I've got a 442-1 NIL. Serial#CBS518xx. When was mine made, and is it one that came after the -2's? I'd like to know more about this story.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CIsland View Post
I've got a 442-1 NIL. Serial#CBS518xx. When was mine made, and is it one that came after the -2's? I'd like to know more about this story.
I just bought a new 442-1 and a new 642-1 yesterday. One has a late November 2011 date on the shell envelope and the other has a January 2012 date on the shell envelope. They are quietly making them both ways it would seem.

Here's the greater mystery to me: the 442-1 came in the same blue plastic box that we've all been used to seeing for years, but the 642-1 came in an old fashioned looking dark blue cardboard box! Serial numbers were factory correct and matched the gun on each box. What's up with that?
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:52 PM
Az. revolver fan Az. revolver fan is offline
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Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certified Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.

Last edited by Az. revolver fan; 02-09-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az. revolver fan View Post
Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certfied Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.


ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !!
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:43 PM
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ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !!
Sorry, but that is total BS. Millions if not billions of lead bullets are launched out of stock Glocks each year. I wished that I knew where all these urban-legends come from
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  #11  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:54 PM
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It's not an "urban legend", it's been common knowledge for years (actually, since the first Glock 17 hit the gun stores in the mid-1980's with "Jacketed Ammunition Only" written in bold print in the manual) and it's in the manuals for both brands. Glock couldn't stress it in strong enough terms when I took their armorer's course. Shooters who wish to shoot lead in their Glocks and H&K's for whatever reasons (usually reloaders and comp. shooters) simply buy "drop in" aftermarket barrels with standard rifling.

Last edited by Az. revolver fan; 02-09-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az. revolver fan View Post
It's not an "urban legend", it's been common knowledge for years (actually, since the first Glock 17 hit the gun stores in the mid-1980's with "Jacketed Ammunition Only" written in bold print in the manual) and it's in the manuals for both brands. Glock couldn't stress it in strong enough terms when I took their armorer's course. Shooters who wish to shoot lead in their Glocks and H&K's for whatever reasons (usually reloaders and comp. shooters) simply buy "drop in" aftermarket barrels with standard rifling.
"common knowledge" is sometimes wrong.
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2012, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDee View Post
I just bought a new 442-1 and a new 642-1 yesterday. One has a late November 2011 date on the shell envelope and the other has a January 2012 date on the shell envelope. They are quietly making them both ways it would seem.

Here's the greater mystery to me: the 442-1 came in the same blue plastic box that we've all been used to seeing for years, but the 642-1 came in an old fashioned looking dark blue cardboard box! Serial numbers were factory correct and matched the gun on each box. What's up with that?
Good question...my 442-1 came in the plastic blue box last year. My Sigma .40 SVE, also ordered last year, came in the cheap-o cardboard container.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:52 AM
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Good question...my 442-1 came in the plastic blue box last year. My Sigma .40 SVE, also ordered last year, came in the cheap-o cardboard container.
Yeah, all I can figure is since S&W (as I assume do most gun mfrs.) still uses what I consider to be the antiquated "distributor" system for getting their products to the retailers, I'm guessing that maybe my two came from different distributors who each favored one type box over another and ordered enough to get their way.
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dla View Post
"common knowledge" is sometimes wrong.
Then again, there can be some truth to even an internet legend. With a little bit of research, it's easy to find out that the "smooth" rifled barrels lead easier than the old style broach rifling. That's why this conversation came up in the first place. Does that mean one should not shoot lead bullets in the new style rifling? I don't think so but I would be very careful for signs of excessive leading that can lead to an over-pressure condition. Revolvers, with the barrel-cylinder gap, are going to be more tolerant of any over-pressure condition.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Photoman44 View Post
Then again, there can be some truth to even an internet legend. With a little bit of research, it's easy to find out that the "smooth" rifled barrels lead easier than the old style broach rifling. That's why this conversation came up in the first place. Does that mean one should not shoot lead bullets in the new style rifling? I don't think so but I would be very careful for signs of excessive leading that can lead to an over-pressure condition. Revolvers, with the barrel-cylinder gap, are going to be more tolerant of any over-pressure condition.
Have you ever seen a firearm, any firearm, damaged by bore leading? I have seen a lot of damaged firearms over the years and they all fell into 3 categories: (1) Reloading error - i.e. double-charge, wrong powder, etc. (2) Barrel obstruction - squib, or mud/debris, (3) Case failure - unsupported barrels, head separation, out of battery firing, etc.

I have heard of, but not seen, that lead deposits can build up in front of the leade/start of rifling of some Glocks and prevent complete lockup before firing. This out-of-battery firing can blow out a case, give the shooter's hand an owie, and destroy the Glock frame (1911 shooters get away with busted side panels). There's lots of examples of Glock Kabooms - and there is a lot of really bad forensic science amongst forum experts discussing the source of the kabooms.

I can remember being worried about leading with a Glock 21, as all my experience had been with 1911's. I discovered over time that there is nothing special about the Glock barrel - that any leading was due to the exact same issues as with any other barrel - mainly bullet fit.

I'm sortof surprised that S&W would use poly-rifling on a small revolver since they've been doing ECM for a number of years - must be a cost savings.
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:17 PM
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What may be confusing issues here is that some folks believe that dash numbers denote only engineering changes. For anything other than a J frame, that may be true. However, on J frames dash numbers may indicate engineering changes, but they also designate specific model variances. In this specific case, the 442-1 is a current product designation for the no lock 442 with a specific S&W sku#, the 442-2 is the lock model again with a different sku#. The same is true for the 642-1 and -2.

The model 60 no dash was made through the time when barrels were pinned and then unpinned with no change in dash number. Also, the model 60 no dash was made simultaneously along side the model 60-3 usually a Ladysmith and the 60-4 usually a 3" adjustable sight model. To muddy the water even more, I know also that some engineering changes are reflected in J frame dash numbers. So, generally, I ignore dash numbers in J frames and look for the feature I want and let the dash fall where it may.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:23 PM
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Thanks everyone. It seems I've used the incorrect term for the ECM rifling in the newer smiths when I called it polygonal. I have shot over 1K rounds of hand loaded ammo with the Speer 158 gr. SWCHP and have not noticed any excessive leading in my 442-1. Thanks to Tyrod for that explaination. Thanks to everyone for their help and I'm sorry if I stirred up any trouble with using the "polygonal" term.
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Old 12-10-2016, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az. revolver fan View Post
Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certified Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.
This is another example as to why you should never accept what you read on line as gospel. My Kahr MK9 Elite 98 has polygonal rifling, as do all Kahrs with the possible exception of their economy models. Kahr issues no warning about using lead bullets in their handguns.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:42 PM
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Glock also states not to use reloads, wonder if the gun can tell the difference in factory vs. a proper safe reload. Doubt it.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
This is another example as to why you should never accept what you read on line as gospel. My Kahr MK9 Elite 98 has polygonal rifling, as do all Kahrs with the possible exception of their economy models. Kahr issues no warning about using lead bullets in their handguns.
Roger that. Seems to me that my Springfield Armory Omega 10mm with the Peter Stahl top half has polygonal rifling. I've had zero issues with that bore leading. All manufacturers warn not to use reloaded ammo because it's a variable that cannot be controlled to any extent in dealing with warranty issues. The same goes for cast bullets in polygonal rifled barrels. Polygonal rifled barrels make proper bullet sizing a bit more of a sporting proposition but no where near an impossible one. Now, if you're one of those folks which cleans and inspects your guns after every 500-600 rounds whether it needs it or not, then firing cast bullets thru barrels with non-standard rifling may not be in your best interests. For those who do proper load development and maintenance, cast bullet with Glocks or H&K should not present a problem.

Bruce

Last edited by BruceM; 12-10-2016 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 12-10-2016, 09:19 PM
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[QUOTE=DonDee;136337429]I just bought a new 442-1 and a new 642-1 yesterday. One has a late November 2011 date on the shell envelope and the other has a January 2012 date on the shell envelope. They are quietly making them both ways it would seem.

Here's the greater mystery to me: the 442-1 came in the same blue plastic box that we've all been used to seeing for years, but the 642-1 came in an old fashioned looking dark blue cardboard box! Serial numbers were factory correct and matched the gun on each box. What's up with that?[/QUOTE


My 19-8 came in a blue plastic box and years later I bought a NIB 642-1 nl and it came in a blue cardboard box. Curious....
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az. revolver fan View Post
Don't mean to get off subject but Polygonal- type rifling, to my knowledge as a certified Glock armorer, is only used in Glock and H&K handguns. This type of rifling can NEVER be used with lead bullets as it can result in dangerous increases in pressure.
A oft repeated story that is terribly false! With properly loaded cast lead bullets for routine shooting lead bullets in glocks and similarly rifles barrels are NOT some clicking time bomb.
I and many friends have fired tens of thousands of cast bullets in glocks with no surprises. Run a dry brush and a few patches down the bore every couple hundred rounds and it will keep it sufficiently clean and safe.
The problems develop when:
1) in RARE cases an extremely soft lead bullet results in excess leading which is ignored by the shooter and creates a bore constriction
AND
2) they are trying to run hot loads or a sloppy handload results in an overloaded round ( which would have damaged the gun regardless of bullet construction anyway)
OR
3) a jacketed round which has less "give" to squeeze through a lead constricted bore is fired in a heavily leaded bore
#2 keep in mind no gun company I know of condones the use of reloads which is pretty much how you end up with a lead bullet auto pistol round anyway.

In summary have some glocks shooting lead bullets blown up?
Yes, but the lead bullet alone as an independent factor is not a sole cause- there is more at play
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:38 AM
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Lead bullets overpressure??? No way. Lead bullets offer less friction, start easier and generate lower initial starting pressures than a jacketed bullet .
The only reason they say do not shoot cast in polygonal rifling is due to poor accuracy with the softer bullets. Polygonal rifling has rounded lands and soft cast bullets don't grip the lands like a jacketed would and therefore tend to not stabilize properly. At 10 yds you won't notice this, but as range increases you will. I shoot cast out of a G19 and they shoot fine, but I cast with a hard alloy beefed up with linotype for hardness.
Polygonal rifling was developed for one reason. That was to extend barrel service life.
Anyone who would let a barrel lead up to the point where it restricted enough to cause a safety issue deserves to blow himself up. Even in the worst case scenario, I'll bet you you wouldn't blow up a serviceable gun from barrel leading. Think about what happens when you fire a shotgun slug through a full choke. The same thing would happen to your pistol bullet. It would swage down to the ID of the bore just like that way oversized shotgun slug does.
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